Max is a 45-year-old queer man, dad and avid fossil hunter, who began transitioning in 1999. He has lived all over, but his longest stint thus far has been in Philadelphia, where he works as a nursepractitioner in an outpatient infectious diseases practice and specializes in caring for people living with HIV. He is passionate about too many things, some of which include harm reduction, queer history, rocks, poetry and boats.

Patrick is a 50-ish year old, black, gay trans man.  He started his medical transition in 2012 and started socially transitioning on a part-time basis around 2007 or 2008.  He discovered language that allowed him to understand himself around 2005., but struggled to take the steps to begin the process for a while.  

Jonathan, who grew up in London, England (as well as Saudi Arabia), transitioned when he was 16 years old in the late 2000s. As a teen, he was blessed with a supportive mum who was able to work with him to afford him gender affirming hormone treatment, and he has lived as male for most of his teens and all of his adulthood. Subject of Channel 4 documentary 'The Boy Who was Born A Girl', Jonathan's early medical and social transition was documented on national television which was later turned into a book of the same name that he co-wrote with his mum.

Lucas Silveira, frontman of The Cliks, now a solo artist, made history as the first openly transgender man signed by a major label with Warner Music, Tommy Boy/Silver Label in 2006. He's graced global stages alongside Cyndi Lauper, The B-52’s, Debbie Harry, Tegan and Sara, The Cult, and The New York Dolls. As co-host of Vice's Shine True in 2021, he expanded into TV.

Shawn is a black queer trans man who uses his lived experiences to inform his intersectional approach to addressing systemic issues related to access to non biased healthcare and gender affirming surgery. Shawn is a dogged advocate, talented artist, a gifted storyteller whose style is warm and engaging. Shawn has nine years of experience as the executive director of Dem Bois Inc. Dem Bois Inc is a 501(c)(3) organization with the mission to provide charitable financial assistance for female to male, FTM, trans-masculine identified person(s) of color for them to obtain chest reconstruction surgery, and or genital reassignment surgery (gender-affirming surgery) to help them on their journey to live physically, and mentally authentic lives.

Lenny Zenith is a transgender singer/songwriter and has completed his first memoir. It was edited by Kelly Caldwell (Gotham Writers Group) and Lambda Literary Award winner, Donna Minkowitz (Furious Romance, Growing up Golem).

Jai is a 47-year-old, mixed race (Italian/Sri Lankan) man with a transgender experience. Jai medically transitioned back in 2007, had his top surgery soon after and completed bottom surgery a little over 10 years ago. Jai is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been in the social services field for 25 years and as a Social Worker for 16 years. Jai believes in passing it forward, so he volunteers his time sharing his experience through the Transgender Kaiser Advisory Council, workshops at health conferences, Transmen retreats and in Childhood Development/ MFT classrooms. In his leisure time, Jai likes his simple life hanging out with his friends, working out at the gym, doing DIY home projects with his wife of 22 years and hanging out with his two Tabby cats, Nicoya and Foxy Brown.

Alexander is a 41-year old Canadian transman and father from Toronto, where he currently lives with his wife, their two young children, and rescue dog. He began his transition as a teenager in the year 2000.

An academic turned public servant, he holds a PhD in English and continues to contribute to Trans Studies. In his free time, he enjoys spending time outdoors hiking, canoeing, skiing and gardening, and is an avid reader. He is passionate about leadership and public service.

Jesse was born and raised - and still lives - in the Virginia hills known as the Appalachians. The when and where of Jesse's trans coming of age story, was not an environment that supported gender fluidity or genderqueerness. Most of the Appalachian people still see things in binaries. Black White. Male Female, or at the very least Butch Femme. Jesse was featured in the YouTube series “Climbing Mountains” by Trans ilient featuring Trans Appalachians' stories. Jesse identifies as male, but also relates to the genderqueer, non binary and feels that maybe if he was born twenty years later his path would have been different, but he is happy with his own path and journey.

Sly Bonus

[00:00:00]

Jackal: Hello everyone, welcome back. We're excited to be entering our fourth season of Stealth, a trans masculine podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. It's amazing to us that we are still going strong after two years and we'll be featuring our 50th episode this season.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to [00:01:00] that, our stories are very often

Kai: overlooked. We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways. As

Jackal: humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post

Kai: transition. If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real [00:02:00] concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy. We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Adam: Hey guys, this is Adam. I'm thrilled to welcome you to today's installment of Transitory, a. k. a. my opportunity to nerd out on archival research and hog the mic for a bit while doing a deep dive on a transmasculine figure from our recent, or not so recent history. Now, before we get started, it's important to remember that while trans people have always existed since the dawn of time, throughout the whole of human history, the label itself is a relatively recent invention.

Adam: And moreover, it was not until very recently that the [00:03:00] possibility of so called medical transition, and by that I mean taking hormones and or having any number of surgeries to physically alter primary and secondary sex characteristics of the body, Medical transition didn't really exist prior to the mid 20th century.

Adam: So when we talk about transmasculine individuals existing prior to that, we're doing a little bit of retroactive guesswork. There's a lot of debate in queer history circles about how and when we should or should not apply identity labels that exist today to people who are no longer alive to claim or reject them for themselves.

Adam: But I'd like to think that for the most part, queer historians are doing a good job understanding the spirit of the people whose lives they are documenting. If nothing else, it's a reminder that history is an imperfect process. I'm sure some of the figures we're claiming as part of our transmasculine history would argue with us if they were here today, but, you know, we're doing the best we can.

Adam: Today's transitory segment features a very recent departure from our transmasculine community. A teacher, activist, author, and Englishman named Mark Rees, who passed away this past July. Many listeners may have known Mark [00:04:00] personally, so I just want to give a heads up for anyone who is still actively grieving his loss.

Adam: Mark was born on December 6th, 1942, in Hunbridge Wells, Kent, about 50 miles southeast of London. He was the surviving child of a set of twins born extremely premature, and subsequently was plagued by chronic health issues throughout his childhood. Mark's parents, a merchant seaman named Hubert and an accomplished pianist named Alice, employed a relatively liberal attitude towards gender norms at the time, allowing Mark and his younger sister to choose toys of their own liking, at least in Mark's earlier years.

Adam: Speaking of his childhood, Mark said he always assumed he'd grow up to be a man like his father, and that, quote, I took it for granted that all girls wanted to be boys and would share my masculine interests. The onset of puberty brought with it changes that Mark found increasingly disturbing. He refused to wear bras or petticoats, leading to frequent disagreements with his mother.

Adam: Hating all things associated with being female, Mark rejected his parents encouragement to pursue careers more common to women, [00:05:00] instead matriculating to a local arts college. He struggled to find acceptance there, though, due to his androgynous appearance, and voluntarily admitted himself to a psychiatric hospital for treatment.

Adam: The doctors there weren't much of a help, dismissing him with instructions to just Quote, enjoy being a woman. Though they did give him a copy of a magazine containing an article about Georgina Turtle, a then famous trans woman at the time. From there, he applied to serve within the British Navy. His psychiatric hospitalization initially thwarted his efforts, but he finally found acceptance as a Wren.

Adam: His post lasted only two years, though, as he was discharged after confessing that he thought himself to be a homosexual, still lacking any other framework with which to understand his own identity. In 1969, the same year his father died, Mark came across an article about the International Symposium on Gender Identity, which had been held in London that year.

Adam: Mark immediately reached out to the program's administrator and arranged to be seen by the psychiatrist running the gender confirmation clinic at Charing Cross Hospital. At the time, he was in training to become a dentist, [00:06:00] and he initially planned to put off medical transition until after he'd gained his dentistry credentials.

Adam: But the pain of continuing to live as the wrong gender quickly became too much for him to bear, and in 1971 he finally started testosterone. His dentistry program and surrounding community were impressively supportive. His local vicar actually encouraged him to spend a week with an all male Anglican community before returning to his studies, just to assist with his masculine assimilation.

Adam: The acceptance by his local community led Mark to be quite public with his transition. He was featured in several news articles, opening up about his own story and helping to correct misunderstandings held by the media at the 1974 and a hysterectomy in 1975, again talking openly about his experiences with various news outlets and publications.

Adam: Transcribed Midway through his dentistry program, Mark withdrew, determining that his lack of manual dexterity lent him better suited to scholarly pursuits in language and theology. He'd always enjoyed his connections to the church, singing bass in his local choir and serving at the cathedral in [00:07:00] Canterbury.

Adam: And it should be noted, he here again maintained total transparency about his gender. He writes, It was my way of saying to everyone, Here I am, neither ashamed nor afraid. Just look and see that I am quite ordinary. Mark tried to pursue his religious calling and seek ordination. However, as his baptismal certificate indicated him as female, he was denied the opportunity to train for the priesthood, as the Church of England did not at that time ordain women, and he was, in the eyes of the law, still a woman.

Adam: This rejection marked a turning point for Mark, who went on to dedicate the rest of his life to seeking justice for trans people, both at home in the UK and abroad. In 1980, he petitioned the European Court of Human Rights to change the gender on his birth certificate. Though his petition was ultimately rejected, his case set the precedent for the case that would eventually bring victory for trans people in the landmark Goodwin and I vs.

Adam: UK trial of 2002. Mark was also instrumental in building the grassroots organization known as Press for Change, which advocated on behalf [00:08:00] of trans people for the bulk of the 1990s and went on to be the leading experts in transgender law within the UK. As the organization grew in size and scope, Mark ultimately took a backseat role, realizing he could not keep up with the technology needed to drive the movement forward.

Adam: Yet he continued to mobilize efforts through the cultivation of many high profile patrons and board members, including Jan Morris, Claire Rayner, and Desmond Tutu. Mark became a widely respected member of his community in his hometown of Rustall, and in spite of frequent torment from local transphobes, he became the first openly transgender candidate to be elected as a local councillor, serving from 1994 to 1998.

Adam: He continued to write and advocate on behalf of trans rights, and was featured in several documentaries and publications, and was recognized by numerous organizations, both locally and internationally, for his work. In 1996, Mark published a book entitled Dear Sir or Madam, detailing his life and struggles, which was and is heralded as one of the great trans autobiographies alongside the likes of Jameson Green's Becoming a Visible Man and [00:09:00] Lou Sullivan's We Both Laughed in Pleasure.

Adam: Mark remained active in his advocacy work well into his 60s and 70s. When the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2004, despite having become a somewhat disenchanted agnostic by then, he organized a church service for trans people and their allies at St. Anne's Cathedral in London. While Mark's quiet humility and tireless advocacy work make him an unlikely target for mudslinging, he alas did not manage to escape the vitriol of his homeland's TERF movement.

Adam: Mark had turned 60 two years prior to the passage of the Gender Recognition Act, and as such, he had begun to receive his TERF. State pension under the age eligibility requirement for women, which was 60, had he opted to re-register as mail for which state pension started at 65, his pension would've been stopped.

Adam: This the turfs argued offered incontrovertible proof of the fact that Mark was a fraud, manipulating the system for his own personal financial gain. Mind you, this was a man who had dedicated his life to service, even after being barred from pursuing his spiritual [00:10:00] calling due to his legal sex. But yes, the TERFs maintain that his entire life was a ruse, since he did not leap at the opportunity to step into his legal masculinity the moment he was permitted to do so.

Adam: I can't even talk about this without feeling my blood pressure go up, and admittedly I only had the stomach to read a couple of posts about this on Gender Critical before I felt the need to go dry heave. Why TERFs continue to believe that trans people are the enemy when it is so painfully and abundantly clear that their actual beef is with patriarchy just blows my fucking mind.

Adam: I do so wish they would pause in their hateful fear mongering just long enough to actually connect the dots here. but I digress. Oh, and Mark did in fact pursue legal sex change in 2009 as an act of closure commemorating the re release of his autobiography, but of course that timing just served to fan the flames of the TERF's vitriolic rhetoric.

Adam: Mark was diagnosed with an inoperable heart condition at the age of 65, and effectively told that he could drop dead at any [00:11:00] moment. While he was Understandably, rocked by this news, after a few weeks he decided he might as well get back on his bike and continue going for his walks in the woods, figuring they were as good a way of any as dying.

Adam: He even took on a new teaching position, his first job in many years, demonstrating his fervent belief in the importance of lifelong learning. Mark passed away on July 26th,

Adam: Okay guys, that's all I've got for this week's installment of Transitory. I hope you'll tune in next time for more tales from our transmasculine archives. Stay safe and be well.

Adam: Today's interview is with Sly. Sly is a Toronto based queer and non binary trans activist, writer, and psychotherapist. He is an early trailblazer in non binary trans health advocacy and is currently working on his PhD. Sly's transniversary is 2004. 2004 was a leap year, and the year President [00:12:00] George W.

Adam: Bush beat out John Kerry to win re election. Martha Stewart was convicted of felony charges for lying to federal prosecutors and sentenced to five months in prison, and Mark Zuckerberg launched Facebook from his Harvard dorm room. 2004 was also the year NASA's Spirit rover landed safely on Mars. In sports news, Athens hosted the 28th Olympics, in which US swimmer Michael Phelps set the world record for most medals won by a single competitor at the Games.

Adam: The 2004 Super Bowl will forever be remembered as the year Janet Jackson experienced her scandalous wardrobe malfunction during the halftime show. The Boston Red Sox won their first World Series in 86 years, breaking the curse of the Bambino, and Lance Armstrong won his sixth consecutive Tour de France.

Adam: In LGBTQ news, Massachusetts became the first state to legalize same sex marriage, and the Gender Recognition Bill passed in the UK. Top grossing films of 2004 included Shrek 2, Spider Man 2, and Harry Potter and the Prisoner [00:13:00] of Azkaban. At the Oscars, Lord of the Rings Return of the King took home Best Picture, with Sean Penn taking home Best Actor for his role in Mystic River and Charlize Theron winning Best Actress for her performance in Monster.

Adam: We'll lead in this episode with music by singer songwriter Eli Conley. His new album, Searching for What's True, will be out soon. Eli offers online singing and songwriting classes for queer and trans folks and allies. Find out more at eliconley. com. That's E L I C O N L E Y dot com.

Adam: Gotta put on a full face some makeup. Gotta match my earrings to my belt. I gotta style my hair just right, squeeze in the heels to feel so tight. I gotta be better than myself.[00:14:00]

Adam: I scroll my phone while making breakfast

Adam: Perfect pictures flashing by I choose a filter for my post I pick the one that hides the most Trying to look better than myself Don't let them see me Cause I don't think that I would measure up Don't let them see me because being me is never quiet.

Jackal: Hey, so welcome back to Stealth a Transmasculine Podcast. We're here with Sly. How you doing today, Sly?

Sly: Oh, I'm doing wonderful. Thanks so much for having me.

Jackal: Thank you. Thank you. We got connected because we interviewed Rupert in Canada, kind of the [00:15:00] trans elder of elders and he connected us and referred us to you, as another, trans elder, although you're on the younger side of that.

Jackal: And we want to really welcome you another Canadian here on our show. You go by he, they pronouns, right? Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to the he, they pronoun part of your trans masculinity?

Sly: Absolutely, thanks again for having me. Back in the day, you know, I'm 45, going on 46, and, when I was coming into my understanding of myself as being trans, it was in the early 2000s, and I didn't really have any role models for what that was And the context of what I saw out there was binary so in the, the limited representation that there was of trans men at the time the conversations online were very binary oriented and did not really allow for various things like claiming your femaleness or claiming your history claiming your, let's say, Butch Dyke identification.

Sly: And at the time I was identifying those ways. And so, part of [00:16:00] my evolution of self was to sort of push back against people's ideas about, What it means to be trans, what it means to be transmasculine whether or not I identified as wanting to be a man in a binary sense. And so part of my, my self claiming was to, yeah, create space for non binary identity long before people were accepting of those categories.

Jackal: And probably before the non binary label kind of even existed. I'm not sure when it really came into like popularity, but in the early 2000s, I don't think it was

Sly: so that is part of my activism because no one at the time was validating this word as as a proper identity category. We were okay with gender queer. The word was around, like, people would talk about being, you know. Like, as an adjective, I am not binary, people would often say, not binary. And I'm sure that trans folks who are non binary have used this language well before, like, probably since the 1800s. , but [00:17:00] we don't have that necessarily documented, they just use other language, like, third gender, and neutrois, and things like that. But in the early 2000s, people were not validating this non binary category as its own standalone identity category and people would often refer to genderqueerness or things like that.

Sly: And so, a lot of my early activism was to, parse out, like, what is, what does it mean to be a trans man? What does it mean to be a butch dyke or, or someone that's leaning towards that and being genderqueer? And why are these categories forced to be separated in the ways that they are when I, what, I kind of identify.

Sly: As a whole person and yeah, it was, was creating room to think critically about why we have to separate ourselves out. And part of that was to say, no, this is valid. Non binary is a trans identity. And that took about 10 years to sort of push out there into the world and then incorporate into my healthcare advocacy.

Jackal: Awesome. Well, I'm glad that you see yourself as a whole person. I like that mentality in general. Like that's a [00:18:00] very integrated way of looking at self. Right. So how, yeah. How did you learn about trans masculine identities? I know you said you didn't have any role models. So like, you know, it's really hard to come to an identity as you would know, when you don't have examples of what that means.

Jackal: So how did you learn about trans masculine identities?

Sly: 100 percent I mean, I think when I was a young kid, I knew that I was a tomboy. And I actually identified as a boy and I only saw myself as growing up to be a man. So funnily enough, I was very binary minded when I was a young child. But then, you know, I was told by the world around me that I was a girl and a female and I had to, you know, become a woman.

Sly: And that was a whole process, right of like, basically being forced to submit to that. And so, By the time I was in my 20s, I was like, You know, I've done, I, I'm not feeling so great you know, in myself. I knew what I was expected to perform in terms of [00:19:00] being a lady and being a woman in the world, but it wasn't for me.

Sly: And I started to unpack these layers and I started to sort of explore my sexual identity in the early two thousands. And then around 2003 I was working in mental health care at the time and there was a Georgia straight

Jackal: article.

Sly: article, yes.

Sly: I lose my words often. Yeah, there was, there was a cover story, actually, on trans men. And I had no idea that trans men existed. And there was three trans guys in their early twenties on the cover, standing proudly on the Georgia straight in 2003. And I was like, what the hell is this? Oh my God. It rocked my world.

Sly: And I was like, there are options here, because in the 80s, when I was a kid, it was like all talk shows, all nonsense, and all like circus sideshow, you know, freak stories about trans women and amplifying the terror, terribleness of those, stereotypes and stigmatizing narratives.

Sly: I knew of trans women by going out into the gay bars and stuff like that, and I saw them around, and I really was drawn to them, but I didn't know anything about trans men being a possibility. So, that [00:20:00] Georgia Straight article let me know that it was possible, and then it got my wheels churning.

Sly: That was in 2003.

Jackal: So how did your own transition work? Like I know you said that it took like, you know, around 10 years, like. When you identified to us, you said that you socially transitioned around 2001, I believe you said, and then you started socially medically transitioning around 2009 or so.

Jackal: So that's a good, eight years, nine years. What was the process, how did you go from your social transition to your medical transition? And then what were the steps in Canada that you needed to take in order to medically transition?

Sly: Yeah, so, it was around 2003, actually, that 2001 I came out as, like, sort of lesbian, queer, but I never, I always would claim these titles, like, lesbian or something, it would be like, oh, well, I must be a lesbian, because I'm a tomboy, and I am attracted sexually to women, but then these other pieces around sexuality, because, again, it was either you were a lesbian woman, full stop, or you were a gay man, full stop, and, and I always was attracted to men [00:21:00] as well, you know.

Sly: So I never could figure, figure out myself in these binaries, but at the time, you know, I, in 2003, when I saw that, you know, trans men could exist, I started to look online, and like, there was like these, you know, online groups that were very secretive, like, with stealth trans men in them, on LiveJournal, talking about their experiences, and I kind of dipped my toes into these spaces and, you know, And people were very hostile towards claiming any aspect of your femaleness. and so I immediately, it was just very, for me, very violent emotionally and psychologically because I wasn't about shame and like forcing myself through shame in order to get somewhere. And that's what I received by the way people were having these conversations amongst themselves. So I didn't feel welcome, and then I, I just kind of spent a lot of time online on, on like, some lesbian spaces actually, just like, playing around with words, like genderqueer, [00:22:00] lesbian, you know, started to Look at this non binary term, and I was like, you know, how do, how do other people identify because I figured I had things in common with other masculine dykes or queer women or whatever, but that there was maybe something different about me but I wasn't sure what it was so I was like testing these words on these forums and then people would have very, again, like strong reactions to the language that I was fleshing out so if I said you know I don't really identify as a lesbian it doesn't fit for me.

Sly: Again, people would have this, these big angry reactions to like, well, what do you mean, you know, you're a woman, I'm a woman, you know, they're just really holding on to these categories. And I would say I don't really identify as a woman, but I don't really identify as a man. And, and it was just like, Just hostility.

Sly: And then I started creating a blog which is still online, but I had to go anonymous because I was immediately harassed within like about two weeks of [00:23:00] my posts getting popular around non binary transness. I got doxxed or whatever. I got harassed and accused of various things and it kind of shut down my writing process.

Sly: But anyways that's a long story short. So, There wasn't really non binary transition available, right, between the early 2000s, not for me, not that I was aware of, and and the early 2010s or whatever, and so I spent a lot of time thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, and I, and I outed myself in 2004 in the workplace and in my communities that I was trans, and, you know, I was thinking of, like, you know, using gender neutral pronouns, and I started to implement that, but I, I I don't know.

Sly: I fell short of like deciding for myself whether or not I wanted to go on hormones because people were, if they did have access to medical transition, they, they were expected to conform to a binary transition. And that looked like going on a full dose of testosterone, getting all the surgeries, quote unquote, including removing all of your reproductive organs and [00:24:00] including getting bottom surgery as a requirement and as well as top surgery, at least that was.

Sly: That was the going criteria based on the DSM at the time making transness and gender identity, you know, itself a mental illness category. And so I was like, I don't know if I qualify. I don't know if I'm trans enough. I don't know if I am trans according to how these people want me to transition. So I just kind of held off, held off, held off.

Sly: And I was seeking out, Actually, some people's stories on YouTube, there's one or two people that were more genderqueer leaning in their transition process and they were kind of going rogue, and they were just going on low dose testosterone. And I was sort of following their stories I was like okay this is possible like people are at self advocating.

Sly: There's literally one or two of these guys on on YouTube and they were just experimenting with the liminal space the space in between, you know, becoming a man and being who they were. When I moved to Toronto in 2009, is when I pursued healthcare because I had [00:25:00] enough time to think through and theorize what non binary meant for me.

Sly: And then understand that I could reconcile my whole self. I didn't have to just disavow, you know, my female history. I, I know that I'm female. That's obvious to me. I have a certain body. But the way the world thinks of your body as a female or who you should be as a social being, I Didn't fit for me.

Sly: And that's what I spent a lot of time unpacking. And then in 2009 and 10, I found medical care to self-advocate for a low dose physical transition and, and that sort of thing.

Kai: You're really talking about a time when you're right, there wasn't language, the word non binary, I think so many of us were threatened, if we weren't trans enough, then we wouldn't be credible in the eyes of the medical field or the mental health field, and we would not be allowed to access care that was affirming.

Kai: And we already had to go through so many hoops and There's such a stigma out there, but I think within our own communities, we went after each [00:26:00] other. There's a lot of posturing, there was a lot of hyper masculinity, maybe toxic masculinity that I think you're touching on a bit. And I think the people who were on the fringes, who were expressing themselves in a more feminine way or a more non traditional masculine way, whatever that means, you're touching on something that just makes me, it always pained me to hear.

Kai: what I perceive to be, this is Kai speaking for myself,

Sly: Hundred

Kai: perceive that as like a self loathing and a denial of history, and I also want to legitimize that because some, some trans guys really do not connect with that at all, , but from my experience, I, I bring it all to myself, to my, and that has been a process for sure,

Sly: Mm-Hmm.

Jackal: I think that also talking about like an internalized misogyny, like I think we live in a misogynistic culture and both in the U S and Canada, I can't speak for the parts of the world, but even the guys that are [00:27:00] from the very binary guys to the non binary trans guys, we still suffer this internalized misogyny that we've been force fed like through our entire existence and coming to terms with that and trying to heal that has been a real process, and that turns into a lot of times the toxic masculinity piece and the gatekeeping and the, , just the negativity that you talked about that you and Kai are both talking about.

Sly: I totally agree, and I think that because the structures around psychiatry and medicine were very withholding and very judgmental and very persecutory of trans people, really kind of tormenting people and putting them through these hoops and barriers and these very torturous processes to perform like a monkey to get cookies, you know, I think that it really, and the scarcity of that care really, really created more of that pressure to disavow your femaleness or your femininity.

Sly: But for me, it was a bit different. It was less about [00:28:00] internalized misogyny because it was more about internalized phobia around masculinity, to be quite frank, because I, I, I had reconciled and created space even since a young child to be a kind of a female that was masculine. And I was still working on that and that was okay with me.

Sly: And I always knew I had these soft. And again, these words, the feminine masculine. Thanks. They're so dependent on each other and they're so false. So I recognize that but like for me I always thought I don't fit in, in many ways. I'm a soft, if I'm a soft, if I'm a masculine person in a female body, I'm a soft masculine person.

Sly: I have these hyper masculine traits in terms of behavior and Play and preferences and dress, but my internal world is very soft. I'm very emotional. I'm very perceptive, very empathetic, very caring and nurturing. And I didn't have any role models for that. And I was taught by everyone around me, including trans [00:29:00] binary male circles that like you, you had to perform this aggressive masculinity.

Sly: And I always revolted against that also because of my backstory with my father. And and so it was more like I was afraid to fully embrace an aesthetic of maleness and masculinity because I feared becoming a toxic man.

Jackal: That brings me to, that brings me to a different question, which is your aesthetic, right? Like, so a lot of us transition because we visually don't appear like we want to appear in the mirror,

Sly: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Jackal: like, what was the aesthetic that you needed to fulfill your trans masculinity, regardless of the kind of like emotional soft, side of things, what was that visual that you needed?

Sly: Honestly, at the time, if I could have had a way of physically transitioning to have a leaner body, More masculine shaped body, like get rid of the, all the things that, you want [00:30:00] from hormone therapy, which is like, get rid of your hips, have a, basically a fully male body, Yeah, just like enhancing the traits that I already have, like musculature, leanness, you know, hand size even.

Sly: I just, I didn't like the softness and the curviness of my body. I didn't like my chest, but I, I, I was small chested, so I wasn't sure if I could live with that.

Jackal: Mm.

Sly: And I was debating that for a long time. I just wanted to be more androgynous looking. And if I could look like I was passing as androgynous, that probably would have been enough for me. But, Because I didn't really, in my early twenties, think, Oh, I really want a beard. You know what I mean? I really want to look like a man. That was sort of like, secondary for me. I, I, as a small child, I wanted those things, but by the time I hit my 20s, I had done all this, like, well, I am female. I had, I was forced to accept my femaleness

Jackal: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

Sly: thinking that there was no possibility to transition, so I had made [00:31:00] peace with the female aspects of myself and didn't really put a lot of weight into, passing as a man, whatever that looked like for people.

Sly: So it wasn't actually my primary goal. It was more like I can't live with the way my body feels. And like I, I had coped by doing extreme workouts and it just was too much. I couldn't, I couldn't do it anymore.

Jackal: Yeah. It's interesting that you, you talk about this because for me, and I've told this on, on this podcast before, or maybe directly with Kai, that you know, if non-binary had been a category when I transitioned in the nineties, I might. I might not have transitioned. I might've

Sly: There you go.

Jackal: and stayed in that.

Jackal: Cause I was androgynous. I was super androgynous. I was very like, kind of like femmey androgynous, but I, I enjoyed my myself and I enjoyed my visual. I didn't like, I like the social, it was, it was like the, the social dysphoria for me that like totally [00:32:00] fucked with my head.

Sly: That's right.

Jackal: was, that was my, my big thing.

Jackal: Kai has a question.

Kai: Yeah, when I hear you describe the path that you took to get here and your relationship Gender identity as it shifted over time, particularly like as a young person. And then as you grew, grew up, you're talking about the representation of masculinity and, and you didn't want to emulate. Some of that, right?

Kai: And you weren't, and it doesn't sound like you were around other trans men who were comfortable expressing the various shades of themselves, you know? Have you since come to connect with them? Because I find that so That connection, this resonates with me deeply. And I really did not want to mirror a lot of the, my father's worst traits and we were also brought up in the time of androgyny, you know, like,

Sly: Mm

Kai: anyway, so I glommed onto the [00:33:00] first trans man who was bi, openly bi, who was, who was very much, had a full array of behaviors, and I wasn't embracing BS binary stuff that

Sly: Mm hmm, mm hmm, mm

Kai: glommed on to this person, and I feel so glad that I did, that I had him.

Kai: He has since gone on and de transitioned. So it was just a real interesting process, you know, so she's out there and I'm grateful. So have you since found that the community has shifted a bit? Have you connected with other trans and non binary folks who are maybe a little more at ease expressing themselves?

Sly: You know, I really situate, I think, I think this is a great question, it's really nuanced, and I really situate myself as an intergenerational interlocutor, someone that's kind of displaced, because I didn't fit the, your generation, essentially, right? I didn't fit the norms of the generation before me, and or Rupert's generation, like [00:34:00] I wasn't conforming, and then people weren't accepting. Non binariness for the time that I was exploring and creating that space. So, there was one or two people that I would kind of like connect with around like, hey, do you feel this way? Because I did know one or two trans men who were binary oriented in real life, but they weren't really super available to talk openly about their experiences.

Sly: I think they were just you know, kind of stealth and keeping it together and trying to go about their business. And so I didn't really have a chance to process or talk with them. And then I was trying to find other people who ostensibly were in the lesbian world, who, who maybe were non binary and, and having these same ideas, but they were so few and far between or like contesting, you know, the separation between being lesbian , and mask in some ways or non binary and, and transness.

Sly: And those people were rare. And then that was over like nine or eight years. And then when I moved to Toronto, [00:35:00] I kind of made an effort. To create more space and attract more people. I didn't know anybody in the city at all. And I started making these spaces where, you know, event spaces, community spaces, neighborhood floor hockey for like trans and non binary people and, and queer folks.

Sly: And, I created a Like a butch femme salon to contest the lesbian orientation of butch femme and to open it up to trans women and trans men and, non binary people. Moving forward, like, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, I was doing healthcare advocacy, but like still online people were so separate in Facebook groups, it was like trans men who are, 50 plus, and then finally when non binary came along, they were very opposed to, you know, binary men, and it was just like, Every time I tried to create community, it, it didn't work.

Sly: Like, it was toxic, and people didn't get me, and it's like, finally now I think people understand, but it's too late for me. Like, I'm done trying.[00:36:00]

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah.

Sly: I'm like, over it. Don't care anymore.

Jackal: Bridge. Yeah. Bridge building is hard. Bridge building is super hard. Like people are really connected to their thing

Kai: I think it's interesting because within the various communities you're describing, there's a lot of play with gender, whether there's butchness or kink age play, whatever it is. And there's just so many different shades, drag Kings, so we're doing it all that time that the dance, and, and then if you, if you try to like,

Jackal: space

Kai: it or process or create space for it or welcome,

Jackal: It's rejected.

Sly: Yeah.

Kai: Right. It's like, where do you, where do you go? Right. It's

Jackal: I'm a drag king.

Sly: Yep.

Kai: It brings back these feelings. It's like kind of wince, you know, because I really felt a lot of that coming at me, but also I felt like shame. And you talked about not embracing shame, you know, and, and having a lot of shame because I wasn't butch enough I never identified as butch.

Kai: Other people did I was like tomboy and [00:37:00] boy, I never was like, I'm going to be a man. I don't describe myself as a man. It's such an interesting conversation. I really appreciate it.

Jackal: So how do you think your social standings impacted all of this? Like your race, your class, your abilities, your sexual identity, even like, how did it impact your ability to transition your desire to transition your fears about transition?

Sly: Yeah, I think, I think being perceived and read in the world as white or Caucasian facilitated my ability to claim a non binary space in transness, and I think, I think it's easier if you have white privilege to transition, I'm not contending with that. Legacies of systemic race based oppression.

Sly: You know what I mean? I'm not dealing with that in my family of origin. And, you know, what it's like to feel the pressures of whiteness societally to conform. So I think that means more access, and I, and I have more space to pursue this kind of rogue identity space and advocate for that verbally.

Sly: I didn't have [00:38:00] communities to account to that my family was connected to, for example, and I could leave my family and behind, even though it was painful and in ways I could, I could separate myself, it was not easy, but I did it, but I think, and, and yeah, there's so many ways that that affects access, you know, whiteness and white privilege class based.

Sly: I think my family was working class to middle class. My father was a welder, so I didn't have. I mean, I think class is a double edged sword. If I had, let's say, a wealthy family upbringing and intergenerational wealth, maybe that would have been a barrier to me transitioning, right? Because I would be expected to conform to the expectations of my family and class and power and certainly so. I think that it's hard to say, it's hard to say

Kai: Right. Our show is called Stealth, a transmasculine podcast. And we've interviewed people who have various levels of disclosure. And so I want to talk to you about that. What does stealth mean to you, Sly?

Sly: I've I've sort of deliberately [00:39:00] chosen not to be stealth in the public eye. So I, I, I opened a private practice as a psychotherapist, social worker in 2013, and I deliberately put forth that I was non binary trans because there was no one around. And I, I wasn't going to transition to as a person and professional in the world and be expected to conform again.

Sly: I didn't want to be expected to be related to as a man, so I always had to insert my narrative and my reality. But does that mean I go around everywhere every day claiming, Oh hey everyone, I'm non binary trans. If I know them, If I know them, yes. But if I don't know them, I'm not announcing it to the world because that's dangerous.

Kai: Yeah.

Sly: I can't just walk up, you know, to my neighborhood coffee shop and start talking about being trans because I don't know how they view me, and I don't want to experience more violence, right? So, it's selective disclosure on an interpersonal basis. Constantly. But that [00:40:00] doesn't mean I'm stealth. It means I'm fucking smart.

Jackal: Love it. Love it,

Kai: Thank you. Have there been times in your life where you lived a less, where you were a little bit less apt to disclose about your gender?

Sly: Well, you know, when I'm out in a rural setting, outside of Toronto, in a smaller town, again, I didn't want anyone, even the neighbours, to know that I was trans. And only in the last three months did I disclose that, because of various circumstances. But like, because once that information gets out, Basically, the whole town knows.

Sly: And then what? Like, are they transphobic? Are they gonna wanna harm me? And that's really real. I've already experienced lots of nonsense violence wise, and I don't want anymore. So, yeah, you have to be very thoughtful about how much how much visibility and who you can trust.

Jackal: Yeah, that's

Kai: yeah, I agreed. And I think you're describing good [00:41:00] judgment really reading the room, you know, because our, our lives are at stake. And I, I really appreciate you sharing that. And when you think about over time, has, has your level of disclosure shifted?

Sly: I think I've always been confused by how people receive me. When I was in the beginning of my physical transition, I was passing as male, but, and I assumed because everyone in lesbian community told me, Oh, you're going to transition and get all this male privilege. There was all this animosity.

Sly: Right. And then as I was transitioning, I thought I was being read as male and I was, but then I had some femininity to my look, to my aesthetic, because. I didn't look like a rugged man in particular. I had a pretty face. I had pretty blue eyes. I had soft skin. I looked very androgynous. And, and so the first six years of my transition other men rejected me.

Sly: Other men targeted me for, for violence on the street. The disclosure piece is more like, what are people even seeing, because I'm really fucking confused. [00:42:00] Everywhere I go, someone sees something else. And I'm just trying to live my life. So, if I was dealing with strangers or the public, I would just, obviously not be disclosing anything.

Sly: I'm trying to understand, how the fuck am I being read right now? I don't get it. You're, you're thinking I'm a gay man, and so you're hostile towards me. You're thinking I'm some kind of feminine being as a male subject, so therefore you have this this hatred for me. Other people wouldn't care, you know?

Sly: So trying to be a casual subject going about my daily life over the years changed a lot and I, I've just tried to like observe people and see how the fuck are they reacting to me right now and just try to be civil. And try to not, I try to understand what this man code is all about. That took a long time.

Kai: When you figure that out, let us know.

Jackal: Please, please.

Sly: think I finally got it and it's just like, I don't know. It's just gross. I don't know. Okay.

Jackal: yeah, some

Kai: almost like we can't win if we're a masculine presenting woman or a butch woman we're going to be [00:43:00] targeted because we're not feminine enough. And then if we're, if exhibit feminine femininity in any way as a masculine presenting person, we're, we're going to be targeted too. So thank you so much for describing that nuance.

Jackal: Hey, , we like to focus on like your, your things that have happened to you post-transition. So, yeah, because our life isn't actually all about transitioning, right? Like that's a part of who we are, but it's not all of who we are. So what are some of the milestones you think you've had in your life post-transition and the, those can be both successes or challenges.

Sly: Mm hmm. Well, just as a person, I, transition took up a lot of space, unfortunately, because of people's ignorance, but, but as a person, as a human, I just keep on chugging, right? Like, I, I have my personal goals, like, I got myself safe and secure housing when I had no, you know, No guarantees that I would achieve that for myself.

Sly: I, I try to focus on being a caring, nurturing community member and, and like extending whatever [00:44:00] access that I have to others. So if I have safe housing, I'm going to make sure that my friends and chosen family have safe housing, like leveraging the resources that I'm acquiring to benefit others. So, Yeah, I've pursued school, you know, I'm in a PhD program now.

Sly: That's a milestone for me. My master's was a milestone. Opening my private practice was a milestone, creating that space for our community and others outside of being queer and trans as well. That's been a huge milestone. And those, that's enough. That's, that's a lot. You

Jackal: is a lot. Congratulations that you know, going striving for a PhD is incredible. I know that and opening your own practice and getting your master's like both like just kudos on all of that. So, tell us a little bit about your life now. Like what,

Sly: hmm.

Jackal: what is living your life authentically mean today?

Sly: I think at this juncture, I mean, I'm trying to settle more into just. Not fighting as much, right? Like, [00:45:00] I feel like I've been through a gauntlet, and it's been a long, it's been a decades long gauntlet, and now I'm just like, what does it mean to not constantly fight for space and acknowledgement of my reality as like a valid one?

Sly: It's like getting my nervous system to understand like actually you are more than what people have tried to erase and you have value. So like trying to find my voice as a writer, trying to find my voice as an academic, trying to find my lane in advocating for still about trans rights in particular, but like Bringing more fullness of me as a person to that work and project rather than just being flattened constantly.

Sly: And I don't know exactly what that's going to look like, but. It means less fighting, but more holding steady.

Jackal: Nice. That's a beautiful statement. It makes you more whole too. Like that acknowledges your wholeness as you had claimed [00:46:00] in the very beginning. So

Sly: I'm a very, thank you. I'm a very playful person. I'm trying to give myself more life, right? Like I like to ice skate. I like to do weird things like going you know, even though I'm like in my mid forties, go try trapeze. I like, you know, I like a very physical person. I love animals. Like I try to live that robust and, and, and full playful life.

Sly: But a lot of it is like, I'm, I'm working to achieve other goals, right? Like those. The academic milestones are on the table.

Jackal: Well, good luck with all of it. Thank you.

Kai: It's interesting to hear you describe this sort of letting go of the fight, and just settling a little bit coming as you continue to live. You've described a few, several milestones that you've had. Are there a couple that stand out that you're, they're most proud of?

Sly: Yeah, I think with my private practice, I, I sort of took on the role of being a clinical supervisor and a consultant and a trainer. And I trained a generation of new up and coming queer and trans therapists that were not really out there. [00:47:00] And so just taking on that clinical supervision role and consulting and training when, again, people were very Invalidating of my knowledge and, and trans non binary stance, that stance and that perspective, I think that's a huge win for our community and saying that, yes, we are here, we are valid, and we have our own perspectives.

Sly: I think that's the biggest. Success that I could hope for, because there was nothing backing me up, right? Like, I mean, other trans people being and existing and advocating and their activism. Absolutely, I'm standing on that. But the specificity of my social location, I think, leveraging my own ability to validate myself and others is a huge success in terms of bringing that to psychotherapy and social work.

Kai: Thank you. You reminded me of Gaines we had on our show who's in medical school to be a urologist and he wants to provide, he's going to provide gender affirming care it's interesting because the way he described it is very similar to you. It's like, you're [00:48:00] bringing people up and you're within community, how important your representation is within the medical mental health fields, right?

Kai: And that has shifted from when I was younger. We were, the message I got was you don't disclose because you're not going to be seen as credible because you're, you have an agenda, right? Like you're somehow nefarious. And so can't possibly be an out trans therapist, who's going to provide gender affirming care and do trainings because you're less than

Jackal: You're not objective.

Kai: just am inspired by what you're doing.

Kai: And, and that cross generational intersect, you're sort of in between generations, you're rocking it. Okay. Like, yeah, completely. So I love that. All right. When you think about your future, because it sounds like you're really open to exploration and you're figuring out, what do you imagine it might be like?

Sly: Yeah, I think, I think I'm hoping that it will be more publishing because to your point of, [00:49:00] the credibility factor, I, I found that the more experience and knowledge again, the more people who are cisgendered and wanting to maintain the status quo. And not seeing non binary and trans ness move society forward they, they get more intractable.

Sly: They, they want to clamp down on trans ness. Shutting down and suppressing my particular advantage, because as a mental health provider and being trans and non binary, I could validate everything that people are bitching about. I'm sorry. Everything that people are having a backlash and anti trans uprising against, I can debunk, and I can show you all the information as to why. Those perspectives and their anti trans ideologies are false, and that's what I'm going to be doing in academia, a small part of that work. Yeah, it's like, the smarter I get, the more knowledge I have, the more people want to suppress and erase the knowledge and marginalize it and say, you are not a credible subject. And that's why I'm in the academy, to say, actually, here's my knowledge, [00:50:00] me as one single person. In a sea of other trans non binary people and just trans people or whatever. Take this and put it in the medical system and shut the fuck up. Like, here it is. Quit shutting it down. You, you say it doesn't exist, but you've actively tried to deny that it exists.

Sly: Well, here it is.

Jackal: Instead of having the Harry Benjamin standards, we now have the sly standards,

Sly: well, just a little piece of cake, you know what I mean? Here's a slice. Here's a slice. Take it, do it, do something with it, right? Like, cause everyone's like,

Jackal: of sly standards.

Sly: ugh,

Kai: we need, we need it.

Sly: The gatekeeping persists, right? For example, in the province of Ontario, cis people are doing this provincial health standards trans thing, and it's like, girl, you didn't even know I existed.

Sly: How the hell are you making these decisions?

Jackal: It's so funny. Maybe this is the stretch, but it reminds me of, All of the men in politics voting for women to get the right to vote, [00:51:00] right? It's

Sly: hmm. Yeah.

Jackal: were no women

Sly: Right. Right. Right. Right. 100 percent Yes. Yes.

Jackal: know, like, all of these men are like, Oh, well, women don't, women can't, women, blah, blah, blah.

Jackal: It took forever for women to get the right to vote because men were doing it. It's like trans people, , like we are the experts on our stuff, not cisgendered people. Please stop making laws and legislation about us because you don't have a clue. Like you don't have a clue.

Sly: Well, and cis people focus on medical and physical, and, and to the total detriment of the psychological, the social, the emotional, and that's the knowledge area that I have explored, and it's like, that's what I want to bring forward, because they're like, , all these people are detransitioning.

Sly: It's only a small percentage, but let's say they, they are. Mm hmm. Well, why is that? Well, because we've only sold physical and medical as like the thing that's gonna relieve you. And maybe that's not the case for most for some people, right? Like, we need to attend [00:52:00] to more aspects of selfhood.

Kai: I just think you're really blowing my mind because you're so right. That credibility piece you're talking about if I'm hearing you right, you talking about people in Toronto who are maybe trying to create or implement policy of some sort.

Kai: And I don't know, sometimes movements think, Oh, I have this great idea. I'm going to do this new thing. And it's not new at all. Right. So

Sly: hahaha.

Kai: they don't know who you are and all the work that you've done. You've been busy and you've been really working it and you've been dogged and you have, I happen to live next to a professor who's a clinician who's very much into gender affirming care and I hear he has a cohort, he has a group of

Sly: Right.

Kai: kind of support do you have, whether it's an academia and your life, I mean, how are you supported now, Sly, in your life?

Sly: thank God I have more support now than I ever had throughout this entire time because it's been extremely isolating and it's taken a huge toll. And [00:53:00] there's a lot of risk involved in claiming space that no one wants you to claim, right? So in at this juncture in academia, I'm only in academia now because of a prof that I had in 2009.

Sly: She is a straight woman and she has been my champion and she has, maintained a human connection with me outside of academia and that's the only reason why I'm back in academia, because I couldn't be pursuing a PhD when people wouldn't validate my work. Perspective as a non binary trans person.

Sly: So I waited 14 years and every single year she was like, do you, Hey so did you want to try for a PhD? And I would be like, Theoretically, yes, I do, because I have lots to share and lots to explore. And I want to contribute more to the world in, in research and, and that kind of knowledge system.

Sly: But the, the, the academy, the violence of the academy was so profound. I couldn't imagine. stepping in there and being a non person and non credible subject. So now it's available. [00:54:00] And so my, my faculty the professors, my peers, my colleagues are wonderfully supportive. I have supportive chosen family that I held onto for many years.

Sly: And they're not trans, they're just queer people and, or straight people. I have a couple of select trans friends and, and actually a friend from high school that I reconnected with over the weekend that, transitioned a little bit later than me, but like from a small town, it's like the fact that we were friends and we both transitioned is remarkable and we have so much in common now,

Kai: And you mentioned animals. Do you have any pets? Just because we're animal freaks here.

Sly: , I have a kitty. He's very floofy. He's very smart and very bored easily. He's very affectionate.

Kai: I'm glad you're supported. I am also glad to hear that. Your allies and your champions have been really encouraging you nudging you. And it's not only within our community communities, right? So I really am glad that she fought for you and that she encouraged you

Sly: 100%. And Rupert's been a wonderful connection too. Rupert is, and I [00:55:00] have stayed in contact and he's, he's always the one connecting me to things. I don't have those connections. So really

Kai: how did you meet him?

Sly: Yeah, we were working the same health center. It was like focused on LGBTQ health care

Sly: and his team was more working with the queer community and I was more like general health care. But yeah, we were both mental health counselors. At this urban, family health team, essentially. And doing trans care as a part of that work.

Kai: It's interesting because Rupert comes from the definite, like different generation from us and definitely from you. And. Man, he's cool, know,

Sly: Yeah!

Kai: live and let live

Sly: The ability to hold your ground when no one, literally no

Jackal: Yeah.

Sly: you know, was around to say, Hey, you exist. It's remarkable.

Jackal: yeah, totally. The thing that bothers me is that there's all of these, Ideas about all the benefits that the trans people are going to get, so we need to legislate out trans, trans athletes, because they're going to be so good at it

Sly: [00:56:00] Yeah, sure.

Jackal: , or protecting youth against some, nefarious transness.

Jackal: And we stop focusing on things like anti bullying a lot,

Sly: Mm-Hmm.

Jackal: really impact trans people's lives and every kid's life,

Sly: Mm-Hmm.

Jackal: we stopped focusing on all of the violence that's happened against trans people, there's so many things like the job discrimination, the housing discrimination, the health discrimination, All the discriminations that gender divergent people face at whatever point they are in their transition, whether they are non transitioning medically or fully transitioned medically that people face and suffer.

Jackal: None of that is getting addressed by legislation. And it's all of these pseudo ideology of transphobia. That's what bothers me. Like that bothers me.

Sly: well, and I think we did make some gains. I think that there's a reason we're having a wide [00:57:00] scale political backlash against, like, critical race theory, quote unquote, which is nonsense to, like, you know, equal and equitable rights for all, basically, and acknowledging that racism exists and trans people exist

Sly: so I feel like we made significant gains in terms of understanding systemic racism. Injustice for transness, for race, for disability, for sexual abuse histories, the Me Too movement

Jackal: Feminist values, feminist,

Sly: percent. And I, and we are in a time of backlash. I think that the far right, extremist, fascist, conservative, Folks are, are actually very threatened and scared by those rights.

Sly: So if we focus on anti bullying and validating all the ways in which, let's say, you know, gender based violence happens. Especially through a trans lens, we're, we are moving, we're moving towards rights and we're moving away from patriarchy, we're moving away from conforming and expecting our daughters and sons to be good little [00:58:00] cis boys and girls and straight subjects and fulfill the hetero dream, whatever that may be.

Sly: And, and those folks don't like moving forward. They want to go backwards and they want to create a boogeyman out of us to not deal with their own shit. That's my opinion, and

Kai: go back to traditional values

Jackal: Not even, not even that. I think it's, I think it's a deflection method. I think it's, don't look at the, at the man behind the curtain, , look over there. That's more interesting. That's more threatening. Don't look at this. That's really creating the problems.

Jackal: Right. So

Sly: A hundred percent.

Jackal: 100%. What would you say to the newer trans and non binary? Folk today.

Sly: Oh, gosh. Welcome.

Jackal: Oh,

Sly: Welcome. I'm so glad and grateful that you are here. No one can can violate your essence. You are you no matter what. That is a gift from the universe and you get to decide what to do with yourself and I only wish that others [00:59:00] around you will support you and if they don't, get the fuck away from them and find us.

Sly: We are here.

Jackal: yeah. You're the ones moving us forward. We all appreciate you so much. Thank you. And how do you think we As transmasculine elders in particular can be more supportive of our transmasculine brothers, whether that be Rupert's generation, our own generation or future generations.

Sly: I would just love more spaces to gather and connect. I think that we as a group maybe have more awareness now, like you said earlier around nostalgia and internalized things. And I think that we, we have a liberatory, we have had to think through what liberatory masculinity looks like. And there are so few spaces where we can connect around that.

Sly: And I would like to see more of that connection and be a part of that.

Jackal: Thank you so much. So this is the end of this part of our interview. So we're just going to ask the last question is there anything that you think we should have asked that we [01:00:00] didn't, any final words of wisdom that you would like to impart?

Jackal: To me in particular

Sly: yeah, no, I think that one of the things that I, as an intergenerational activist and human deal with a lot is, is, is the ongoing lack of connection to the folks that came before. So, I know about Rupert, but I would like to connect with folks that maybe I'm not even aware of. And I would like younger generations to recognize that between the early 2000s and now, folks like myself, we're doing a lot of solitary activism at a great cost and just because it wasn't on Instagram doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And so please don't assume that the people that are the latest version of the, this conversation around transness or non binaryness are the only ones that have done anything to create space for us.

Sly: So yeah, let's connect across generations and remember that just because you don't know who the person is maybe doesn't mean they don't exist.

Jackal: Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, it's been [01:01:00] a real pleasure and joy to have you on our show.

Kai: Thank you very much life for being a part of our show Thank you for all of your openness and your relentless work for our communities.

Sly: Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure.

Jackal: So, welcome back to Stealth and our Members Only section. We really want to thank our members for being members. And here we go with Sly. So, Sly, as Kaim mentioned, we don't think you're going to have much to say about this, but what do you think about being asked to identify your pronouns?

Sly: god I think it's a question that cis people love to ask for their own validation. And I think it does matter, actually, in certain spaces, so like, if it matters to trans people and it helps us, It's great but I find that it's often just an exercise for cis people to congratulate themselves to know that pronouns exist, so I don't really care for that, and, they can put their pronouns in their signature, and that makes them look progressive in certain ways, and maybe they are, and maybe it is helpful, but it's more of a [01:02:00] gesture, and it doesn't really create the kind of space that I personally value.

Sly: Yes,

Jackal: I love names and Sly is a very interesting name. My name Jackal is very interesting. So it's like, you

Sly: yeah, yeah,

Jackal: how did you get your name? How did you name yourself?

Sly: It is rooted in, in, in my birth name, which I won't mention, but I was going by Sylvester in my early twenties and Sly became that sort of nickname. And then I was like, Oh geez, I don't want to, again, a hard, hard masculine name. I don't want to be called Jack. I don't want to be called, you know, you know, whatever, like John or something or Mike.

Sly: So I was like, what, what is it like an in between name? And so I was like, well, Could I use Sly? Like, would people take me seriously? I was like, oh no, like, the only person named Sly is Sylvester Stallone, and I'm gonna be like in mental health work. Are people gonna think I'm some yahoo? But I was like, ah, screw it.

Sly: I'm just gonna do it. And yeah. And then, like, the last name is I adopted my mother's last name Armenian Bulgarian last [01:03:00] name because My father is German and, and I wanted to sort of get rid of the German side of my lineage and and I kept the feminized spelling of her last name as well on purpose.

Sly: Yeah.

Jackal: Hey, I forgot if you wanted to promote yourself on Instagram, would you like to do that and tell us what your handle

Sly: sure. My name is Sly Sarkezeva and I'm on Instagram. You can find me S A R K I S O V A.

Jackal: Cool. Thank you. That's at S L Y S A R K I S O V A. I did it.

Sly: Yeah, that's right. Yes.

Jackal: Okay.

Kai: I'm glad you don't have the name Sylvester because I have a lisp and that's a lot of S's.

Sly: Nice.

Jackal: Yeah. Well, Sylvester has a lisp too. So imagine he

Sly: Oh, yes.

Jackal: Anyways.

Sly: about the cat. Yeah, of

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah. Anyways. So tell us about a time that you didn't [01:04:00] expect to disclose your trans status. But you did, or you didn't like, what did you do in the situation? Oh

Sly: I don't, I was on a road trip in 2018 with with a straight guy friend of mine and we were having a blast and we were in Flagstaff, Arizona on a Tuesday night in this like, you know, the one sort of, you know, karaoke bar hotel situation in town that the entire, like, the entire youth of the town were, were at this bar and it was, like, very mixed, there were straight people, there was queer folks, and we were chatting with these straight girls, and I didn't know what people knew about transness or what their politics were, but they seemed pretty progressive, and, and so finally, halfway through the conversation, I said, well, I'm Because they were making like jokes about men and me and my, my friend were trying to debunk them a little bit and say not all men are this way essentially.

Sly: And I said, well, you know, I, I am trans. And it was just , like, I didn't expect to volunteer that because again, I [01:05:00] was outnumbered. I didn't know the politics. It was the states. I was like, Oh God, what's going to happen. It was awkward. , it was like, the conversation took a turn. I thought they were progressive enough to, to not sort of say certain things, but they, they they tried, but they failed.

Sly: And then I was like, okay, I'm going up to my room. I'm out of here.

Kai: It's a college town.

Sly: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's, the college was in the bar.

Kai: yeah.

Sly: find intimidating because I don't like to be around groups of young, straight people mostly. So,

Kai: Drinking.

Sly: yeah.

Jackal: Especially

Sly: But, but my friend and I went and sang Thunderstruck and we were a crowd favorite and that was the last thing I did and then I went upstairs and clocked out.

Kai: well, well, Jackal is a big fan of karaoke and I'm a big fan of the mountains and

Sly: Yes,

Kai: Flagstaff, except for the politics. But

Sly: it was beautiful, that's for sure. Yeah,

Kai: So many of us have joked, Sly, about wanting to have some sort of code so we can communicate with each [01:06:00] other. When you don't personally know someone, but you know or suspect that they're transmasc, when you see or meet them, how do you typically respond?

Sly: I find that I often can tell but I'm not sure if others can tell me if I'm trans. And so I don't know that I've had that many opportunities, but I would just probably insert pronouns into the conversation. Yeah, I just I don't know. That's a tricky one. Yeah, I would probably just use words queer and trans to, to signify like, I'm not sure like, you know, do we carry like a little beeping device and like we, a bell and we ring it this way and hey, just so you know, wink wink.

Jackal: Yeah, right.

Sly: I don't know. I'm not sure about that one. But,

Jackal: a tough question.

Sly: yeah, yeah,

Kai: I think it's awkward. You know, like I live in, I don't know what Toronto is like, but I suspect there are other trans folks there

Sly: yeah, yeah. And,

Sly: I think my fear is [01:07:00] that they just don't see me at all, right? And so I just want to, I just want to, say yes. Like at some point if we're familiar enough, yes, like I am one of you.

Jackal: mm,

Kai: hmm. Mm

Sly: offer that to others as well. I

Kai: Thank you. How do you, how do you feel when you get clocked by other transmasc folks?

Sly: know. It's always sometimes a little bit vulnerable. I don't know why.

Jackal: No, of course. That safety thing that you talked about earlier, that might be why.

Sly: Yeah. I'm not sure. Also because, like, being a mental health professional and a psychotherapist, like, you know, there's a certain degree of privacy, so if I'm in certain spaces out in community and I am seen there and known there, it feels a bit revealing, right?

Sly: So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kai: I really get that. It's kind of like somebody's, not a gotcha moment, but it's like,

Sly: Kind of.

Kai: I, on the one hand, I want to connect with others, particularly if they seem newer, or like, I just am itching to talk to somebody [01:08:00] or wink wink, but on the other hand, if somebody recognizes me, or it's in a work context or something.

Kai: I feel like, oh, I'm searing

Sly: Just a little inner cringe. I don't know

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. All right. So how would you suggest another person who knows you or knows of you approach you if they want to connect because they're trans?

Sly: Oh man, I'm a friendly person. I don't bite. I, I, I would love a, just a friendly hello and introduction for sure. Yeah. I like to connect with people. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Kai: I'm going to just add as long as it's safe,

Sly: I think

Jackal: I didn't know that about you.[01:09:00]

Kai: I, I, early in my transition, our mutual friend, who happens to be my neighbor, Jackal, and I are both like brothers with this guy. He was like, Hey Kai, you big gold screaming tranny fag, come here and give me a hug. I love Seattle. Okay, we're on Capitol Hill, but I'm, I'm blushing now just saying it, but it was hilarious cause he just didn't give a shit, you know?

Kai: And it was so funny. It

Jackal: He loves to make people uncomfortable. So girlfriend and girl and using your, your previous birthday. Yeah.

Kai: good for me. But I think, you know, like that playfulness that you described, Sly, I really like hearing that you're like an ice skater, which I can't do, but , just having fun and expressing yourself and just figuring out what else you like to do outside of a rigorous academic program, outside of the fight, , and advocacy and just being who you are and figuring that that's great.

Kai: Well,

Sly: outside of all the things we talked about is age. Like, as a [01:10:00] maturing adult, , I, I'm often viewed by the world as like a a, a, a a man and I'm supposed to look like a middle aged man and do middle aged man things. So when I go to a play space that is literally for like teens or like young adults like we have this gaming space that's very interactive and you go there and you like do all sorts of body based you know playful things and I go there and I wear like a fluorescent outfit from head to toe and everyone else is wearing black and in their 20s they're staring at me like who the fuck is this guy he like looks like a screaming fag or whatever and I'm like well yeah.

Sly: So I, that's part of me too. And also I love color. So here I am.

Jackal: You're the Ken doll from the Barbie movie. Yeah.

Kai: he's awfully hunky, Ken, of colors, very much. So, all right. Well, well, go ahead. Go ahead.

Jackal: I said, so slice, slice hunky.

Kai: Yesterday I was at the dog park and I met this really nice couple with a dog whose recall whistle was Rocky theme. Speaking of Sly, at

Sly: [01:11:00] Wow.

Kai: that's what they told me. That was the story they told, but we want to thank you, Sly, for being on our show.

Jackal: It has been a real pleasure. I love your energy. I love everything that you have offered in, in this podcast. Just have a really great day and thank you

Sly: sure. Thank you both.

Jackal: So that was a nice interview. I personally really liked it. What did you think?

Kai: Yeah, Sly has really blown me away with all of the different things that he's talking about. One, I really felt the challenges that he has had over his life with managing the intolerance around him as he's forged his way. And really the fight that, that sense of purpose and, fighting for acknowledgement and recognition of his gender identity and shifting in language and just all the work that he's been doing around that in climates where they weren't accepting and welcoming, that just sounds really tough trailblazer.

Jackal: Yeah, it's interesting. I, I really appreciated his like [01:12:00] he's not willing to compromise anymore and like suffer through, you know, whether it be verbal violence or some sort, you know, like just that toxicity and the abuse, even if it's like the little things, like, it doesn't matter what kind of Harassment or attack that sly has suffered that we can validate or invalidate, but the fact that he's not willing to compromise himself for that anymore is profound.

Jackal: Like, I really, really appreciate that because I don't I think that we Deserve a space for us, a safe space for ourselves. And that's one of the things that I think he's really brought to today was this idea of, you know, he deserves a safe space within our community. And he's not going to tolerate not having.

Kai: Yeah. And I think he's cast something away too, and saying that he's no longer [01:13:00] fighting, that was the thing that I thought was really profound because Just felt like he can breathe now, wow, that's pretty great place to be. And he's, it sounds like he's in a transitional point in his life where he's, Pursuing this degree that someone really encouraged him to do that.

Kai: He was reluctant to do because the environment wasn't welcoming in academia and how he's now treading along and figuring things out, I think there's a whole life of discovery out there for him as he continues. I liked hearing about him having fun and being a tomboy growing up.

Kai: I think we would have been buddies as kids, so maybe, maybe we would have fought. I don't know, I really like his emphasis on embracing the softness of who he is and not trying to fit into boxes where he was repeatedly told that he needed to.

Kai: That was great.

Jackal: You know, it makes this whole conversation made me think about the way we use language and the [01:14:00] problem that we have with language being gendered. Like supposedly English is not a gendered language, right? But if you say things like soft, emotional. Delicate, fragile. You're associating that with a feminine attitude, caretaking, whatever the things are, those are feminine and not masculine.

Jackal: Why do I have to be a soft man and have that be less masculine than any other type of masculinity? That language piece for me really is so powerful and so problematic that it's, if I had a wish, a genie in a lamp kind of thing, and I could snap my fingers and like something would change, that would change.

Jackal: Like that. The emotions that run the gamut. Like, women aren't aggressive, they're just as assertive as a man. You know what I mean? All these different things that get attached to gendered [01:15:00] bodies. It's incredible. And I just think it's incredibly problematic as well.

Kai: I agree with you and I think overall I came away with this sense of positivity and optimism. He's blazing ahead and he is talking about changing the community from within itself. So instead of having CISHET or other folks in academics write policy about how to treat us in the political and mental health field

Kai: we're making decisions about ourselves. We know ourselves better than others. And we're working together, in collaboration with other providers, but I thought that was really powerful and that backlash that he described as we continue to evolve and have more presence,

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Kai: that is again, reminiscent of Tristan and the political movements, the way political movements work and historically how things go.

Kai: There's progress and we hit a wall and there's progress and we hit a wall, we are chipping away. So I just wanted to promote that positivity and carry [01:16:00] that because he emulates that. I thought that was really great. I really enjoyed talking with him.

Kai: I could have talked to him a long time.

Jackal: I know, me too. I want to talk about that positivity because we have a new volunteer who is inspiring to me and so positive. It reminds me of when you were doing your interviews with Cal Dobbs and his, the trans athlete that ran across the U. S. We have a new volunteer.

Jackal: I don't know if I can say his name, so I'm not going to, but he's doing our social media and he's especially doing our Instagram and his take on it is that our Instagram is going to promote positivity in the trans world. Okay. So you're going to see more feeds on positive legislation that has passed in the United States or elsewhere.

Jackal: You're going to see the happy birthday messages, you're going to see different things now on our Instagram page, that's promoting positivity and trans joy in our community, because [01:17:00] we know that there's so much negativity out there. You get tons of it on your feeds, but we want to make sure that you get at least one feed that is constant positivity.

Jackal: So that's great.

Kai: He was on there yesterday. He posted a couple reels that were really great.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: They're already out there spreading it, spreading the joy.

Jackal: yeah, by the time you hear this, it's going to be a couple of months, but if you haven't seen our Instagram and in a while, go check it out. It's definitely a boost of positivity if you need that today.

Jackal: And now it's time for Transponder. In today's Transponder segment, Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers vetoed Assembly Bill 377 aimed at banning transgender and gender non conforming children from participating in athletic teams at schools. The bill would have barred children from participating in teams that align with their gender identity.

Jackal: As Evers wrote, not approved to officially veto the bill. He stated, we have now [01:18:00] helped our kids, our trans kids. Thanks everybody. Thank you, Tony. We think you're great. Last week at the 2024 Juno awards, Elliot Page presented the humanitarian awards to Teagan and Sarah, Canadian musicians who have uplifted the 2SLGBTQ plus community over their decades long career.

Jackal: Through the Teagan and Sarah Foundation, they have reached tens of thousands of LGBT plus community members through grants for 100 different organizations that have often been overlooked by major funders. Their foundation has reached over 50 states and provinces in North America. Congratulations, Teagan and Sarah.

Jackal: We want to thank Kira, our volunteer, for rounding up these trans joy moments. We hope you have enjoyed it. Stay positive out there. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact Kira at our Instagram page at transmasculine [01:19:00] podcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you.

Jackal: Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight, their Expertise and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today, Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before.

Jackal: the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority. In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids.

Jackal: Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We fully anticipate that people in groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our [01:20:00] stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community.

Jackal: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. As we enter Season 4, we are getting better, but we are still rookies, and still two old farts to boot.

Jackal: So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside entity. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know your feedback and support are essential to our show success.

Jackal: podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. You can find us on [01:21:00] Instagram, Transmaskingpodcast, on X, formerly Twitter. At podcast Stealth on YouTube stealth, the Trans Masculine Podcast. And be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast.com.

Jackal: Thank you for joining us. Until next time.

Christian Gilbert is a 40 year old trans man who socially transitioned in the late '90s and medically transitioned in 2007. Post transition, Christian graduated college and entered the healthcare administration workforce where he dedicated his career to serving vulnerable populations by focusing on access to healthcare, quality improvement, business development, and health outcomes. 

Aster is a 43 year old white queer transman. He lives on traditional Clackamas territories, Portland, OR, with his partner and 3 year old kiddo. Aster has been in queer and trans communities since his teens and has always worked toward improving access and visibility for LGBTQ+ and other marginalized people. This has included political direct action, drag, cabaret and spoken word performance, and educating healthcare providers in providing trauma-informed care for trans and gender diverse people. He currently works as a critical care registered nurse at a community hospital where he and his fellow nurses recently organized a union to better advocate for patient safety and healthcare worker protections. 

Thomas is a 61 year old trans man who lives in the Washington DC area with his partner and their two dogs. He began his gender transition in early 2000. While he has held many professional roles, he has been in the healthcare field for the last 15 years and has been an educator and an advocate for the trans and non-binary communities. He, like many previous STP interviewees, is happy to have found this podcast and is grateful for the opportunity to talk to Kai and Jackal about his experience.

Rupert is a Canadian trans man and activist of East Indian and Polish descent. In 1978, Raj started an organization for all gender divergent peoples called The Foundation for the Advancement of Canadian Transsexuals. Fact. Along with its accompanying newsletter, The Gender Review, a factual journal.

His work has been recognized by several awards, as well as his inclusion in the National Portrait Collection of the Archives, Canada's LGBTQ2 plus archives.

Adrian is a trans man/ftm who transitioned on the East coast in the late 90s at 26 years of age. He moved to the pacific North West in the early 2000s and eventually settled back in his home State of California where he lives today. At the turn of the millennium, Adrian participated in a number of conferences, panels, focus groups and educational Q and A sessions relating to trans experience, health care, and trans rights primarily by happenstance.

Trystan Reese is a queer transgender man living in Portland, Oregon with his partner and their three kids. Two of his children are adopted; he gave birth to his youngest child in 2017. He wrote a book about his experience; it’s called How We Do Family.

Gaines Blasdel is a transgender man and a clinical medical student at the University of Michigan. His previous work experience was in LGBT community health, and he has held peer-leadership roles in gender affirming surgery patient community. Gaines centers this lived experience and work history in academic inquiry, and has published in surgical outcomes, ethics, medical education, and community-based participatory research practices.

Jackal, Kai and Adam (our fabulous volunteer!) are beyond thrilled to release our 50th episode of the STP. Jackal patched together highlights from previous seasons and honestly, our guests are amazing! Thank you for your support as we approach another new year.

Evan is a 35 year old gay trans guy who started his medical transition as a minor at the age of 17. He is a veterinarian and is currently working for the government. He previously worked in small animal general practice while also performing in home euthanasia for pets. In addition to his veterinary degree, he also has a master's degree in public health.

Evan likes to spend time outdoors whenever he can and is an avid mountain biker, hiker, snowboarder, and cross country skier. He recently picked his oboe back up and has joined a queer community orchestra. Evan and his husband have lived all over the U. S. and Canada, but have settled in Seattle with their tuxedo cat named Thomas.