Shawn

Shawn is a queer African American trans man committed to social and racial justice. Shawn has 10+ years of experience providing community health education training, capacity building, and technical assistance to increase provider knowledge and awareness about trans people and the best practices to engage transgender communities in health care. Shawn has developed training curricula, webinars, and interactive presentations for the staff and leadership of numerous health care organizations across the U.S. In addition, he coordinated the past three convenings of the National Transgender Health Summit and led the development of a Trans 101 eLearning course for the UCSF Center of Excellence for Transgender Health website. Currently, Shawn directs an HIV capacity-building program where he works to expand the number and ability of health care professionals to provide high quality HIV care and decrease inequities that includes programming on gender-affirming care. Shawn has an undergraduate degree in Black Studies and Masters in Public Health from San Francisco State University, and is the proud papa of a 10-year old chihuahua named Cooper.

S5E9 Shawn

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back to Stealth A Trans Masculine Podcast. I'm Jackal. 

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000.

We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices. 

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one, for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence. And that due to that, Our stories are very often overlooked.

Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community. We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us [00:01:00] has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways.

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers, we are parents, we are professionals, academics, and advocates. We push for human rights and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition.

Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube. These are trying times and we want to acknowledge that here in the States and throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities.

Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast. com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us. 

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living [00:02:00] community. We are healthy.

We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved and we welcome you to our stories. We want to give a content warning for this episode. There is talk about mental health issues. 

Kai: Remember, you can go to our website, transmasculinepodcast. com for resources for crisis lines, including the Trevor Project, Trans Lifeline, and Suicide Prevention Lifeline.

Transmasculinepodcast. com.

Meik: Hi there, I'm Mike, and I'm the creator of Trans Mass Stories. When I was at the start of my transition, I searched for uplifting stories of people who had questioned their gender identity, gone through their transition, and come out stronger. I needed direction, and a light at the end of the tunnel.

Transmask Stories is my way of paying it forward. It's the resource I wish I'd had, a space full of real, positive, and [00:03:00] anonymous transition stories from transmasculine individuals, offering clarity and hope for anyone navigating their journey. If you're on the transmasculine spectrum, I'd love for you to share your story.

And if you know someone who could use some direction, send them over to transmaskstories. com to explore. Dozens of transition stories. All right, that's all. Enjoy the show now. Cheers.

Kai: So Jackal, it's now 2025, what's new with you? How you been doing?

Jackal: I've been doing good. I took a really nice vacation before coming back to work went to Mexico for a couple weeks, saw some friends, it was really fun went to Texas, saw my brother, had a great time, and came back. How you are and how your Holiday?

Kai: I am curious about the train set. Did you and your brother add to the train [00:04:00] set?

Jackal: Yeah, so he had the idea from the beginning cause he has tunnels to have like a liftoff mountain so that he could access, the tunnel area if the train derailed or whatever, right? So we were working on that and it's a slow process. We use styrofoam insulation and then carve it and, paint it .

So it's, it's in the beginning stages of it. But then he watches a lot of videos about it. So he saw that on the border around, on the table people put plywood it's called Masonite. It's really thin and you carve it to be whatever the mountain range is, and then you put it on all the sides so that it isn't like, just like, here's your model, and it just falls off the board, right?

So it looks like, you know, it's surrounded by kind of a silhouette of a mountain range. So we did that as well. It was a lot harder than he anticipated, because he [00:05:00] thought he was just going to be able to do it. You know, like a, a skill saw and be like, gee, there's my mountain range, but it was not as simple as that.

And so he had to do a lot of cutting and filing and stuff like that, but he's got it all up now and he painted it black and it looks really super. 

Kai: Yeah, you two do not mess around. You're very serious about this model.

Jackal: It's super fun. It's not something I would have ever taken on by myself. It's not my interest. But as soon as our dad passed he was like, I have this free room. I want to do this train model. I mean, it was literally I think November 11th and our dad passed on October 2nd.

So it was like a month and a half and we were like building the table, you know, doing all this stuff. And it's been two years now. And it's an ongoing process, but, we joke about that could have been so much better.

We need to start over. Right. That's our first joke. Our joke is start over. And our second joke is basically [00:06:00] like, how are his girls going to get it out of the house? You know, when he passes, and they're like well here is the house we're going to sell the house and it comes with a model.

Kai: Wow. Hopefully that won't happen anytime soon. It's a

Jackal: no, no, no. 

Kai: the whole process, you know I don't know if it feels connected to loss, like the grief But it's like this rebirth of something you're creating 

Jackal: I think for my brother, it was a number of things. I think that he, he had one as an adult, but I think it's nostalgic for him because, you know, our dad is the one who first introduced him to the model train thing. He had a small room when we were growing up, but the way my dad is so creative.

He had built it. Like if you imagine one of those, like fold up. Tables that like fold up into your wall. So it's out of the way he built the train set onto this table that it could fold up and then when you brought it down, the train set [00:07:00] was there. 

Kai: That's cool 

Jackal: yeah. And so my brother was just, I mean, it was something simple when he was a kid, but yeah, he has this nostalgia of train associated with our dad

yeah, I think it's all of that combined 

Kai: Yeah, 

Jackal: but it's really fun and he always jokes with me that I need to go buy some styrofoam and just do models of landscape at my house, but I have a pretty small apartment now and I'm like no, Dan, I'm not doing that, but thank you for the idea.

Kai: great story. I'm glad you had a break and you were in warmer climate and got to connect with old friends and family. Things here are good. I happen to have been laid off in the end of December, which is not a great time. So I jumped on the looking for work wagon and I got a job.

Jackal: Oh, you did good. I was wanting to ask you about this because at our age, it's really nerve wracking. And I know you've talked about it before, just being trans in general, we feel like we've gotten stunted [00:08:00] a little bit work wise. So tell me more about 

Kai: Yeah. So I was really contemplating what I wanted to do and which jobs I wanted to apply for and I ended up getting a job at a school.

So I'm working with middle schoolers, which is hilarious. And I'm going to do some other things, but I'm really relieved I just started. So I had about What? Month of no work and that was weird because I had a lot of time to reflect right during the holidays near we both had a birthday, and so it wasn't exactly relaxing because it was uncertain about my employment status and all that but I really benefited from some rest. 

Jackal: Before you move on, I want to ask a couple of things. You're working with middle schoolers now. Are you stealth at work then again?

Kai: such a good question, because I just am going to gay my office up. I just got the trans flag and the white flag and I have a bunch of different posters and I have [00:09:00] pink and rainbow lights I'm going to put up and unicorn lights.

Jackal: You are so funny.

Kai: I am going to be out as anything.

It is so sweet.

Jackal: I would never be for me personally. Like, even if I gave my offices, I would not have unicorn lights. I just wouldn't. 

Kai: I couldn't resist. 

I got two strands of them. They're super cute. I'm gonna be the gay. And I'm stoked about it. This week they're just sizing me up. The kids are popping in and popping out. And the school district itself is very affirming. And it's very much in favor of DEI and they highlight trans and LGBT and non binary students, they're standing by it, that there's no discrimination, and they can play sports and use the restroom, so I'm all in, I'm totally in, and I disclosed during my interview that I was trans and queer, and that was an asset. I'm feeling really good there. I'm not gay for pay anymore in the way that I was, but I'm really excited. Thank you for asking. That's a really big shift. I have some sad news is the Sunday before I started, my 14 year old dog, we had [00:10:00] to put her down.

Jackal: Oh no, 

Kai: little Honey bucket, yeah. Yeah, really heartbroken, and she had such a good life. I ended up driving to California to visit family. I drove back with some furniture from my parents that I was bringing and that week, she had a really rough week.

So I came home Saturday night and then that night she was just having a really hard time and I'd always promised her I would never prolong anything, and the next morning I called the vet, and they were fantastic, and she took up so much room in our hearts in our house. She was a domineering little Frenchie who I absolutely loved, but boy, I gotta tell you, the house is so quiet right now.

It is so quiet, and it was the sweetest thing but it's so painful, it's 14 years with little

Jackal: Yeah. 

Kai: Stinker, 

Jackal: that's how much I had was Sirius. And it's like, I sometimes, I don't know, you know, it's new for you. So I'm sure it's just really fresh. But you know, I would [00:11:00] go out and walk and watch. Other people with like, really old dogs, and they would be like, you know, 16, 17, and, you know, 20 years old.

And I'm like, why couldn't I have had, you know, like it was just really, it's just, it's hard. How's Lucky handling it?

Kai: oh, she's fine, she's the queen, she's like totally stoked, and yeah, do you know what, last night I had a dream, and I woke up, and I saw honey on the bed, young in perky, and looking at me, probably hallucinating, just dreaming it, but it was like, she visited, it was so sweet, 

Jackal: I believe in the spirit after life, you 

know, and the, you know, and, and that kind of visitation. So don't, you know, don't 

Kai: I know. It was really special. I mean I had, the one good thing is that I had zero doubt about it was time.

Like I promised that dog a year ago that I would not keep her a day beyond, and it was so clear that it was time, and she was miserable, and so it, that part wasn't hard, and the [00:12:00] vet was amazing, it was a new vet to us, and but we were there, and it's definitely heart, heartache, yeah, oh yeah, sob,

Yeah.

but Go ahead. Aww.

Jackal: passed, it was because, I think I've mentioned this, I came home and she was paralyzed, right, and yeah, and totally healthy, but she was paralyzed, right, so I couldn't take care of her, and I was You know, heartbroken and I had to put her down and and yeah, just the, just I know how I was blubbering and bawling when it happened, you know, I can just imagine my unicorn light hanging friend be just heartbroken and bawling his eyes out.

Kai: Yeah, for sure. And, she was co parented by several folks, so anybody who knew what a force she was is, we're all having a little bit of a sad here, but it's going good. And looking forward to longer days now, like my mood improves when the days extend the amount of daylight, [00:13:00] and that is happening right now by. Several minutes a day. I don't know if that's happening where you are, but it makes me feel so much better and I can see some of the crocus coming already. So that's really nice.

Jackal: Nice, nice. I, you know, my birthday is right on winter solstice so I'm super happy in this time of year, like I don't, I don't get seasonal depression actually. So yeah, it is what it is.

The days, short days, long days, I'm fine.

Kai: This is a great segue. Let's talk about self care. One last shout out to Camp Lost Boys. We were in talk with some folks in Vancouver, BC, and they're considering coming down for Camp Last Boys in the fall. They have different resources and they had the event on the intentionalmanproject. org was the Power of Presence conversation on Black trans masculine historical figures and perspectives and thanks to the Intentional Man Project [00:14:00] and the hosts for helping us keep informed and talking to us about our trans siblings of color.

Jackal: Yeah, totally. And also, if you don't know Camp Lost Boys is based in LA. So another shout out to them to take care. We're thinking about you. We're excited to go to Camp Lost Boys and just take your time. I know that there's a lot of devastation in that area with the fires and we just love you so much.

Kai: Keep in contact with us, y'all. Just keep in contact. Let us know how you're doing. And we will keep showing up and we're happy to be here. Thanks Jackal.

Jackal: Thanks, Kai.

Adam: Sean Demmons is a queer African American trans man committed to social and racial justice. Sean has over 10 years of experience providing community health education training, capacity building, and technical assistance to increase provider knowledge and awareness [00:15:00] about trans people and the best practices to engage transgender communities in healthcare.

Sean has developed training curricula, webinars, and interactive presentations for the staff and leadership of numerous healthcare organizations across the U. S. In addition, he coordinated the past three convenings of the National Transgender Health Summit and led the development of a Trans 101 e learning course for the UCSF Center of Excellence for Transgender Health website.

Currently, Sean directs an HIV capacity building program where he works to expand the number and ability of healthcare professionals to provide high quality HIV care and decrease inequities that includes programming on gender affirming care. Sean has an undergraduate degree in black studies and a master's in public health from San Francisco State University and is the proud papa of a 10 year old chihuahua named Cooper.

Sean's tranniversary is 2008, the same as Bryce, so go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that [00:16:00] year.

Jackal: Welcome to Stealth, a transmasculine podcast. We are here with Shawn. Good morning, Shawn. How are you doing today?

ShawnD: I'm doing pretty good, yeah.

Jackal: Awesome. So I don't know you personally, but Kai met you.

And so we usually start off with how did we meet? So how did you and Kai meet? How did you become a guest on our show?

ShawnD: How Kai and I met, I know Kai's sister, and I didn't know that, and I was coming up to Portland to present at a conference a topic related to trans healthcare, and he reached out to me and was like, Hey! I'm up here, it'd be nice to meet y'all at the conference. I was like, cool, I'm always up to meet.

 So that's how we met and then we went to dinner and We just started talking and connecting, and it was just a really great conversation, and I appreciate it.

I was only there two days, to present and come back. And that's pretty much how I met Kai, and then we know people, because I think Kai, you might, I think you lived down here in the Bay before,[00:17:00] 

Kai: Yeah.

ShawnD: Some of the same people, and definitely his sister who I have great affinity for, love very much very respected here.

Kai: Thanks Shawn. It's nice to see you again. So, Shawn, tell us, how did you learn about trans masculine identities?

ShawnD: That's a great question. I remember when I finished my undergrad degree, I had seen a flyer. In school. I went to San Francisco State asking for folks that wanted to volunteer to address issues going on inside California's prisons for women. And I was like, yeah, I want to do that. I'm going to do that as soon as I get done here. And when I went, there was a lot of queer people, and that was the first place I was in a room where people were like, what is your name and pronoun?

I was like, what are you talking about? And so I really still didn't get it. I was like, oh, okay. And so then I. The next time I came into contact with somebody who was trans, I was on a panel. And I was on a panel, a sexual diversity panel, and I was the lesbian.[00:18:00] 

So there were these other people there I remember I came up the elevator with this woman who I found attractive.

I was like, ooh, right? And I was like, I wonder, she must be the bisexual. No, I had met one trans woman before I worked with. I really didn't get her because then she started dating a woman and because I had this very binary way of thinking about things sexual and all this, I was like, I don't know what's going on there.

And I really didn't pay attention to that either. But anyway, on this panel, there was a guy, who I know now is my brother in community. He was on the panel.

He started sharing his, he was fully transitioned. So I had no idea, right?

He doesn't live stealth, but, guys blend better,

Kai: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm

ShawnD: And I was fascinated. I was like, how in the heck, what is going on here? That was one. Still, I just didn't know, but I was fascinated. And I was like, wow, I don't know how they get to get, a beard and, get the look that in my brain I want for myself, right? I'm starting to play with my gender. [00:19:00] And then I remember Having a friend here who was taking care of a friend and he was getting top surgery. I didn't understand what that was. What is that? And so I had all these experiences, but it wasn't until I was watching this documentary on HBO and it was these young white kids. And the term genderqueer came up. So genderqueer clicked for me. I was like, ah, that's what it is because I always knew I wasn't really a lesbian. I actually prefer to use the term dyke for myself because I like to take back those disparaging terms. 

And for me, dyke was powerful and it was who I was. I was like, okay, I like this term or a butch because more like our studs in black community, we weren't like that or things like that. But I was like, okay, genderqueers, and then I started to explore my gender, and then I started to get in community, then I started to meet these guys, and but when it really, I started, looking for information, but all the [00:20:00] information I would find would mostly reflect white guys, and so that didn't really resonate for me.

I was like, what is this? I don't know what's going on, but I knew that I wasn't a girl or a woman or that. I just didn't get it. I was like, okay. It was when I saw Courtney's film, still black. And when I saw still black, I saw myself. And so I was

like, whoa. Okay. And so then I started to, come out, meet more guys, meet more trans guys mostly trans men. And I remember I went to a brunch once and I just started to. To go through that because I socially transitioned Well before because I was ambivalent about hormones I needed more information about that.

And I also had a therapist at the time that, when I was coming out, and I was telling her I was considering hormones, and she was like, No, you can't do hormones. They're doing this. She was like one of these real

Kai: Mm.

ShawnD: super lesbians, just You can't do that. But I had enough [00:21:00] sense, and I really appreciate all the other ways she was helping me to heal on other issues, and so I had to let her go because it wasn't her decision to make. It was really mine. And I also wanted to have top surgery first before I made that decision. I was very sure I wanted top surgery. And so I did that and I had to fight the insurance company because the insurance company wanted me You have to get on hormones

and do all this. I was like, no, I don't. Because I was also, I think at that time I was already on the board for Transgender Law Center. And so I was getting, consult there and like how to deal with the insurance company. And so I was able, I was successful in that advocating for myself. I got my top surgery. And then I was I probably started hormones. I got top surgery in October of 2000 something.

Kai: Mm hmm.

ShawnD: I can't remember. 

Kai: Mm hmm. Thank you. I, I have a couple of follow ups based on what you were talking about. You, you said something earlier about [00:22:00] getting information that was mostly geared towards white trans guys. And how it wasn't applying to you, wasn't like something that resonated with you. Can you talk to us a little bit about what was out there?

What was it that you stumbled upon?

Jackal: what was missing, please?

ShawnD: What was missing was black people,

black men, a black experience. A black experience. I remember, Going home to LA and I was going to Outfest and I was going with my friend Crystal, because I mean, I have most of my friends, being that I transitioned later in life, are lesbians.

They're all lesbians. Everybody in LA is a lesbian. My trans community is here, even though I know trans people in LA. And so we went over to Outfest and she said which session do you want to go see? And I was like, I want to go pick this. I haven't come out to anybody yet. I'm just exploring. And when we talked some years later, She was like, I was wondering what was going on.

Like, why did you pick that? And and, whatever, it's been fine. But when I went, it was like all these films. About white trans guys and [00:23:00] white trans people and no trans people of color. And so I was like I don't know. It didn't resonate for me. it was not anything reflecting my experience as being a black person who is also trans, because it's a difference. Very different,

Kai: Yeah, we've had a few guests on that shared that experience too, just how, and then also how important representation is, you know? And so now I think, you know, I'm hoping that it's more, it's getting better, I hope.

ShawnD: Well I made my own film.

Kai: Tell us about that, Shawn

ShawnD: yeah, when I first moved here. I was really impressed by the Queer Women of Color Film Festival. It's a free community event. There will be all these beautiful lesbians. Of course, I was going there. I was, looking for women, too. But, you got great film and met people. And it was a cool program. It was free. And they would teach you how to [00:24:00] make a film. And I was like, what's that on a bucket list? I would love to make a short film. I don't know how to do that. And so I signed up for the course. For six weeks, it was grueling after work and they teach you all this stuff and support you and all of these things. And I really tried to quit because filmmaking is not for the weak. Like it costs you money. And time and it was a lot, for that little, six minutes . So anyway, it was right after I had transition physically. So I'm on hormones. I've had top surgery and I'm out there and I'm trying to figure out, my man, what is this?

How am I going to be moving the world? And I didn't realize before transitioning, I hadn't considered because it was more about, wow, this is one of these things that Once I deal with this, it was a big healing when I transitioned for me that I didn't know was missing until I transitioned. A lot of things were [00:25:00] better. But I didn't realize the dating pool and like, where was I gonna fit? And if I didn't know people were that trans, it was like it was this big issue, because for me, I don't know, just in general, it was like, it was my own thing, it was like, I came to this for myself, and I'm very happy that I figured this out, and I don't have this angst in this area, I can focus on the other crazies that I have, and not have this. And so, dating was a trip, and where's my dating pool? Lesbians don't see me, and lesbians don't necessarily want to date trans guys. And so, I was, I like, I also like to ride my bike, so I ride by, I've ridden the AIDS life cycle and I like to ride whenever I have time on weekends. I ride to work, I do, I use my bike quite a bit.

And so there was this group in Oakland called RBG Red, Black, and Green, and it was a group of Black people riding bikes encouraging Black people to ride, and it's like, It's a powerful thing to see if you're in Oakland, see this mob of black [00:26:00] critical mass, but it's like critical mass in black. Oakland. So it was really cool. And it was a woman that rode there and, we were just talking and stuff and I didn't, I hadn't figured out how to navigate my identity yet. Like, how do I do this? And so I could tell she liked me and she was cool and we would hang out, but I never came out to her. And so that was the premise of the movie. The movie was about This guy, right? It was me. It was me. And Courtney starred in my movie, Courtney Ryan Ziegler, who I saw his movie, Courtney stars in mine. And so, it was about him meeting the girl on the bike ride, and they were, it was the whole story, and how he needed to come out to her, and so. I got, I get a lot of questions about the ending of the movie, because at the ending of the movie, he just says I'm trans, after, trying to come on to him, trying to kiss him, and all this stuff, and then the movie ends, and everybody's mad.

Jackal: Wow.

ShawnD: [00:27:00] Why did you end it there?

I said, because this is the discussion.

Here we can talk about that now, because it really doesn't matter. exactly what happened, but it's more to talk about, what he was going through and why that was challenging to come out that way.

Jackal: That's really powerful. I think that's a perfect way to end it. But can you tell us what is the name of your short? 

ShawnD: Oh yeah. it's called The Ride.

Jackal: The Ride.

ShawnD: But yeah, so I made,

I did a bucket list. I don't have a desire to make another film 

Kai: so you mentioned this thing called disclosure, which is, you know, the whole premise of our show and your film centers around that. What were some of the things that you were told about how to do that back then? Like, if you remember, this whole thing about dating, you didn't know where you fit in or which pool you should search in and, and how to do that.

ShawnD: about my trans identity? I never talked about that with [00:28:00] anybody. Disclosure for me doesn't come in the context of dating necessarily because I'm pretty out there if I'm on dating apps, even in my profile, it says I'm a trans man. Even though people don't read that, sometimes they just look at your picture but as soon as I talk to you, I say, do you read my profile? Generally in dating, folks know, where they don't know, usually it's just in my life. Like I have relationships with people I've never come out with, like my dog sitter. Maybe she'll listen to this, I don't know. But part of me thinks they know. I really think they know because I talk about my work. But I've never said, yeah, I'm a trans guy.

I've never said that. 

Jackal: It's funny that you say that because I have that same experience where I'm just living my life here, right? So I am not hiding anything. So you must have access to knowing. I'm just assuming that, and if you don't know, and I totally relate to that.

ShawnD: I do capacity building, I do some trans programming, but I might be doing something on social [00:29:00] determinants or cultural humility and I come out. Oh, I can tell you a story where I didn't come out, but it came out. I got a job at the San Francisco AIDS Foundation. I was a program manager for Black Brothers Esteem, which is a community engagement program to support black same gender loving men and, the people who love them and that are living with HIV. So it's a big community program. It's mostly for older guys, because people living with HIV are older and they've been doing this for a while. But anyway, I was their community engagement manager. That's what I got hired to do. So I'm just in there doing my program. We were in our weekly get togethers called Phoenix Rising. That's the day everybody comes in and hangs out and we eat and share information. I can't remember what we were talking about, but it was something about gender because they had some issues sometimes with the trans women coming through because, in that age range, the trans women particularly in black communities, when you talk about the distinction about seeing yourself in community, in a black queer [00:30:00] community, we have to be Together because we're being hit from all sides.

So you'll be all together. And so the trans women were with the trans guys, historically, and so they'll still be coming through and it'd be some issues around that. Ultimately, the trans women got their own group. But something came up about gender identity, or how we identify. And I'm leading the group. And I was like, yeah I identify as a queer trans man. And you could hear a rat pissing on cotton. It was that quiet. And nobody said anything. We finished the group. They didn't say anything. So that was an interesting thing, because these were black gay men, and they were used to black gay men leading that group, and when they asked me to apply for the job, I was like, but I'm not a black gay man, and they were like, Oh, but you'll be good for that.

I was like, okay, and so I did it 

Kai: Mm. Mm. Mm hmm. Mm 

ShawnD: I was gay for pay for 40 hours a week But there was some pushback from some of the guys I would get, transphobic comments. Some [00:31:00] didn't want to respect my leadership

Because I was transmasculine. But at the end of the day, I had everybody's respect, I grew that program, and my legacy remains at BBE. I came into a amazing program that had been led by two amazing black gay men for years. So I had some large shoes. To fill. 

One of the programs I started, was Brothers Who Read. It's a book club. I mean, I had to do a lot of changes in that group. I was like, it's not structured and it's not useful for you all. It's just breeding chaos. So I structured the program in a way that we started with a meditation and we had a topic we discussed and we didn't kiki and throw shade across the room for two hours every Wednesday because I wasn't going to sign up for that. But that was an interesting time to come out there. And I did endure some Nasty comments 

Jackal: Thank you so much for sharing. I think that the piece of how the black male [00:32:00] queer or gay community. Disrespected your leadership, disrespected you as a person, disrespected you because you were trans.

It's very interesting in this conversation because a lot of the people and you included tell us that they came out of the lesbian community. And of course we have heard over and over again, how much the lesbian community there was a lot of pushback against that as well.

So, so thank you for sharing that. That was just really interesting. 

Kai: I'm wondering having worked in the aid serving organizations and working with long term survivors with HIV and just generally older gay men, cisgender gay men, some, there's an undercurrent of like old time misogyny and I having run a program, I would have people request services from me and they would specifically say they only wanted to work with cisgender gay men. And I couldn't provide that for them and it was very upsetting. So [00:33:00] I would tell them and they're like, you know, somebody with a penis and I was so offended, you know, and I'm in a work environment trying to be really cordial and trying to really invite them into our services and manage that, you know, on the fly. So I just, that really, I feel that. And I can just imagine what that was like for you, Shawn.

ShawnD: I had that one kid look at me and tell me, you're just mad cause you have a pussy.

Jackal: Oh wow. 

ShawnD: I put people out though. I just be like, you can't be disrespectful. I said, okay, you can't come back here. I'm not doing that. I was like, you can have whatever feeling thought, transphobic belief, hold onto it, do that, but you're not going to spew that bullshit with me.

Jackal: So having been part of the lesbian community and then having this experience in the gay male community, did you get pushback from the lesbian community? Did you feel that your experience was [00:34:00] more positive when you came out and transitioned? And then I know you said you left from LA to then San Francisco, but what was your experience in that transition?

ShawnD: My friends didn't care.

My friends were supportive. I can say my experience with black lesbians.

When I've dated some, I'm not going to say all black lesbians, I can say I had an experience with a black lesbian, with two that I remember dating. Because I tend to date either bisexual, straight women, I'll date trans women but they see you as a lesbian.

This one girl I was going out with, she was in LA and just in our conversations she would say different things and I could tell she didn't get it. It didn't matter 'cause she wasn't going anywhere anyway. I knew that, which I was just like, that ain't you. That really ain't gonna work. You don't have to know about trans identities, but you need to get to know about it and I can't be the one to give you [00:35:00] everything.

Jackal: The thing that's really interesting is that somehow, some women, whether they be lesbian or however they identify, think that they're being open because they are still identifying you with a vagina- based gender identity or something. I don't know what is going on with that because you were a woman, because, like you can relate, right?

And it's like the trans experience doesn't necessarily feel like it relates to a female body reality, in any way, shape or form. So it's not as respectful as some women seem to think.

ShawnD: Honestly, they just have no information, no concept for trans. When we were coming up in L. A., I didn't know. I knew trans women. And I knew who called like 24 7, like the drag queens. They were probably trans women, but I [00:36:00] didn't have any exposure to trans people when I was a baby gay. As a baby gay, we had The drag queens, who I love to go see. I love a good drag show. But we did not have transmasculine people who are very butch. Shit, some of them, they probably was trans, I have several in my head right now. Those were men.

Jackal: Completely. And you know what's really sad, and it's part of the reason that Kai and I made this show is because 2008 when you transitioned or in even when you were coming out, 2002, between 2000 and 2008, we have been here. There were people alive and kicking in LA and San Francisco

But because of that kind of invisibility and that ability to blend and that message that we received to be stealth, we did not have any representation for the up and comings it was very difficult to find us. So anyways I'm I'm [00:37:00] still thinking that's a part of that experience.

ShawnD: I told you the first trans person that I really knew was A colleague of mine. I worked at the LA Gay and Lesbian Center. She's a white trans woman. Older approaching 60. That was in the late 90s, early 2000s. But she was very isolated, she had been in the Navy, she was a musician. She played, she used to bring her saxophone and play. She was nice. What threw me off was when she started dating this really young lesbian, like in her 30s, right? I was like why would you transition if you want to date a woman? is not understanding the difference between identity and orientation.

Kai: Yeah, it is. It is a learning thing. Mm 

ShawnD: why I have a lot of grace to an extent for cis folk who are just like, what?

And back to your question about when I'm dating these cis lesbians, and particularly black cis lesbians that, that were in my communities, where I grew up, [00:38:00] who, you have to have exposure to these academic terms, transgender, all this. We didn't have that stuff. That wasn't out there. And so they don't have a concept to hold on. They don't get it. All the stuff we've been talking about trans in the last, what, 10 years maybe? You got a lot more exposure across cultures. Before, that that was white people stuff. 

Kai: One of the things that I've experienced that I find not great for me is when lesbians will bring me into the fold, like you're one of us, you know, even if I'm presenting this and I actually am not one of you, like, I know you're trying to be affirmative, but you're also kind of being a not great,

Jackal: Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to talk about earlier, Kai. You said it a lot more eloquently than I did, but yeah it's not validating for you to bring me into the fold as a fellow lesbian when I have a transmasculine identity.

Kai: It doesn't feel great. It's like, [00:39:00] no, actually you need to really think about that. It's not helping me at all.

Jackal: Thank you for all of that. That was great. How do you think your social status you talked a lot about the white trans experience and how you had made your own black trans movie.

But how do you think your identities, social standings race, class abilities, even your sexual identity impacted your ability, your fears about transition. 

ShawnD: I didn't think about those things. Because one thing I certainly didn't think about is that I would transition and I would be a black man.

Jackal: yeah. In the United States in this era.

ShawnD: That I didn't think about. That is my biggest identity. I mean, that's all people see as a black man. How black men are treated. And then I also didn't realize that I would be transitioning to be a short man without a beard. Trying to live in this world where tall men [00:40:00] moved to the top, and so that when I finally had that realization, I was like, wow. Okay. Cause it's not hard to be taller than me. So, I think being black, a black man, is the identity that comes out the most. Because my transness is a need to know. 

Jackal: Hey. Shawn, I have a follow up question to that because it's not something I think about a lot, especially now but Kai and I both used to pack and I think both of us no longer pack, but talking about this thing of like promotion of like tall men with Penises with large penises. Do you pack? Do you, are you worried about that at your age now?

ShawnD: Nah, you know what? I had that little packer and that is too much to be doing. I was so sick of that thing. You have to put it in, you gotta clean it, you gotta put baby powder on it so it don't melt [00:41:00] away. Whatever, I have enough extra stuff on my body. I do not I packed maybe the first year. And now sometimes I do, if I have on shorts, if I'm sitting down, my legs are wide, and I'm in public, I might think about, is somebody paying attention to my crotch, but I'll tell you what one of my brothers told me a while back, because I used to have this paranoia about going to the men's room, that when I went to the bathroom, someone's going to notice that my feet were facing forward, right? Because I don't stand and pee. None of that. I don't know of anything that's going to let me do that. It's just too much.

I can't. It's hard enough just to fucking be black in this damn world. I'm not going to be packing and I'm not going to stand and pee. But so I was wondering about that and he said, Man, if somebody's in the bathroom looking at your feet, worried about what you're doing, they have bigger problems than you being trans. And everything told me that I do not care what people are doing in the, or how they're perceiving me in the bathroom, which is not even an issue.[00:42:00] 

Jackal: a funny story actually cause I work at a university and I, also sit down to pee. I don't use prosthetic And this past semester, for whatever reason, and I found this to be weird, okay, because men's rooms are, you go in, you do your business, you go out.

And these two students, and they happen to be black, but these two students would be in the bathroom every time that I would, like my morning pee after coffee, just talking, just shooting the shit. About their lives, about what they did on the weekend, about their family. I mean, just shooting the shit. From the time I went in, to the time I left, to the time I washed my hands and everything, every single time these kids were in there. And I was like, that's bizarre. Okay. Men don't do that for one. But one of the times, one of the last times I saw them before the end of the semester one of the guys said to his friend, and I overheard it something about me sitting down to pee, 

ShawnD: Oh, really? 

Jackal: [00:43:00] Yeah, like he whispered it to his friend, but they were weird. In my head, I'm thinking, what's weird, dude, is you two sitting in here in the bathroom talking . Get out of the bathroom. That's not normal. Anyways. Anyways.

ShawnD: That's one of the things I learned about going to the men's room. You just go in and use the bathroom and come out, like people aren't really talking and somebody starts talking, I'm looking at you weird, because guys do not be talking. They just go and they pee and they don't wash their hands.

I do notice That's inapprpriate.? 

Jackal: anyways. Okay. So, as Kai mentioned, our show is called stealth. And so we like to always ask Shawn, what does stealth mean to you?

ShawnD: For me, I don't live stealth as a rule, but I appreciate the ability to be able to blend when I want to, and I don't have to be out because being trans is not at the forefront of my brain when I wake up. It isn't. It's not what I'm thinking about. I'm just getting up. I gotta go to work. I gotta walk the dog.

I gotta get coffee. I gotta [00:44:00] eat. Trans only comes up when trans comes up. Usually if I'm working, I'm doing a trans talk. When I'm going out, I'm going in community. I'm talking to a trans friend, but like about my trans identity when I'm talking to people throughout the day. It's not an issue. I think it is an important thing for people to be able to choose for themselves because I understand why they choose. Because visibility, there's a price to visibility, I was even thinking about, as we're coming up on this time, we got about another week, right, before the shit show starts.

Jackal: Yeah.

ShawnD: I was looking over the website for Stealth. I was like, ooh, these people could come over here, they're going to see my picture, and da. And I'm like, it's important that they come over here and they see my picture and they see my story, if that's what they want.

Jackal: Yeah. What's funny or not funny, actually, when you mentioned this ability to be stealth, our ability to blend and my fears especially trans youth in particular, but also trans [00:45:00] women across the board. Right? Trans women who do not have as much ability to be stealth, to be invisible, to blend.

And how do I, as a trans man who does have that privilege, support them? And I think you're right, one of the things, not just doing this podcast, but having my picture on our website somehow is my two cents in support of trans women and people across the board.

ShawnD: I've always been super sensitive to that about trans women, cause my training partner is a trans woman, and we'd be traveling and be out, and I'm always hypervigilant. I'm looking around because I know they don't see me. They mostly will see me with her.

Then I'll get affiliated, maybe I'm gay or whatever they want to make up in their mind about that. But I have seen it. I remember coming out of the subway in New York with my colleague and this one guy just was looking at us. And [00:46:00] I'm like, Oh my God, if we could just please get out of here and just walk. So what I love about her, cause she's very visibly trans. She is not ever paying attention to what people are doing like that. And I'm sure that's just a way to take care of yourself because if they're going to be looking at you.

So if you're paying attention, like why do that to yourself. But I have been that way. I remember I was walking down market not too long ago. I just finished up a focus group and it was a young, two young trans girls and. There were these workers outside of this organization that picks up trash and, in the downtown area or whatever. And the girls, they just walking, young girls 20. Just cute, just walking, they getting ready to go do they thing. We've been in the focus group all day. And this whole group was talking about, that's a man, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, why aren't you minding your business? See, that's when you can intervene. My stealthness, because I do that frequently, like people don't know, and so they'll start saying some transphobic thing. So I told those people, like, why [00:47:00] are you worried about what they're doing? And then I keep walking, right? I remember the guy at the liquor store in my community, gross little guy, always talking about some girl he's trying to screw. And I'm like, ain't nobody screwing you unless you're behind it. I already know. But he was talking about, I was on the date app and it was this tranny. She came out, I was like, tranny? I said, you mean a transgender woman? Yeah. I said, you don't call transgender women trannies because that's derogatory. You don't get to call them that. And he was like, yeah, but she didn't even say anything. I said, you liked her. You was talking to her. You were attracted to her. So how are you going to be mad at her about you being attracted to her? And if she comes out and tells you she's trans and it's not your thing, that's all you need to say.

There's no reason for you to say the things that you're saying to me. Yeah, I know, he didn't know what was up with me. Because he'll say something about gay people, I'll be like, what are you talking about? And so even though I'm not seeking to live stealth, I don't have a problem. I'd say that just like, one of the things [00:48:00] I think that has happened to me too, because I know I blend.

When I do encounter queer people in the world, being queer, I notice how they will turn their eyes, because I'm a black man, right? They turn their eyes, they don't want to look, and I always want to meet them when they smile. I remember once I was in the airport, there's these lesbians in the little store, and they were like kissing, whatever they were doing. And I just smiled at them, and it was probably, it was a while ago, so it was weird probably to them what is wrong with him, right?

And I had to remember who they're seeing.

Kai: Mm hmm.

ShawnD: See. A black queer trans man. They see a black man. They're probably reading as cis and maybe straight. I get read as gay sometimes, so I don't know.

But I think I want to be in that. What I'm seeking to do is create safety for queer folk that, black men get the rap [00:49:00] of being the wrong rap.

Because it ain't just black men that are transphobic or homophobic. There are transphobic and homophobic black men, for sure, but it isn't the makeup, because you're on the strength that you're a black man. And so being able to shift that narrative, so you counter a black man that is not giving you homophobic vibes or whatever.

Kai: Thank you. You know, I think when the election results came out, I had a couple of people say, are you going to take your website down? And are you going to stop doing your show because the shit's going to go down? And I thought about it for like two seconds and thought, absolutely not of all the times, this is one of the most important times to be there

Jackal: One and a half seconds. We thought about it.

Kai: But, and I really appreciate how you talked about the complexities of that, Shawn. And I also think advocating and being allies for our community members. is really [00:50:00] important too. The other day I was at the dog park and there were these two young folks. I think one was trans feminine and one was maybe trans masculine and they were young and they were walking around. And I was so smitten. They were so cute. And I was smiling, right. And I'm talking to their dog and I wanted to say we're siblings, but I was like, they're going to think I'm just some old weird dude, just grinning, with my dog, like, why is he talking to me anyway?

Thank you for sharing that. 

ShawnD: To that point, though, Kai, smiling, because I do, and I do want to come out and there have been instances where I probably have said, we share community, but I remember when I was in Mexico City, I saw these young queer kids, they was about to go out, and I thought it was so cool, and I remember one came up and asked me for a light. And I didn't come out, I didn't come out to them. I don't think I did, but I remember I was just pleased to have that, you know?

Kai: Yeah. We have lots of opportunities. Have there been times where you've lived a non [00:51:00] to no disclosing life or experience?

ShawnD: When I came out, when I realized I was queer, gay, or whatever I came out as a lesbian, I just bust out. When I realized I was trans, I just busted out and I had to tell, when I was telling my family I would just tell them. I don't have any problem leaving people behind. I really don't, because for me, it was The experience of realizing that part of myself and that I could fully begin to express it. I wasn't even considering all the other backlash because it was more about an internal thing for me and a healing thing for me.

Ooh, yeah, okay, it was super important for me to be in my whole body. So then I can work on these other things, other areas of healing I need to address.

And that's what I can work on now, but I don't have to deal [00:52:00] with, not feeling right in my body.

I can tell you when I first started taking testosterone and it takes a minute, right? It takes a minute. And sometimes it just, you don't know how much it's going to take. Like this is all the beard I'm getting. And the little hairs on my body, they're very light, not, I'm just not going to be a hairy guy.

I wanted to be a hairy guy, but I'm not going to, remember the time, the first time I was walking through my bedroom and I caught a glimpse of myself. And I stepped back, I said, who was this guy? Cause it was just that one morning, I'll never forget it. I was like, wow, when I look at myself now and I look in the mirror I mean, I think I look the same, but it's just like seeing how I see my mother in me and how I see my father in me. It's still really interesting, but yeah, it's just, yeah.

Kai: I'm really impressed, Shawn, when you haven't had something or you were told to be a certain way, like you had a therapist that was [00:53:00] saying, no. You're seeking out information and community on your own and information that you're creating your own film, to share your experience. You've been extremely involved in community and done a lot for communities. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you keep it going? How do you persist and keep it fresh like that?

ShawnD: I just have an activist nature, it's just How I am, I'm going to advocate. I'm really about justice and so in my transition and coming out to myself and getting involved with community. One of the first things that I remember doing, I would do panels.

I remember being on the panel during the Queer Film Festival and started building community and then the first Trans Day of Visibility, the very first one that was celebrated, I organized an event. I had Storm Miguel and Shana Virago performing on the quad which was amazing that I could even do that. They are so awesome. But they did that for me. They came and they both, they performed. [00:54:00] My capstone project for graduate school, I looked at how to create a trans inclusive college campus, and looked at policies, and that's how I found out that they had trans healthcare, and that's how I was able to get top surgery. I didn't pay anything for it. I was very lucky. Nothing. It was completely free to me.

I was invited to join the board of the Transgender Law Center. And so I joined the board and that's when I really started learning about policy. I'm not out marching. 

 In my day to day work, I do HIV capacity building with health care teams. And within my program, I have three programs focused on trans health. I have a trans health virtual training series that really targets novice providers that want to learn about HIV and gender affirming care. It's an eight session program that we run annually. I also host a trans health communities of practice where providers can come in and bring cases and do case discussions on difficult [00:55:00] cases. I was The director for the second one. I put together a three day intensive. training for them, where they included site visits, meeting with trans programs, getting one on one didactics from people here that are doing trans health care. And that group in particular wanted to learn to do sexual health assessments in Spanish, because they were working with a Spanish speaking population and they spoke Spanish, but they wanted to make sure, they were talking about in a way that the language crossed over.

Jackal: That's awesome.

ShawnD: Those are the kinds of things I present at conferences. I recently served on the Global Advisory Board for Gilead's Purpose 2 study, which was the first PREP study to include transmasculine people. So I was on that, giving them feedback on how to meaningfully engage transmasculine people.

Jackal: Amazing. Yeah.

ShawnD: not involved on a day to day. I don't necessarily need a trans support because trans [00:56:00] is just One part of my identity. When I think about community, I just think I've done what I can do.

I'm not going outside. It's time for the young people. And quite frankly, what I would really like to see in the trans community is some kind of, we need spaces of healing for trans people because we are a very unhealed community.

We got to come together because if you don't come together, it's going to be hard, it's going to be even more difficult to get through this period that we don't even know how they're going to come at us yet.

Jackal: I hear you. I hear you. Hey, so besides all the activism and things that you've done in your life, can you mention some other milestones that you're proud of?

ShawnD: I'm proud that I left Los Angeles and I came to the Bay Area because that is, I had a lot of challenges, and I think a lot of the angst was around not being accepted, not feeling comfortable in my body as a lesbian or a dyke. Just wasn't able to [00:57:00] thrive in Los Angeles and When I came to the Bay Area, one of the first things I noticed, and this was in 2000, was that butch studs worked and did whatever.

They were everywhere. Whereas in L. A., I felt like I was pigeonholed, like I had to be in this place, or I had to femm up, and that was something I was unwilling to do. It just doesn't work. That's not who I am.

I remember once going to get a job, and Oh my God, I had to put on this dress and these heels, and that was before I had a car. I had to walk this long distance and take a bus. I would never do that again. That was something me and my mother argued about a lot because she was like, if you could just do it I can't do that. So I'm very proud that I came up here and was successful because when I came up here, I hadn't finished school.

I was like 34, 35. I had some college, but I hadn't gotten a degree and I came back and I moved here in October of [00:58:00] 2000. I was in school in January of 2001. I stayed in school. I lost my mother in August of 2001.

Jackal: I'm terribly sorry about that.

ShawnD: But I kept going, and I got my undergrad degree, working full time, very proud of that. I then left, got out of there, graduated, went back to grad school, worked full time, got a graduate degree. And I was able to get, I rarely made a horizontal move, I always make a vertical move, so I would continue to excel in my career. So I'm very proud of that. I'm proud of when I graduated in undergrad, I graduated the top of the class.

What else am I proud of or milestones in my life? I did the ALC. That was something I always wanted to do. The AIDS Life Cycle. Ride your bike from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

Jackal: Wow.

ShawnD: That was really an excellent experience. The last one [00:59:00] is happening this year. I wanted to, but I waited too long to register. And everybody It's going to be a, it's going to be a, maybe I'll go to LA and watch them come over the finish line. Maybe I'll do something like that.

That would be interesting to do.

I'm proud of the ways that I take care of my mental health, that I have a lot of childhood trauma. I am a survivor of trauma, sexual trauma as a kid. And that even though it has created issues in my life that I continue to seek healing and identify tools for healing and be, I'm in therapy again.

So I'm glad about that. I'm working on some new stuff now, some new revelations and my life and Oh wow. I didn't know this was impacting me. Okay. This is what I'm doing now to heal that piece. So I'm proud of that. 

Jackal: I'm really happy for you. And I think that you've lived an amazing life. What is one thing that you'd like to say to the newer generation of trans and non binary.[01:00:00] 

ShawnD: Oh, that's a good question. Keep coming out, keep living your truth,

Jackal: Yeah.

ShawnD: And you have community. Reach out to the other, trans people in your community that you see doing work or people that are showing up the ways that you would like to be in the world and, follow that, but don't let what's going on in the world, I mean, stay safe, because visibility, there's a price to it. Don't fear. Live your truth. That's what I would say. Live your truth. 

Jackal: Nice. Thank you.

ShawnD: That is a healing thing.

Jackal: Right. And is there anything that you think we should have asked that we didn't? Famous last words of wisdom.

ShawnD: You all ask quite a bit of questions. Yeah, I can't think of anything else.

Jackal: Thank you so much for your time. 

ShawnD: Yeah!

Kai: Hey, Kai here. Jackal and I are excited to offer a members section on our webpage. As a member, you'll get ad free episodes with bonus material like transmasculine history. Here's a teaser. Let's get [01:01:00] started with famed African American gospel singer Wilmer Broadnax, the frontman for his own quartet called Little Axe and the Golden Echoes.

I should here mention that Little Axe was his nickname. He was a small guy, especially compared to his brother William, who went by the nickname Big Axe. Go to our website and sign up to become a member today.

Jackal: Now it's time for Transponder.

Today's trans joy segment is actually an encouragement to go buy a trans joy coffee mug. You can put coffee or tea or hot chocolate in it. Anything that you want for a hot beverage, why not show your trans joy? Pride by drinking it out of a trans joy coffee mug.

It is from Pridelity P-R-I-D-E-L-I-T-Y.com. Go to Pridelity today to buy your Trans Joy coffee mug. It's only $21. [01:02:00] And boy will it help you get through the next four years.

If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact our Instagram page at Transmasculine Podcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight Expertise and heartfelt stories.

We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. 

Kai: Good job today, 

Jackal: Jackal. Good job to you, Kai. 

Kai: Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before. the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience.

We also want you to know that the health and well being of our [01:03:00] community is our number one priority. 

Jackal: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids.

We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community. 

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up.

Jackal: We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. We are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests.

We do not represent any outside 

Kai: entity. Remember, [01:04:00] if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know your feedback and support are essential to our show success. Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media and rate us on your favorite streaming platform.

You can find us on Instagram, trans masking podcast on X, formerly Twitter. At podcast stealth on YouTube stealth, the trans masculine podcast, and be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast. com. Thank you for joining us.