Syrus
Dr. Syrus Marcus Ware is an Assistant Professor at the School of the Arts at McMaster University. A Vanier scholar, visual artist, activist, curator and educator, Ware uses drawing and painting, installation, and performance to explore social justice frameworks and Black activist culture. His work has been shown widely across Canada in solo and group shows, and his performance works have been part of local and international festivals. He is part of the Black August Arts Residency Collective and a cofounder of Black Lives Matter-Canada. Syrus is curator of the That’s So Gay show and a past co-curator of Blackness Yes!/Blockorama. In addition to penning a variety of journals and articles, Syrus is the co-editor of the best-selling “Until We Are Free: Reflections on Black Lives Matter in Canada (URP, 2020).
Syrus' recent curatorial projects include That’s So Gay (2016-2021), Re:Purpose (Robert McLaughlin Gallery, 2014) and The Church Street Mural Project (Church-Wellesley Village, 2013). Syrus is also co-curator of The Cycle, a two-year disability arts performance initiative of the National Arts Centre occurring from 2016-2017.
He is part of the PDA (Performance Disability Art) Collective and co-programmed Crip Your World: An Intergalactic Queer/POC Sick and Disabled Extravaganza as part of Mayworks 2014. He is the co-editor of the best-selling Until We Are Free: Reflections on Black Lives Matter in Canada (URP, 2020) and has also co-edited Queering Urban Justice: Queer of Colour Formations in Toronto (University of Toronto Press, 2017) and Marvellous Grounds: Queer of Colour Histories of Toronto (Between the Lines Publishing, 2017).
Syrus is a core-team member of Black Lives Matter—Toronto and a co-curator of Blackness Yes!/Blockorama. He is also on the executive team of the Wildseed Centre for Art and Activism and a Faculty Member of the inaugural Black Arts Fellowship. Syrus has won several awards, including the TD Diversity Award in 2017, was voted “Best Queer Activist” by NOW Magazine (2005), and was awarded the Steinert and Ferreiro Award (2012). Syrus completed his PhD at York University in the Faculty of Environmental Studies in 2021 and is currently an Assistant Professor in the School of the Arts (Theatre and Film Studies) at McMaster University.
Instagram: @syrusmarcus
Website: https://www.syrusmarcusware.com/
S5-OPEN generic+Content warning
Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back to Stealth A Trans Masculine Podcast. I'm Jackal.
Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000.
We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.
Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one, for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence. And that due to that, Our stories are very often overlooked.
Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community. We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us [00:01:00] has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways.
Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers, we are parents, we are professionals, academics, and advocates. We push for human rights and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition.
Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube. These are trying times and we want to acknowledge that here in the States and throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities.
Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast. com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.
Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living [00:02:00] community. We are healthy.
We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved and we welcome you to our stories. We want to give a content warning for this episode. There is talk about suicide and mental health issues.
Kai: Remember, you can go to our website, transmasculinepodcast. com for resources for crisis lines, including the Trevor Project, Trans Lifeline, and Suicide Prevention Lifeline.
Transmasculinepodcast. com.
Sean Aaron: Hey, this is Sean Aaron, he, him, his. And I'm here to tell you about Dem Bois podcast. I'm the host of Dem Bois podcast. And as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color. As we share our transition stories, the podcast not only amplifies the voices of trans men of color, but it raises awareness and conversations around our lived experiences.
You can listen to [00:03:00] the podcast by going to dembois.org forward slash podcast. That's D E M B O I S. org forward slash podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next episode.
Jackal: So we're bantering and Kai has something very touching to talk about, which is how we stay connected.
Kai: Yeah, one of the things that I've so appreciated about our show are the stories that we hear and connecting with new folks and then the older folks, the folks that we've known for a while and how life saving that can be for us to connect. And I just am so appreciative of all of the guests that we've had.
And then the folks who have said, Hey, I want to be on the show or I love your show. And, it means so much to me. I didn't know we could grow old.
Jackal: Yeah. Totally. I just [00:04:00] want to give a shout out to Dallas who has another mentoring group and he lives relatively close to me and he reached out to me and he said, Hey, we should connect in person.
We haven't done it yet, but I really do want to do that. I've been thinking about him and how to stay in touch with people of my generation
Kai: I think one of the things that was so special about Camp Lost Boys too The way Rocco and his team set it up is it was specifically for trans men of different, ages and experiences. And I really appreciated that. We have a very large trans masc community and supportive persons who love us.
In fact, we had a small gathering of folks from the Pacific Northwest cause there's so much out here. We had dinner. There were nine of us at dinner, last weekend and we had great food and a great company and it was just nice to reconnect, and how wonderful that is.
I also got to connect with Reed. Who's been a guest on our show twice. He's my coffee buddy and my litter mate. And last night he did a book reading [00:05:00] his memoir is out. It's called work in progress. And he asked me to be the Q and A person, which I've never done.
Yeah, that was really great to hear him talk. And I learned a lot more about Reid than I knew, and I've known him since 93.
Jackal: Wow. I love the title too, because of the questions, are you fully transitioned? That question and I love it when our guests, say I'm still transitioning, right?
Like I'm always transitioning, even though my appearance might be as I want it now. Life is transition, right? And so that title work in progress just seems so appropriate and. Profound.
And, before I give it back to you, I want to say also, thank you to our guests, we've had 65 guests approximately on our show, 65 individual unique stories that are [00:06:00] so valuable to our entire history. They're so unique. They're so different from each other. Some of them have similarities. A lot of them, generationally have similarities. But we owe so much to those that have gone before us. I don't know if people, are members and they've listened to our transitory segment, which we had for two seasons.
But there are just so many stories out there that we that we own that, that are ours, and that really contribute to our entire community
Your story, young people out there listening is so important to our story totally
Moving forward. And I just appreciate everybody who's listening, who's listened and who's participated in this podcast.
Kai: Yeah. Thank you, Jackal. And we have the benefit of knowing people who transitioned before us that they're still kicking. Like our oldest guests chronologically was Jude and Jason are, I think, contemporaries. They both transitioned around the same time.
And I really appreciate, [00:07:00] all the work they've done in advocacy and presence that they have that just real persistent. Wonderful selfless work that they've done. And then there's James Green in there too. I want to thank them and you're absolutely right.
We wouldn't be here if we didn't have guests. I'm so happy to have talked to everybody and had the opportunity to do that. It just reinforces this idea, stay connected.
Jackal: Also, remembering that mentor program that we have is another way to stay connected. If you feel isolated in your region join our list for mentoring on both sides of the scale, whether you're an older trans person or you're a younger trans person or more newly transitioning trans person that can really help you.
Kai: All right. So winter holidays for everyone are going to be really different. And we're recording this before the winter starts, but we are anticipating lots of gatherings and wanted to talk to you about rituals and family traditions and how you, how [00:08:00] your family and loved ones celebrate this time of year.
Jackal: Yeah. I want to back up a little bit because it is before the holidays, but it's actually, we're even talking about this before Halloween, right? Halloween is a fun, big deal. One of my nieces, the one who lives in Norway She loves Halloween. And she just goes all out and she just sent a picture of they carved like 12 pumpkins,
Kai: Wow.
Jackal: And they're like the shit like one of them is like a full on skeleton, whatever she's always super talented and just really fun.
So they do that and she's having her Halloween parties. I'm sure that's going to be exciting.
Kai: Okay, this is gonna betray my American centrism. Okay. I've never even imagined Halloween outside of our country.
Jackal: Yeah. Yeah. I don't, they don't do trick or treating in Norway. Shannon brought Halloween to Norway.
Kai: Got you. look out.
Jackal: With a vengeance, man. Like there might be Halloween parties and stuff like, here and there [00:09:00] are, there's a contingent of expats or Americans in Norway.
And in Mexico, which I have a lot of familiarity with Halloween is not the thing, although it, is becoming more popularized maybe because kids love candy. I don't know, but trick or treating still isn't a thing. But they do have their own ritual, which is the day of the dead, which I've participated in on a number of occasions and actually Speaking of the school that I am at the community college that I work at, we are doing the Latino Alliance and the group that's called Armonía Hispana are putting on a Day of the Dead event.
Actually, it's. Three days 30th, 31st and the 1st, and they're building two altars, they're doing face painting, which I don't know if you know what Catrina's are, but you probably would recognize them if you saw them. It's the, the skeleton face mask with the flowers around the [00:10:00] eyes and like decorations, very beautiful. There's so many little rituals around Day of the Dead that are amazing.
Kai: For those of us who aren't familiar with Day of the Dead and it's, what the origin story is, talk to us a little bit about that.
Jackal: It's funny because we wanted to do an educational piece with this and I have always thought that Day of the Dead originated in Aztec culture and indigenous cultures in Mexico, and then was a kind of synchronism between Catholicism and indigenous religions. And I'll talk about INAH, which is the Instituto Nacional de Antropología e Historia, which is a very renowned research center in Mexico. They do have an article that supports that theory, but they have another article by the same institution that says, the origins are totally from Europe and it was brought over and it wasn't an indigenous [00:11:00] ritual at all.
I haven't seen anything similar in Europe. So I have to think that it has some sort of synchronism in Latin America, indigenous culture because it seems like that would have continued on if it was originally from Europe. So anyways, there's multiple theories out there, but the most popular perception is that it's an synchronistic celebration between indigenous and Catholicism.
Kai: Such a complicated legacy of colonization and colonizers coming in and building churches on top of sacred indigenous sites. And yes. And that's an interesting story. So like about Day of the Dead itself, it about? Yeah.
Jackal: So it is to welcome back the dead. So basically there is the idea that the dead don't die, basically. It's that idea of heaven, you have an [00:12:00] afterlife but it's even more so in the Mexican indigenous culture so there is a thin veil which is Halloween ish too, like it's the day that it's the thinnest veil between the realms of the living and the people who have gone before and invite them back.
You put on the altar, you put the bread or the person's favorite foods and you put something to drink very typically alcohol so that you're welcoming them back, and inviting them like you're celebrating their return.
Kai: That's interesting that the concept of death so I did an Irish studies program being of Irish origin and the concept of that thin veil. There's a poem that I really liked. It talks about a thin veil is thin as gossamer. And it's one of the big themes in the Irish history that I recall is this sense of borders. How are you going to identify a border? It's almost trying to catch where the wave starts or begins, when it comes into shore so like the connection [00:13:00] between, like our physical selves of living and the dead is, it's an illusion, and those borders and how we're all connected, is there a sense of grief and loss
Jackal: No. In fact, it's supposed to be in Aztec culture, disrespectful to grieve or mourn the dead because they're not dead. They're continuing on you just can't see them and participate in that. So it's funny, right? Because for me, just because I believe somebody. Is still out there just in a form that I can't see or participate in, doesn't mean I don't grieve them. I have tons of friends that are still living that I am sad that I'm not able to go to their house tomorrow. You know what I mean? So like that connection, that personal interaction, that physical interaction still, so I would make a horrible Aztec person.
Kai: I think you're right. You can long to be with someone physically. And what's interesting is having [00:14:00] lost people close to us, like what people pass away in some ways I feel a closeness to them that I didn't feel when they were living. And Reed actually talked about that in his book, the work in progress. I recall in, as a teenager, my friend's dad died And I remember talking to him in my, like before I would go to sleep or, and always feeling like there was such a connection there with people who pass away. And I wasn't sure and fearful about whether or not that would be true for folks that were really close to me, like my mom, and because the grief has been immense with that, we've talked about this with our parents and I talk to her all the time and I feel her there and we didn't talk all the time, but there's a thing that she would like, or, oh, really missing her today.
Or I thinking hard about her today now. And it's such an interesting thing.
Jackal: Yeah. And it's complicated, right? [00:15:00] Because I loved my mom. I did, but she was difficult. And for me, her passing was a closing of a chapter. It was, An end of an era. And it was a relief, it was a relief. And I do hope that she's happy on the other side.
I do hope that she's happier on the other side that she was ever in real life. Because, that was a very difficult relationship for all of my siblings. And I made my peace with it. In a lot of ways, more than my other siblings did or have My stepdad, my dad that I grew up with that was grief too and I think once we had the funeral, I think about him still, I think about her still, and I think about things that he or she taught me and feel grateful for those things, but I don't grieve like I hear other people grieving or like I imagine them grieving when I see [00:16:00] their Facebook posts, for example, I don't feel like I miss them and it's not to say that I don't honor them. And so I just want to recognize that there are a lot of complicated relationships out there that might be like people are still estranged from their past loved ones, even though they're there, they've already gone, gone to the other side, it's okay not to grieve,
Kai: Yeah, exactly. I think you're taking a very practical approach to who we are, like these physical bodies in our relationships. If we have if somebody's an asshole, and I'm not saying your mom, right? Or if somebody, disowns you or like they're, they harm you, it can be so complicated.
And I think we all have different connections to our folks who are living, to persons who are living and when they are no longer physically in this realm, we're all going to have different experiences and all of them are okay.
Adam: Today's interview is with Dr. Syrus Marcus Ware. Syrus [00:17:00] is an assistant professor at the School of the Arts at McMaster University. A Vanier scholar, visual artist, activist, curator, and educator, he uses drawing and painting, installation, and performance to explore social justice frameworks and Black activist culture.
His work has been shown widely across Canada in solo and group shows, and his performance works have been part of local and international festivals. He is part of the Black August Arts Residency Collective, and a co founder of Black Lives Matter Canada. Syrus is curator of the That's So Gay Show, and a past co curator of Blackness Yes slash Blackorama.
In addition to penning a variety of journals and articles, Syrus is the co editor of the best selling book, Until We Are Free, Reflections on Black Lives Matter in Canada.
Syrus's tranniversary is the year 2000, the same as Marty, Kyle, Curtis, Zion, Rocco, Thomas, and Alexander, so go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that [00:18:00] year.
We'll be leading in this episode with more music from Ed Vargas.
Ed Vargas: Sit with me, let's play some cards Across the world, or in our backyard Let's reminisce about our first kiss This hand you dealt is a real doozy The queen of gin, you always win. A little grin, and my heart swims. I might not be the best dance partner. And you don't want to share your snacks. We're gonna get dusty on this trail.
But baby, I think we're on the right track. [00:19:00] Seventeen years since we first met, I caught your eye, but I was shy. Ten years ago, just blocks away, I went in for that very first kiss. I tried to sneak, you turned your cheek. Your knees went weak and fell to the street. I might not be the best dance partner, And you don't want to share your snacks.
We're gonna get dusty on this trail, But baby I think we're on the right track.[00:20:00]
Everyone's lost on Tokyo Streets. Should we divorce? No, of course cost.
And we'll leave you real peeved. There's no relief from the heat, but you're still sweet and pretty neat. I might not be the best dance partner and you don't want to share. We're gonna get dusty on this trail. But baby, I think we're on the right track. [00:21:00] Baby, I think we're on the right track.
Jackal: so welcome to Stealth, the transmasculine podcast. We're here with Syrus. How are you doing today, Syrus?
Syrus: I'm well,
Jackal: Yeah, thank you. So you got recommended to us by Rupert but we don't know each other.
So do you know our show and how do you know Rupert?
Syrus: I found out about your show getting connected through Rupert and Rupert and I have known each other for probably about 25 years at this point. I came out as trans in 2000. And at that time, there wasn't a lot of us who were super out and in part that was because of the way that being forced to go through the gender identity clinic, which encouraged you to take on this other life and move to a different city and all of those things that were the late nineties, it wasn't a lot of us.
So we did know each other and beat, we were in community together. And then of [00:22:00] course, Being in Tkaronto Rupert has done so much in this city and so much across this country. So really I think everybody knows Rupert.
Jackal: Awesome. Thank you so much.
Kai: So you are giving us a really nice segue because you mentioned the era in which you first met trans guys and trans mask folks. Talk to us about that. How did you learn about trans masculine identities, Syrus?
Syrus: When I was 14, is that, I think that's how old you are when you're in grade nine. I was, Starting to, I guess you would say date, but I mean it was very chaste, but I was starting to date and I was dating this person in high school and the extent of it was that they would write me notes and pass them to me after each class.
It was like pretty racy. That was
Kai: Sounds like you're going steady.
Syrus: And we would talk on the phone late at night after our folks had gone to bed. And I remember having this conversation with them. And he's since [00:23:00] transitioned and he at the time said, there's something I have to tell you. When I grow up, I'm going to, become a man.
I am a man and this is my life and I just really needed you to know. And I remember at the time thinking everybody feels that way. of course, I felt that way too,
Jackal: Wow.
Syrus: So anyways, I really hadn't considered the possibility that that wasn't what everybody was thinking.
I'm So that was, just the backdrop. And then when I came out as trans in 2000, I had already been around a lot of trans community. I was working at what was then called the Women's Center at the University of Toronto, now the Center for Women and Trans People, and were supporting and around a lot of the organizing that was happening in relation to the delisting of gender affirming surgeries from OHIP that had happened in 1998 because of Mike Harris. And there was a lot of activism and organizing to get it relisted. And mostly trans women leading the [00:24:00] charge and organizing protests and demonstrations outside of George Smitherman's You know, things like that. So I was around trans folks and there was also trans folks who were volunteering at the OPRG, the Ontario Public Research Interest Group, which was sharing the same building as the centre.
And so we were across the hall from each other and I joined the board there. So I was around a lot of trans folks. That was really a wonderful, thing to come out into, to come out into trans community. I know that's not always the case, particularly at that time. So I do feel really thankful that was my experience. doesn't mean that I didn't still have a lot of challenges and experienced a lot of transphobia and there was a lot of, things that happened, but to come out in a community of other trans guys and other trans folk was really beautiful.
Kai: Thank you. For those of us who aren't in Canada, or who don't know much about that era in the history, talk to us a little bit about the type of activism you're doing. You said outside of the clinics was it about access to healthcare and gender affirming care
Syrus: Yeah, it was [00:25:00] really a big issue. In Ontario, the trans care was funneled through something called the Gender Identity Clinic. And it was housed at what was then the Clark Institute for Psychiatry, then what eventually became CAMH, the Center for Addiction and Mental Health. And they gatekeeped everything. And there was all of these, I think this is not unusual to Ontario, this is very similar to a lot of gender clinics all across Turtle Island, but they had a very strict application process that really anyone who was non binary or who was trans, but also gay or trans, but also a lesbian, who, dared to be a trans woman who wore pants, do not apply.
They really made it hard. So what was happening at the time was kind of early internet organizing. And so what I saw happening in Tkaronto and colonial known as Toronto was these, I guess they would have been websites, but they were like [00:26:00] early websites where people had posted their answers.
So once they got through the gatekeeping, if they succeeded in getting through by mostly saying what needed to be said, not saying what was true in order to get access, they would post their answers to this list. It was like a 20 or 30 page questionnaire that you had to send in photos of yourself, quote unquote, cross dressed, which for us was
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: You know, like all of those,
Just these really harmful Things. People Posted their answers. They posted their answers to help each other to get through it. So that was some of the organizing that was happening, helping each other to get access to health care. When my care is delisted,
the coverage, cause we have socialized healthcare here.
So a lot of things are covered and the gender affirming surgery was covered up, to, to a point you had to go through it. gender clinic, but it was covered. When Mike Harris delisted it through this sort of right wing rhetoric of like, how dare we be supporting trans people it was horrific.
A lot of people had their care immediately interrupted, people who were in the middle of a process. And they were some of the first folks to pose a challenge and [00:27:00] say, this is actually discrimination. And started organizing. But I think that for a lot of folks, this was also an opportunity to say, not only do we want this to be relisted, under the Ontario Health Insurance Plan or OHIP, but we want it to be different. We want decentralized access to care. So if you're in Timmins, which is, maybe a two hour plane ride to Toronto, you shouldn't have to come down to CAMH just to get access to care. So you should be able to see a doctor in Timmins who could, quote unquote prescribe, whatever gender affirming care that it was that you needed. We wanted to support clinics all over the province to be able to support trans people to have gender affirming care. So there were things like that became part of what people were organizing around and advocating for. And through this process, a trans community was forming a visible Trans community was forming.
So the activism actually fueled the creation of a very visible trans presence. There had always been a trans presence in the city. Just [00:28:00] calling some names. Of course, we've mentioned Rupert Raj, but also Jackie Shane and Monica Forrester, and Nick Redmond, there's all of these folks, who, we're doing this incredible work of of being and creating and doing but in general, there was a much more visibility that started to happen after these protests and some of this organizing, and
Really formed a very visible trans community that led to things like, the creation of the first trans march in Toronto and the creation of the first trans stage at the Pride Festival and, seeing more trans folk. Going on to the board for Pride or becoming, the heads of organizations, not that's the measure of everything. I'm trying to destabilize the system and maybe live in a more abolitionist way, but, think it is important to have trans leadership as Raven Wing says, to make you question, and that started to happen. And so that was part of the organizing and activism.
Kai: Thank you so much. And it sounds very familiar. You're right. To many of us who transitioned during that time and also just politically the climate in which we did that and how interesting it is that things are repeating [00:29:00] and, the more things change, the more things stay the same because there's so much backlash right now. And people are trying to take our rights away and our access to care. So I really appreciate you sharing that. So you're an activist, you're involved, you're surrounded by community. How did you start your transition, whatever that means to you?
Syrus: I really wanted to go on testosterone and started a process of trying to get access. And at the time there was one doctor who was known to see trans guys and, You would go to see him once a year and he would write you a year prescription no questions asked and he would take one new patient a week and the list was long and, we would help each other to try to get in right.
So I was waiting to try to get in on this doctor's list. And in the meantime I was going, around to all the places I could think of. And trying to find somewhere that wouldn't say you have to go to the gender identity clinic. I mean at this point it was delisted. Why?
Why would I go to the gender identity clinic? They're not going to pay for it anyways, why would I need to go there? [00:30:00] Also, I don't believe that I am a mad person, but this experience of being trans isn't in any way related to madness, and I don't need to go to the Center for Addiction and Mental Health
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: to find out if I can get access to a hospital. testosterone. So I went to a clinic on Sherburn and explicitly said to the doctor, that I was interested in getting a prescription for testosterone, that I did not want to go to the gender identity clinic. And then if that was what she was going to refer me to, I didn't want the care. And she said, and I quote, Wow, this is so exciting. A trans person who said family medicine would be boring. And I was like, huh. So of course, when I was at work maybe two weeks later at my job, uh, not on my home phone number at my job, this doctor from the gender identity clinic calls my work and says, I'm here to talk to you about your gender identity disorder. And I was like, who is this? And she's I'm so and from the gender identity clinic at [00:31:00] CAMH. I was like, how did you get this number?
Kai: Oh my God.
Syrus: I said, I don't have gender identity disorder. And she said, no, I have a referral here. You're supposed to be getting treatment for your gender identity disorder. And I said, I'm trans. And it's not a disorder, and I don't want to talk to you. And I was, at the time, I really believed, because of how powerful the gender identity clinic was at that time, I was worried that being rude to her would mean that she would call other doctors and prevent me from getting access to care.
I actually believed that. I don't know now, would that have happened? I'm not sure, but I really believed it because of how omnipresent this powerful clinic was in controlling. Whether we lived or died. And so I remember hanging up the phone and being completely shaken because I was like, so this doctor at this clinic, not only referred me to the gender I explicitly said, I didn't want to, but gave them my work number, like it was just so violating. Yeah, I, that clinic didn't work out. Then I went, I found out [00:32:00] maybe a year and a half in I remember actually talking to that same person who I had been on the phone with at 14. He had at this point transitioned. He had gotten signed up with the one doctor, maybe a couple of years earlier.
So he was all set. And I remember him saying, What's the rush? You can just wait. It's gonna happen. And I remember thinking he has no idea what he's talking about because, of course, he has access to his medication every week, right? I don't and I haven't had my top surgery and whatever.
So this is actually very urgent, it is, right? Often for some of us. I was really, trying to find, and I found out About this clinic that was opening up called the Sherbourne Health Center. And it was growing out of this legacy of the Wellesley hospital, which had done a lot of the early HIV and AIDS activism and saw all of those patients.
And it had to close down and it had, there had been this commitment through St. Mike's that it would be reopened and still serve as the same community. So they were prioritizing trans care. And I immediately went and signed up and became, I think, a I think I was the third patient in that clinic. I [00:33:00] saw Dr, I think her name was Laurie Steer
A real trans advocate and she was amazing. And I got on hormones. They didn't have a policy. They didn't have a plan because I was only the third patient. And so I think I did have to wait maybe a month and a half while they wrote the policy.
And so yeah, then I ended up getting access to testosterone eventually. And it was a life changing experience. And I ended up getting connected with. Top Surgeon a couple of years later, maybe 2007, I didn't have intergenerational wealth. I didn't have family support.
At that time, my family came around and is very supportive now, but at the time wasn't. And so I was really, and it wasn't covered by OHIP. It hadn't been really relisted yet. So I, did a fundraiser called Sexy Change and it was like, you The party to be at, thanks to my friends. They really hyped it up and they really helped to make it really special.
We rented a warehouse and, everybody played, Lal, which was this electronic duo that had just gotten back from Bangladesh. They [00:34:00] performed and all the sort of hot DJs, Cosmic Cat and Nick Red and all these folks DJed and performers performed and the local sex shops come as you are and good for her donated prizes.
And there was a raffle and it was just so beautiful. And I raised half of the funds for the surgery. And then the other half I got through a medical loan, had top surgery 2007, and was actually able to work with the surgeon at the time. I said to him, I'm really putting myself on the line here because, at any point a doctor can decide you're quote unquote, not trans enough to get the surgery. But I said to him, I want to have a child. Like I want to have a
Jackal: Wow.
Syrus: and I want to do my top surgery in a way that would allow me to potentially still nurse. So is there any chance that you could leave my nipples attached? And he did. He did it in a
Kai: Wow.
Syrus: me to ultimately nurse for my chest my, my child for seven months.
Kai: Wow.
Syrus: I feel really fortunate, really lucky that one that I was willing to not take any shit. And so I just kept fighting to do it the way that I wanted to do it. And I didn't [00:35:00] have to go to the gender clinic and, two that I, was able to ask for what I needed, even though that meant that I might have been denied care because I did get what I needed
Jackal: Yeah.
Syrus: it was wonderful to be able to feed my child a little bit of milk.
I'd never made enough. Cause they had taken most of the milk ducks, but. But there
And that's all that they need to line their gut, that colostrum and stuff. So I do feel really thankful. And yeah, I ended up going off of hormones, of course, to have a baby.
And then eventually we went back on them and, found out now I, now my doctor at the Sherburn is a trans woman of color. She's absolutely incredible. I just feel so fortunate that she's my doctor. She's so great. It's just such a gift to, to have come from those early days in the early 2000s and late nineties and to get the kind of care that I'm able to get now, I feel really thankful.
Jackal: Thank you so much. Wow. That's just so rich. So you mentioned a bunch of things one intergenerational wealth or not having it. And also this new doctor, a trans woman of color, you're a trans man of color. And one of the things that I'd like to ask [00:36:00] is how do you think your social standings like race and class, Abilities, impacted your ability, your fears, your desire to transition.
And especially with this connection with having a trans woman of color doctor now, how important is it to see yourself reflected in your life,
Syrus: Yeah I'll maybe answer the second part first. Yeah, it is absolutely a game changer to when I go to the doctor because my knee hurts or when I go to the doctor because I might have the flu, my doctor treats my knee and Sees whether I have the flu.
Jackal: right?
Syrus: know, the experience of transit, the doctor usually is that you go in because your knee hurts and they say what's going on with your testosterone?
Jackal: Yeah.
Syrus: Or do you think this is related to your top surgery? No.
Jackal: Yeah.
Syrus: So that I don't have to worry about that. Like I get treated as a patient who has a need that she can help, to support. So that is [00:37:00] absolutely a huge thing. And then I think she really gets that there's an impact on our social determinants of health because of white supremacy and racism.
So, She really understands that. So some of the things that happen in medicine and, for anyone who wants to read more about it, Paul Gilroy's 2000 book "Against Race", the first chapter is really about this but this idea that. Race was a social construct that was created, but now we often ascribe particular medical experiences to certain groups of people even, rather than saying, these particular people live in the same community and have access to the same food and have access to the same rest and resources.
And that might be the impact. They say all black communities are more, predisposed to diabetes as if being black was a genetic thing, right? So she gets, she doesn't say things in that way and I really appreciate it. I do think it really is important to see yourself reflected, particularly in healthcare that never happens, never ever.
So I do feel really thankful. And like my whole family goes to see [00:38:00] her, my, my co parent, who's also a trans guy. And, I do. It's just amazing that our family care is provided by this incredible doctor who also happens to be a trans woman of color. So as , a Black trans guy, that's huge.
Jackal: I just want to interrupt one second because I lived in Mexico for 10 years. And the group of people that are predisposed for diabetes are the indigenous population. And I have used this example to say that this is not a genetic racial group being predisposed. Because for me, if you're saying African Americans are predisposed in one country and indigenous people are being predisposed in a different country, then there's something else going on about economics and resources.
So I just have to say 100%. I agree with that. I'm sorry. I interrupted. Go ahead. Please.
Syrus: No, no, I appreciate it. And it's exactly that, right? And so to be able to be working with a doctor who gets that and who, she's [00:39:00] just incredible. She's really great.
She, does alot of support for youth in the community, and she's in a rock band
Jackal: That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Syrus: Bad. it's pretty great. And then I think, yeah, I'm a mad and disabled black trans man. And that absolutely affected my experience, coming out as trans, even though I said, it's wonderful. I came out into a trans community. I do feel very thankful for that. But there were few black people. or a few visible folks out and there, we were there, like I, Monica, I knew Nick, I knew, so I knew folks Raven Wings, but but it wasn't, like now there's lots and lots of Black trans people who are out in Tkaronto. It's a huge community and really beautiful, thriving community.
But at that early time, it was a bit hard. So we did a lot of work to try to not just see the regular, story in trans community, which was just showcasing white trans people, really, white trans guys, mostly, not even trans women, like white trans guys. And we tried to interrupt that.
So we started a group. Actually, I had [00:40:00] done a needs assessment for the AIDS Committee of Toronto about trans people's access to AIDS service organizations and found out that, of course, there was no resources for trans guys who were gay, bi, or queer. So we ended up starting a group called the Gay, Bi, Queer Trans Men's HIV Prevention Working Group.
Longest title ever. And we created PRIMED, which was the first ever sexual health resource for trans men who had sex with men. And it was Created really intentionally to interrupt that story. So it was, written by us, for us, it was created with community and all of the photographs, which were done by an artist for sex to see. Were all of trans men of color, mostly. There were some white trans guys in there, of course, but like mostly it was trans men of color. And trans men of color on the cover and it was, designed to actually make you still want to have sex after reading it. Cause a lot of the. Sexual health resources at the time were like, real kind of fearmongering. And and it talked about, harm reduction and it talked about, like just pregnancy, it talked about all of these things,[00:41:00]
Jackal: Wow.
Syrus: that we needed to know. So it ended up getting translated into all of these different languages, including Norwegian and Australian English, which I didn't know was a separate thing, and French and a lot of different languages. And it's used still, I think it's in its second edition now. So that was, pretty, amazing, just to get to do that and to create something where there was, disabled trans folks in the images, and
Jackal: awesome.
Syrus: that wasn't like an add on or a second thought.
So that was a big thing
Jackal: Yeah. Awesome.
Syrus: A lot of early, Organizing unfortunately happened in very inaccessible spaces. So I can
Going up this, a beautiful, amazing trans run bar in Toronto called the Red Spot, which, was amazing. Like it was just truly a community treasure.
Absolutely amazing. Trans women of color ran it. But it was up, maybe 50 stairs, super steep stairs. And of course it was when you could still smoke in the club. It was so smoky, like nobody could breathe. Anyone who had asthma couldn't come, anybody who needed a mobility device couldn't come and, stuff like that.
[00:42:00] It just made it hard to connect. That's why I liked being involved with the Center for Women and Trans People at the time, because it was like a free, accessible space that people could go to. And it didn't have a lot of resources, didn't have a kitchen, so it was like. We were washing dishes in the bathroom,
Jackal: Don't tell me that. Don't tell me that. La. I can't hear that. I can't hear, I can't hear that. Yeah.
Syrus: early late nineties collective vibe,
Jackal: yeah. I get it.
Syrus: A little rougher on the edges. And, but I love that it was free and it was accessible and it was somewhere to gather. And that's where a lot of trans folks did their organizing.
There was folks who were organizing around trans sex workers who, who met on Saturdays in the morning there, there was like all of this kind of stuff. So a lot of the stuff that I was. organizing in, I really tried to make sure we're rooted in what eventually became known as disability justice and, rooted in, black affirming space and rooted in space where BIPOCs would be centered.
And, so we did a lot of arts based programming. We did a lot of creative activisms that really put those voices to the front. And I feel really thankful to have gotten to be involved in that
Jackal: You, yeah,
Syrus: me.[00:43:00]
Jackal: amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much for all the work you've done. Like that is phenomenal. I came out of a very political anarchist community in Toronto, actually. And just appreciate everything that you have just. told us about the activism that you've done for yourself and for other people.
You also mentioned that somebody called you at work and said, Hey, trans guy gender deviant guy what's up? And I had that happen to me. And I'll tell you, because somebody else had answered the phone and then passed it to me at work. I flipped out. I was like, how dare you call me at work and say these things.
That might be extremely private and potentially dangerous, like this is confidential information, like how dare you call me here. I was pissed. Our show is called Stealth, and we'd like to ask, what does stealth mean to you, and have you ever lived a [00:44:00] stealth or low disclosing, non disclosing lifestyle?
Syrus: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, and I just want to say in what other situation would they ever call your work number? That was intentional. It's a very intentional medical transphobia, like an intentional jab, because they can, right? So just to say that.
Kai: And that fear you highlighted Syrus, that fear of being blocked from care moving forward because of the power that they held. That hits hard.
Syrus: Yeah, it's, it was a really intense and I think, we got to remember, of course, for trans young folks under 18, under 19 this is still the reality.
Jackal: Yeah.
Syrus: grilled over the coals just to, I don't know if that's a good expression actually, but then they still get grilled, just to be able to prove that they know what's going on in their own bodies. But yeah, stealth is, when I first Came out and first started on hormones and I, I will say that I, I got connected with the Sherbert and I got on hormones, blah, blah, blah, but I was taking street hormones before I got in when it sounds so dramatic. But that was just what we called it when [00:45:00] someone had access and they shared their prescription, right? So I was, sharing a prescription with someone who had gotten hooked up with the one doctor who made the prescriptions. And it wasn't a long term solution, so it meant that I didn't always get my dose every week, but I did my best. They also used to give us a lot more. There was a much higher dose. But anyways, when I was doing T that first time I grew a beard very quickly. And my beard fell out when I stopped taking testosterone to get pregnant, which was, I didn't know was going to happen because they make you sign all these things that are like, just so and things were supposed to be irreversible.
But anyways, for me that my beard hair mostly fell out, but at the time I had a pretty thick beard. And so there was lots of times where I was in a cab or I was at a bar and nobody Really questioned it. They just assumed that I was he, him, and that's what my pronouns were anyways. And it was, so I was, yeah, absolutely in a stealth mode. And it was very interesting to me to experience the way that I was treated which was very different [00:46:00] than the way that I had been previously treated. And so suddenly I was, everybody's like buddy or like bro, dude. And did you want to be your man? Like all that kind of they just were like extra friendly or like we're in this together, which hadn't been my experience before necessarily.
So I found it fascinating. So yeah, that was definitely a part of my early transition, but it was also the community that I came out in. There were, I mentioned some of the early internet activism. One of the things that was also out there were these really prescriptive guides. transition FTM cut your hair short, wear a number two inch brown belt, like literally they literally prescribe,
Kai: Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Khakis. I get a rash just thinking about it. How to pass. PassingTips.
Jackal: Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah.
Syrus: Yeah Passing tips. Pattern shirts for your top. So that it just got, it was really. Really prescriptive. And of course this is a podcast, so you can't see what I look like, but I dress [00:47:00] very flamboyantly. And at the time I was like, Ooh, how's this going to work?
But I did try, like I tried that.
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: To do. So I'll do this, so there was that early period where stealth was something that was yeah, part of my experience and I would say it's low disclosure because for the people in my life who I worked with and who I was around, they all knew that I was trans. But it was in public with strangers, most people didn't know. And that was really interesting especially after I had top surgery. But when I went off of hormones to get pregnant, it ended up. I had infertility and some problems. So with fertility I took about three years to get pregnant.
So that was three years being off hormones. And
Beard mostly fell out. I had a little bit of hair, but enough that could, just be like a cis m an who happens to have, chin hair. So it was like, I was heartbroken, but there wasn't really much I could do about it because I really did want to make a baby. So that access to self disappeared. But. I also had around the same time decided that I was going to wear what I wanted to [00:48:00] wear and so that meant that I started accessing femme a lot more and I started playing with gender a lot more and playing with clothes a lot more and fashion and I'm an artist anyway so it just became really fun to play and Yeah.
So then that, that wasn't really a big part of maybe the last 10 years, but then my daughter, I wasn't sure if I was going to have another, which is like the classic stories, I'm going to have more than one. And I wasn't sure. So I stayed off testosterone for a little while.
And then when she was maybe seven or eight, I was like, okay, I think we're done. and I went back on hormones and I was, Oh, it was so wonderful because by that point I had tried the patch. But I kept having this terrible skin reaction to the patch,
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: I couldn't do the patch. I went back on injections, and I hated doing injections.
I was doing some cutaneous to my stomach, and I just didn't like it. I had done it for years, and I was just over doing it. And I had this lovely trans guy nurse, And I was at my clinic, because the clinic has lots of trans people working there. And he was like, you can take a needle break anytime you want. We can get it [00:49:00] at a compounding pharmacy in a cream, in a lotion. As a Black person, I, love to hear that there's a lotion, right? We love lotion. And I, just put it on, and it's great. So my beard grew back, and, my voice was low, didn't change, but it's gotten a bit lower.
And,
The things that I wanted from going back on testosterone have happened. So I feel really thankful. And yeah, now, depending on how I dress. It's something that I can access again in public depending on, but I dress like so ridiculous. Most people don't know, I would, most people don't gender me as a woman, but they definitely gender me as they them.
They're like, this is a they them, because I just, and even my mom, who's as I say very supportive now. She said to me the other day, she was like trying to be like. A supportive ally and like good person. She's Sy, I just wanted to check in about your pronouns because,
Kai: Oh my god.
Syrus: the
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: like I just, and you just play with it.
I just wonder would you like me to call you they them? Does that feel better? And then I like gave her a little bit of schooling about what does a he him look like to you? And why do you think that's what he
So she was like, Oh, true. So yeah. I still feel very confident [00:50:00] and very certain of my pronouns being he and him, but I play with gender and I play with clothes and I play with a lot of things as part of just how I want to live my life.
It just feels very authentic to me. It comes in and out. Stealth comes in and out of my life. It's certainly something I don't take for granted. The safety that it grants in places like bathrooms, the safety that it can sometimes grant in, in tense situations where ID is in question and things like that. But also at this point, there's a safety for me, a little bit of safety, even though we're in these very dangerous times. Let's not, dance around. That is, these are very dangerous times to be a trans person, but having been out for 24 years at this point, like there's a little bit of an, I don't give a fuck that I have in my life.
And so I have just said directly to a border guard or to, whoever, is this because I'm a trans person? And then they're like, Oh no. They got a dance back, but like, I don't give a fuck
Kai: Wow.
Syrus: I want to call you on it every single time,
Kai: Wow.
Syrus: And if you're questioning this, you need to know that there's like this many trans [00:51:00] people in the world. I'm like, what, what's your life? Yeah I definitely feel confident at this point that, why wouldn't I be?
Kai: I just think you sound so brave to push back on all the different, repressive parts of the system. Even within our own community that how we're supposed to prescribe a certain way of presentation, a certain way to be masculine, a certain way to be a trans man, all those things, Syrus, just how bold that makes you and how progressive you are.
And back then having a baby and talks about fertility, we're. Not a very publicly discussed thing. And I remember we had Matt Rice on the show and Matt was one of the first trans men that I knew that stopped testosterone, to have a baby and, just the backlash within our community and how I had to do some mental accounting about that.
Like what does it mean to want to do that? And. How do I question my own self, my own thoughts about that of how we should live and be. So I [00:52:00] really appreciate that. And I can't imagine, off testosterone for such a long time, you constantly pushed for your own care and your, on your terms. you're having a baby, you go off to you have, you want to chest feed, like you're saying this out loud to medical folks. It's amazing.
Syrus: One of the things that they said when I first came out and was trying to access testosterone was, trans people can never have children. And I was like, why? And they were like, oh and they didn't really have a good answer. And,
Jackal: Cause I said so.
Syrus: Yeah because I said so. There was some of us who were starting to ask questions and we came together to create what ended up becoming Trans Fathers To Be, which was the first pregnancy course for trans men in North America. And it was run in Tkaronto, and it was run by Robin Fern, who is a trans guy who's since passed away, who is midwife, and the labor and delivery nurse.
And we, figured out all the questions that we had, how long do you have to be off with testosterone before you can try to get [00:53:00] pregnant? What about chest feeding? And what, all the, what about, how do we do parenting with the transphobic world? And we found answers. We talked to surgeons, we talked to doctors, we did all this research over two years, and then started offering this course. And then we took the course because we wanted to know all the answers and it was amazing like it was just so amazing to be creating something that meant that other people got to dream into building their families to if that's what they wanted. I wrote a an article. A chapter called Going Boldly, where a few trans men have gone before. Or time at the baby making clinic, I can't remember what it was called. It was for a book called Who's Your Daddy?, which was all about queer parenting. And it talked about going to the fertility clinic and, our application was flagged because why would two men be in need of insemination. And then the, the nurse referred us, did some advocacy before we got there. And, mostly our experience was pretty good there. But when we had our daughter at the hospital, they were [00:54:00] nervous. Our midwife had given them a really big schooling about trans justice while I was laboring.
She had gone out and talked to everybody on the ward. And so when I had my daughter, I asked, how do I feed her? How do I feed her? I want to feed her from my body and nobody would help me feed her. And it took three days. My twin came up and she had nursed two children. So she helped me to hand express, which is a really hard way to express if anybody has ever. For the body, she taught me how to hand express because we couldn't get a pump. We couldn't get access to anything. This is Absolutely not the protocol in a hospital, immediately they ask you, do you want to so I ended up walking up and down the hallway one time with my baby in the bassinet, asking anyone, can you help me feed my baby?
Can you help me feed my baby? I finally found someone who's Oh my God, no one's showed you how to feed your baby. And it turned out that there was a lactation circle in the room immediately next door to the one I was staying at.
Jackal: Wow.
Syrus: every morning, but they hadn't told me because they thought it would be transphobic for them to suggest that I wanted to feed my baby or something like that. [00:55:00] Like they were trying to like not be transphobic and then as a result became transphobic. It was just so bananas. So by the time I tried to feed her she had already learned that she preferred the bottle.
So I ended up pumping. So I pumped for it. For eight months. But anyways, it was really, quite there's transphobia all along the way, but we just kept going because we knew it's not a, a gendered experience to want to create a baby. That's just a human experience to want to create a baby.
And I think that everybody should have the right to do that. I can remember when we were trying to make our daughter I had done an insemination that ultimately ended up being not successful, but I had gone to the trans bar in Toronto. There was a trans bar and there was a DJ and a performance night and I was excited.
So I had gone to the bar and I had seen a friend, a trans guy, and I was like, Oh, how's it going? How's your summer? And we were just chit chatting. And then I said, Oh yeah, I actually just did an insemination and I'm really hopeful that I'm going to get pregnant and I'm really excited. And he just, Turned, he looked a funny look on his face,
Didn't say anything, turned his [00:56:00] body and just walked away. And he's never spoken to me again,
Kai: Oh,
Syrus: And it
Jackal: Yeah.
Syrus: he just couldn't process it in that moment.
Kai: yeah.
Syrus: I don't know if it was like a betrayal. I don't know what it was. I can't presume to project that I would know what it was
Kai: Yeah.
Jackal: It's a good question for our community, actually. What is it that bugs us about one of us choosing to have a baby? Like, why is that? What's wrong? What's that about?
Syrus: I'm so curious to, yeah, because I just find it so interesting. So yeah, it felt like a really radical thing that shouldn't have been radical,
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: just such a human experience. Like I have an identical twin.
She also decided that she wanted to become a parent. That's not radical. Why was it radical that I decided that I wanted to become a parent? It's just a very, Not that you have to become a parent. Lots of people don't,
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: you want to, that shouldn't be like such a radical thing. So yeah, I, but I feel very thankful.
And then, because of this course, we knew a lot of other trans parents, we met a lot of other [00:57:00] trans parents. And then, of course, now there are so many trans parents and that feels really exciting, that there's so much more. I ended up writing an addendum to the chapter that I wrote in Who's Your Daddy?
I wrote for you. Chini Rayapara's book about black birthing I wrote an addendum called Confessions of a Black Trans Dad, where I reflected on what happened after Amelie was born. And it turns out that, most of the things that we experienced and encountered had a lot more to do with racial injustice than it had to do with transphobia.
Kai: Yeah.
Syrus: it ended up being a non issue. We had a baby
Jackal: Wow.
Syrus: great. But anyways, I still feel very thankful for that course.
Kai: Thank you. Thank you. So many things, Syrus, thinking about being in a hospital in a I guess I would call it OBGYN ward where they have babies, come into this world and, I just remember having hysterectomy and they didn't know where to put me, so they threw me in my own room, which was great, but it was just very different and not to the degree that you're discussing and I'm so glad that you just found people and one of the things I'm [00:58:00] encouraged about right now is the WPATH standards of care include fertility.
Discussions with folks take, thoughts about that organization aside, it's just, I think it's important that they're, the medical folks are talking to people who are going to use HRT or puberty blockers that, this, there's to have discussions about fertility and informed consent and hopefully they do a good job.
Syrus: For that.
Kai: so I think you were setting the stage for that and I just want to, I just want to thank you for that because it's so important. So let's talk about now, like currently in your area, You have a lot going on. Talk to us a little bit about your life and the trans community, and what's your life like now and you don't give a few fucks right now because you've been in it so long, but talk to us a little bit about what you're doing now.
Syrus: Yeah, I'm an artist which is really one of the joys of my life. I'm an artist and I make, large scale drawings and paintings and theater and performance and installation. I'm working on a project right now [00:59:00] with my mother, actually, called Flowers While We're Living, which is portraits of trans people from across the country with their favorite flower. And we're making this film where we're talking to them about their favorite flower and memories they have with it and just trans joy
Trans futures. And
Kai: Silence.
Syrus: and Raven Davis and all of these folks from across the country. So feeling really thankful about that. I'm a parent, as I mentioned my daughter is now almost 13, and, I get to co parent with this amazing trans dad other trans dad, and our daughter is just so amazing. She's just really rad. So very thankful. I'm a scholar and an academic, so I'm an assistant professor at the School of the Arts at McMaster University, and I teach performance and [01:00:00] theatre and integrated arts, and I'm not the only trans person in the department.
There's another trans person, and this feels like quite a time to be alive, I am the only Black person, but That's a conversation maybe for another day. These institutions still need to be very diversified. But yeah, I feel really thankful to to be able to teach and to work with a lot of trans students and to get to work on a bunch of projects that are rooted in trans justice and making work that.
Just offers us a different set of possibilities. And I'm an activist. I've been an activist steady through this whole time. I started doing organizing in 96 and have been involved in a lot of different things, including on the forefront of doing work around abolition in the 90s and prisoners justice work and started, Prisoner's Justice Action Committee, which created the first Prisoner's Justice Film Festival in North America, and we ran for several years in Tkaronto and also in London, and I helped to co found Black Lives Matter Canada, and we do organizing around Black justice and queer justice rooted in [01:01:00] disability justice, because a lot of the folks who are being killed by the cops are mad folks trans folks, queer folks. We painted a big 7200 square foot neon pink queer mural that said defund the police in front of police headquarters in 2020 during the uprisings and have just done a lot of work to try to support grassroots organizing around the country and just making sure that black folks have what they need to survive and thrive. One of the things that we've done is to create the Wild Seed Center for Art and Activism, which is this 10, 000 square foot space. On Cecil Street in Toronto for Black people, by Black people with the gallery space and art studio and industrial kitchen and meeting space so that people can meet for free. They can practice their craft and their art for free. They can show their work. They can have somewhere to make the banner for the next rally. They can find community together. And it's actually on the same street. That Rupert Raj ran the first trans group in Toronto. The first trans group is as far as I know in Ontario, [01:02:00] maybe even in Canada,
on Cecil street, just a couple of doors down.
So
Jackal: Wow.
Syrus: feels like a very auspicious location. It's also very close to where Marcus Garvey had his office when he was in Toronto and it's across the street from the big labor union, steelworkers, 30 years. So we're really happy to have the space that will be, For generations forward for black communities to be able to be supported. To be able to thrive. Getting to do all of these things is really been yeah, I just have been able to create a life where I'm living that dream that 14 year old on the phone was, just, daring to dream was possible. I get to be this trans guy living on my own terms.
I get to be the parent that I knew that I wanted to be. And I get to fight for greater justice for more people. So I feel very thankful. So that's what I'm up to. I write a lot of books. And so one of the books that I'm writing right now is. a memoir looking at 25 years of activism and organizing and looking at trans justice and [01:03:00] what's happened here in, in Tkaronto. And it's been really fun to write and really intense to reflect on also because so much has happened. But it's been amazing just to think about all of these great folks that I've gotten to work with and how many amazing activists that I've had the chance to work with. So feeling very thankful for my community and just really a lot of gratitude for all of the trans folks who, you Made it possible.
They were possibility models for me to imagine a life worth living a life where I wanted to stick around on this planet to get to see what turned out, and I'm so glad I stayed and I'm so glad I'm here. And, for trans folks, our lives aren't guaranteed. We don't all get to live long enough to become elders and
I'm going to be 50 soon
Jackal: That's so true. Wow.
Syrus: I never thought that it was going to be possible to live to 30. I feel very thankful.
Kai: yeah, along those lines, if I may, I, I'm thinking about, you had a baby trans folks having babies. You're also a man of color who had a baby trans man of color. And. know there's so many disparities and racism in the health [01:04:00] field, in the health community, and there's a high mortality rate around black folks who have babies, just like such a, an important thing that needs to change.
And also as a trans person you worked with HIV, prevention and things like that and there's so many things specific to our communities. And if you're open to it, would you mind just sharing a little bit about HIV, it impacts our communities.
And I think that the prevention work is starting to, and continuing to adapt. So it includes us, that your conversation about representation mattering . I just would love to hear your thoughts about this.
Syrus: Yeah, when we did primed, we also wrote a report called getting primed, which was for service providers and that research continues through trans pulse and through Aiden chimes research and, it really was important to. reflect on the fact that Lou Sullivan's statement that I'm, I'm not treated like a gay man, but I'm going to die like a gay man was still [01:05:00] unfortunately very true in 2014 and 2016 and 2020 and 2024. So What we found in our data collection and in our research was that trans men who had sex with men were often in very high risk categories if we want to use that language, which we can trouble that language as well. Where, There was a lot of factors that would, potentially result in zero conversion and what does it mean, to still be creating the conditions where trans people don't have access to life.
And part of that is, the way that the medical system is set up and the way that the ASOs think, who they think of as their clients who they think of as the trans people who come there and maybe their attentions are given to different parts of the community or who knows what. Who knows what, certainly in the research that I was doing in 2004, a lot of the ASOs hadn't thought of trans people at all.
They were really at the beginning of trying to grapple with the fact that, keeping in mind trans people have existed since the beginning of human history, including at the beginning of these ASOs. But, they were just grappling with the fact that we were there, and that we also needed services. There's a [01:06:00] lot of work that needs to be done to to make sure that. Trans people have access to the support and resources that they need. But but yeah, I was, thinking about in 2024 there's still a lot of factors that are making social environment conditions really dangerous for trans folks.
And that has a lot to do with transphobia within gay men's communities and particular requirements or beliefs that there's going to be a requirement that trans people always have to be in the receptive role that trans people have to say yes to no barrier protection, because that's the only way that they're going to get to access this, queer sex or this queer space, or, having to participate in, in, in activities that maybe aren't what they are really wanting to participate in just to be able to be seen as a gay man.
So
Kai: Yep.
Syrus: those, unless those factors change, I don't quite. So a lot of the work that I was doing in the early 2000s was around trying to shift things in gay men's communities. And so we had a lot of [01:07:00] queer, gay by queer trans men and the men who dig them parties. We had one called Stroke that would be in these gay men's spaces and they'd be like open spaces for people to meet and cruise.
And when we had them at Goodhandies, there was actual spaces where people could actually hook up.
Still seeing a lot of folks feeling pressured to
Some of their boundaries, and I think that's something that needs to change and to shift.
And I'm also seeing a lot more out Couples so it's what we were saying earlier about visibility mattering and seeing yourself reflected and I'm happy for a lot of the great artworks and campaigns and initiatives that a lot of trans guys and queer trans folks have been creating. To really visibilize our presence and our stories and, and the folks who are still working on primed and the folks who are still doing that work who are just, reminding us that we exist and we're here and that we also deserve support and resources and we deserve to know how to protect our bodies to keep our, ourselves safer.
Jackal: Thank you so much. I love listening to you talk I love the way you [01:08:00] talk. I love that you push back on language, even like how you say things. And I totally agree as a. gay trans man myself that there are so many stereotypes out there still that I will always be the bottom or receptor which is just totally not true.
I don't mind having reciprocal sex, but I love to top. And that is just, people are like, Oh, Really? How? And it's if you can have a dildo sex with your cisgender male partner, why can't you have dildo sex with me? That's just, something obvious, but not to everybody.
It's still a really phallocentric society that we live in, and gay men are in many ways phallocentric. And so There's a lot of learning still to be done, so I appreciate all of what you just said.
Syrus: 100%. I agree with everything you
Jackal: Yeah we're [01:09:00] coming to the end of this part, and as eloquent as you are, I would, wanted to ask what would you like to say to newer trans and non binary folk?
Syrus: I guess I would say welcome, congratulations, and we love you.
Jackal: yeah.
Syrus: we're so happy that you've shared yourself with us, and have come into this community. And yeah, we can't wait to sit together and be kin together. Being trans has It's been the greatest joy of my life. I'm so thankful every single day that I get to wake up and be a trans person. The trans community that I have in my life, am ride or die. I would literally do anything for them. And I will always show up and I will show up for you too, even though we've never met until now. And I would want you to know that.
Kai: There's so much kindness in our community.
Jackal: Yeah, and
Kai: I just feel that for me so much, Syrus
Jackal: Those were beautiful [01:10:00] words. Everybody's typically they have like words of like wisdom words of advice, and that might be the first time that I heard anybody's the first thing out of their mouth was welcome.
Syrus: We're happy you're here.
Jackal: Yeah. Awesome.
So how do you think we can be more supportive of our own trans masculine community? You've said so much about how you've suffered, but both for our elders in our community, both for the incoming, both for those who, like me, are completely invisible, like how, how can we be more supportive of our trans masculine and non binary brothers?
Syrus: Yeah, I think the first thing we can do is to remember that we're all in the room, not just some of us, so just really making space for those folks who have maybe been a bit more underrecognized in trans masc spaces or maybe, but, we used to use the word marginalized, but I think we've been there and [01:11:00] we were actually there.
We just weren't recognized or seen. We were invisiblized. So really, making space for all of us, but I think. One of the things that we get to have and we get to be In the spirit of Jackie Shane and in the spirit of Marsha P. Johnson, who would rather spend money on flowers to gift to you than, whatever, we have a way of being that is rooted in love. Raven Wings calls it radical love. She says our love is radical, it's abolitionist, that it's rooted in trans love.
And so we can show up for each other better than we have been. We can show up for each other in new ways.
Jackal: Yeah.
Syrus: that all votes rise, not just some of them, we can literally water each other's seeds, we can show up better and a lot of us, may it be. Are going to get older and continue to get older, and we're going to need more care. And so we can also start planning now how we're going to do that. can work and [01:12:00] fight with every breath we have for our young kin who are, under the grapples of not only transphobia, but ageism that suggests that somehow they don't know something at 17, but do know something at 18, as if that makes any sense, that we can fight for their justice, that we can make sure that they have what they need so that they can live to 20.
That they can live to 30, that they can live to 70, right? We can do this together. And that we as trans people can start to build the kinds of futures now that we want to be living in. We can prefigure, so I'm seeing, trans community housing and I'm seeing organizations and collectives led by trans people, creating new ways of being, I'm seeing glitz. And I enjoy a show in New York and some of the incredible work to create housing and space for trans people that carries on the work of Transie House, that carries on the work of our elders. We can continue to show up in new ways for each other. So I feel like what trans masc and non binary brothers that [01:13:00] need in this moment is love and kinship and care. the possibility that they're going to have a future because then anything else becomes possible. So how do we create
Jackal: So, true.
Syrus: the conditions where we can all imagine a world where we survive?
Jackal: So beautiful. Thank you so much. What do you think we should have asked that we didn't famous last words of wisdom, anything?
Syrus: That's a good question. You asked a lot of great questions. I love a question that said in the future,
Jackal: Okay.
Syrus: going to be like for trans people in 2070? I'm so curious,
Jackal: Okay. So for you personally, what do you imagine your life to be in? Let's say 20 years from now, because you're fairly young. So at 70, and what do you imagine, the world to be like for trans people in general in 20 years? so much. Yay.
Syrus: I would absolutely say that at 70, by that point, we will [01:14:00] have done enough work to dismantle capitalism, to get rid of billionaires,
Jackal: Oh my god.
Syrus: And to therefore be able to resolve a lot of the climate issues. So we're going to be living in communities on the land beautiful communal living spaces where we have our own private space, because I'm an introvert, and we have our own individual space, but we also have We'll have access to community when we need it. You need someone to sit up with you while you sew, someone's going to be in the communal living room tonight at eight, or whatever. We're going to have access to that. We're going to be in walkable. Distance from our kin, we're gonna be able to tap into each other a lot more regularly.
And we're gonna be doing it this way because we're going to be part of shaping this world. We're not going to be under recognized and on the margins, but rather we're gonna be in the center because we're gonna have been part of what was creating the transformation in this world.
So we're gonna be so much freer. And perhaps. More people will [01:15:00] be trans because in reality, probably a lot more people are outside of this simple, tiny binary of just men or just women.
Jackal: It's true.
Syrus: true for very few. That's true for some people and we celebrate them, right? We will celebrate them in the future.
And then for all of the people who that's not true for, all of the as Ayaan Americal, who's a trans, A grandmother who passed away a couple of years ago, she talked about gender as a circle and she said, how many points are in a circle? It's infinite. So in the infinite possibilities of gender, so many more people will be freer to express how they were, how they are.
And they're going to get to do that with their families and with their communities, supporting them and loving them.
Jackal: Sweet. And I know you have a ton of things to promote so just give yourself a shout out here and anything that you want to promote for yourself, books, websites, Instagram, anything please.
Syrus: Amazing. I do love Instagram. I use Instagram a lot at Syrus Marcus. I to make a lot of kind of fun, but also political posts about the social [01:16:00] world and artwork. And I do a lot of fun things with that. I have a book coming out, as I mentioned, this memoir, 25 years of activism, 25 years on the front lines. And that's coming out on press and really. Excited and looking forward to that. And I have book coming out called Irresistible Revolutions, which is looking at resistance, social change, and world building trans black disabled world building through portraiture. And that's coming out in two years.
Jackal: Wow. Thank you so much. And thank you for all you're doing. I just want to say the Instagram is at Syrus Marcus S Y R U S M A R C U S. Okay. So follow Syrus on Instagram and look for those books. If you don't already have them and support our guests here. Thank you so much, Syrus, for joining us today.
Syrus: Thank you.
Kai: Thank you
Well, Jackal, how did you think our interview [01:17:00] with Syrus went this morning?
Jackal: I think it was beautiful. I love the way he talked about things. I love the language that he used. I think you have a new crush here. Just my feeling.
Kai: He's such a love, I just think one of the things that I feel when I talked to him, I feel that kindness that he's describing and I feel hopeful about a future and us continuing to grow as we age and the world shifts around us in a way that's affirming for us. I really do want to live in that world. And that is such a hard thing to remember when there's so much negativity and fear mongering.
And it really is a dangerous time for so many people for so many reasons. And he articulated that better than I ever could.
Jackal: And still held on to his positivity.
Kai: yeah.
Jackal: Still held on to his beauty which is hard for me, when I get into my, anti government, going to hell in a handbasket kind of [01:18:00] mentality, I am the curmudgeon and get off my lawn guy, and he's still like, welcome to the community, everybody.
We're going forward. I'm like, what the fuck? How do you do that?
Kai: Right. Yeah. He's not sugar coating anything. There's this full awareness
of, but, still managing to plow forward and evolve. And I think that's the one thing that I feel hopeful about the newer folks that are coming up, that there's this flexibility, like Syrus is talking about it. His mother talking to him about pronouns because the way he's expressing his gender and it was so sweet story and it's like, no mom, I'm still very from the he him, but it can look different ways. Check yourself and our community. Especially I'm speaking broadly, like so many of the older transition guys who are maybe a little bit less involved with community or less up on the latest, it can be so hard to really flex and not feel stuck in the binary. And I think we need to just welcome [01:19:00] everyone
Jackal: and I've said this before, there's so many ways to be cisgendered male, you can wear flowered shirts. If you're in Hawaii, you're expected to wear flowered shirts, like whatever you can be a big, big guy, Hawaiian guy, and you're wearing pink, it's normal.
But for us, for some reason, it's like, Oh no, don't do that because you'll look like a girl. It's like, what the fuck? I can wear whatever color I want.
Like I don't like pink always, but I have this nice work shirt that people love on me that it's white and pink striped. And people love it on me.
And I was like, it's going to make me too red. I wasn't like, it's pink, but, I'm a white guy and, I thought it would make me look too reddish. Right. And but people love it on me. And so I wear it, to work and why can't I wear flowers?
Kai: Yeah, I think Syrus was wearing a crown today.
Jackal: Oh my god, he was, I was going to mention it, so cute.
Kai: just love that, I just, I think that's beautiful. And, his comments [01:20:00] about, making space for everyone and just that freeness that he's talking about, it just sounds so much like a world, I would want to live in than feeling so restricted. When I catch myself, doing that thinking along lines that are making me feel stuck, it's such a hard place to be.
Jackal: Yeah, what, makes you feel stuck? Is there one thing in our community that makes you feel stuck? Or do you feel sticky sometimes?
Kai: I think, change takes time. And if you think about the WPATH standards of care, that they are evolving over time, but it's within huge systems and it's an international organization that is, Having to get along and come up with these new guidelines or adapt the guidelines.
And, just in our lifetime, it has shifted so much. They started in our lifetime, but they have evolved since we transitioned. And I think, just the fact that they're including fertility is a [01:21:00] result of what Syrus was describing, That importance of us being part of those panels, part of the standards of care group, I don't think many of us trans folks in that decision making for WPATH back in the day, and so now we have a lot more representation. It's coming along. One of the things that he was talking about that just really got me is the access to care and how the fear of it going away, our protections being removed. Some of us are midway through surgeries or procedures or on hormones that are saving our lives because it helps us. It helps us so much. And I know I've heard stories now, when Trump was elected the first time, instead of going to the surgeon that they would prefer, there was a wait list. And so they went to somebody who wasn't really practiced at it, whose results weren't that great. And then, the outcomes weren't precisely how they wanted. There's so many things that gets [01:22:00] rushed or stuck. We feel like we don't have options. And one of the things Syrus provides is a lot of thought about what the options are.
And I just love that about him.
Jackal: Yeah, it reminds me of Reg, one of our interviews in Season 1 when he said if there's no options out there, I create my own. Like, if there was no support group, he made a support group. Syrus has a lot of that energy. If there's no HIV, group for trans men who are gay, then he went out and created it with community.
He's really engaged in community, which I also really appreciated. It's funny, the getting stuck piece, because I'm, really curious. And I know I've gone through my own stuff around it too. with trans male pregnancy, for example, the pronouns I remember the first time I saw a pamphlet, With two men kissing on it. And I got scared. Like I got scared. It felt weird to see it on paper. It was this pamphlet [01:23:00] that we were going to pass out at a gay pride event in Toronto. I was in Toronto at the time. I can't remember what it was about, but it was like, two women kissing, two men kissing, a man and a woman kissing, it was everybody.
So everybody was included. Trans people weren't so recognizable back then. So trans wasn't exactly on there, but I felt scared. I can tell you that now looking in hindsight, that when I saw that, I would say a combination between homophobia and being afraid. The women didn't trigger that in me, and maybe that's because there's a lot of two women kissing or sexy pornography things out there. But the men I could, I didn't have a reference point for
Kai: What was, scary about it? If you remember,
Jackal: I don't know, I think I can only recognize it as scary in hindsight. But I think, like you said, like new things. Change takes time and new things are often scary, right? Like new, like, Oh, that's new. Like, I don't [01:24:00] want, I don't want this new technology.
I don't want this new identity. I don't want this new thing, like coming into existence. And we just really need to be flexible. Humanity, society needs to be flexible in general. I think it was Darwin who said, if we don't evolve, we die. So the new things that are coming at us is evolution and we need to adapt or we will die, Syrus helped me remember that and remember that positivity of evolution in myself as well as around me.
Kai: Yeah. And he described a lot of how movements work and how you asked about, what could we have done? And he said, we've always been here and make space for the folks who, have been invisiblized. And, he talked about disability advocacy and accessibility, the importance of that and how that's not always front of mind and the important work that's being done around that he uses the word mad a lot.
So I'm just assuming that he was talking about mental [01:25:00] health. And I'm someone who works within a system. I work for an AIDS. Aid service organization, ASO. I am a therapist. I work within the confines of the mental health facility using the diagnostics, just, the DSM I work within what insurance company I'm like very structured, hemmed in. I could have asked him so much about that. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
Jackal: I worked in Vancouver in my 20s, and it was called I'm Not Crazy I'm Mad, and it was about lesbian writers who had been incarcerated for mental health stuff and it was really powerful, that reminded me of that as well.
Also, the pushback on not going to the gender clinic because it was under the addiction and mental health auspice. And that is implicit bias right there, right? Like, transgender has to be included in the substance and mental health section. Why? Because it's [01:26:00] implicitly stated within that, that you are mentally ill, right?
And, the DMS or the DM5 or whatever it's called, all of those things have conditioned us, conditioned society to believe that we are mentally ill because we are transgender. And that's where my fear came from with the two guys kissing. I don't know if there's some connection there I'd have to dig deeper to figure out all of the entanglement there.
But the way we get taught what gay means, the way we get taught what trans means, it's so intertwined with all these other ideologies of mental health and mental illness,
Kai: Right. Yeah. We were alive when the DSM homosexuality was considered a mental illness. And I think, that pathology you're describing. There are shifts and I think in the next DSM that's going to come out, it's going to be instead of gender dysphoria, it's going to [01:27:00] be called gender incongruence. And that's an interesting choice and then there's all sorts of questions about well if it's not a diagnosable condition will it be covered By insurance. Right. Right.
Jackal: It's a double edged sword, right? Yeah,
Kai: So the doctors, there's conversations about that happening, like the doctors who provide hormone replacement therapy who do care for us, they're saying, well, we have to work within the system and still label it to get chest surgery covered, they were called like gynomastica if we had on our gender identity in the insurance company.
So there's lots of workarounds. And I think, one last thing that about the way movements work and his discussion reminded me of, in the gay movement, the gay rights movement, there's a lot of clean cut, khaki wearing, like all American quote unquote, which meant white and clean cut, straight passing, gays. Who weren't pushing the margins. And then [01:28:00] those were the folks that like, you're the good gay and you're the one that can speak for us and get access, within our own communities. We've had a lot of representation of mostly white trans men, and I think, making room for other voices. Folks of color have always been in our community and part of our community and they're more present in our community.
And I want that to continue, and I'm so glad he was here today
Jackal: Me too.
Kai: I'm learning bunches. I'm going to be thinking about this.
Jackal: Yeah. Great. Great interview today. Thank you so
Kai: nice job today.
Jackal: Great.
Kai: Hey, Kai here. Jackal and I are excited to offer a new members section on our webpage. As a member, you'll get ad free episodes with bonus material like transmasculine history. Here's a teaser. Let's get started with famed African American gospel singer Wilmer Broadnax, the frontman for his own quartet called Little Axe and the Golden Echoes.
I should here mention that Little Axe was his nickname. He was a small guy, especially compared to his brother William, who went by the nickname Big Axe. Go to our [01:29:00] website and sign up to become a member today.
Jackal: Now it's time for Transponder.
Today's Transponder Trans Joy segment is a shout out to Dr. Shawndeez Jadalizadeh and his TransJoy workshop series. Congratulations on your fall 2024 dates getting sold out. Which were held via zoom From October 20th to November 24th.
If you're interested in participating in Shawndeez 2025 trans joy workshop series, please send him a direct message via his Instagram page at Dr. Shawndeez. That's at D R S H A W N D E E Z.
Dr. Sean Dees. [01:30:00] Congratulations.
If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact our Instagram page at Transmasculine Podcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight Expertise and heartfelt stories.
We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you.
Kai: Good job today,
Jackal: Jackal. Good job to you, Kai.
Kai: Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before. the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience.
We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority.
Jackal: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for [01:31:00] supporting your kids.
We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community.
Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up.
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