Max

Max is a 45-year-old queer man, dad and avid fossil hunter, who began transitioning in 1999. He has lived all over, but his longest stint thus far has been in Philadelphia, where he works as a nurse practitioner in an outpatient infectious diseases practice and specializes in caring for people living with HIV. He is passionate about too many things, some of which include harm reduction, queer history, rocks, poetry and boats.

S5E5 Max

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back to Stealth A Trans Masculine Podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000.

We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts, that one, for our generation we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence, and that due to that, Our stories are very often overlooked.

Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community. We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us [00:01:00] has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways.

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates. We push for human rights and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition.

Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms. including YouTube. These are trying times and we want to acknowledge that here in the States and throughout the world there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities.

Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website transmasculinepodcast. com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living [00:02:00] community. We are healthy.

We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved and we welcome you to our stories. We want to give a content warning for this episode. There is talk about suicide and mental health issues.

Kai: Remember you can go to our. website, transmasculinepodcast. com for resources for crisis lines, including the Trevor Project, Trans Lifeline, and Suicide Prevention Lifeline, transmasculinepodcast.

com.

Shawn: Hey, this is Sean Aaron, he, him, his. And I'm here to tell you about them boys podcast. I'm the host of them boys podcast. And as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color. As we share our transition stories, the podcast not only amplifies the voices of trans men of color, but it raises awareness and conversations around our lived experiences.

You can [00:03:00] listen to the podcast by going to them boys. org forward slash podcast. That's D E M B O I S dot org forward slash podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next episode. So Kai,

Jackal: I hear you went to Camp Lost Boys recently.

Kai: Yes, I did. I went to the Oregon location over Labor Day and, uh, Jekyll was just amazing. Wow. I, you were very missed. I can tell you the very first moment that we pulled up, we had to stop for a COVID test. Mm hmm. And one of the, one of the guys there came around to the side of the car where I was sitting and said, Do you have a podcast?

And I said, yes. And then he was really sweet and talked about how much he liked the show and how he binged it. And that set the tone [00:04:00] in Jackal. I started crying every time somebody said how much they liked our

Shawn: podcast.

Kai: I, I was like, I'm going to tell Jackal, I'm going to go back and tell Jackal. I mean, like young people, older people just came up and said how much it meant to them.

And I didn't know what to say. I was like, thank you for listening. I'm so, you're so sweet. And he's giving people hugs and. I don't know. I mean, it was just really beautiful. And I think, you know, next year I really want you there. Oh my gosh. Jekyll. It was just beautiful to all the folks that said hello and just said how much they appreciate the show.

One super flattered and blown away. It's so happy to hear that. I get choked up thinking about it. I, I can't even,

Jackal: yeah. I wanted to go. I really did. I just didn't have the money this year. So yeah, you know, I mean, I do hope to go. I actually hope that Adam gets to go too, so we can have the three of us all in one space.

That would be [00:05:00] super cool.

Kai: That'd be really great. That'd be really great. Maybe we can bring Clark in there too, because Clark is doing so much with the mentoring program. Shout out to

Jackal: Clark. Awesome. Yeah, totally. And speaking of mentoring, actually, I, at my job, my job is to you. integrate newly graduated high school students into the college system and help them navigate their futures and graduating from college and things like that.

And this year we had about 10 AFAB Trans mask or spectrum non binary young adults who, who are now part of my program. And so I thought it would just be cool to have a little meet and greet with them. And so we did that last week. It was so fun. Like nine out of 10 of them showed up and they were just super rowdy.

They were so unfocused. About anything that I was kind of trying to want to talk about, whether that be like how to be our own [00:06:00] advocates in the classroom, you know, how to not out ourselves while doing, you know, homework assignments that you want to incorporate these things. Or imposter syndrome. There was this one guy who came in, in like Susie and the Banshee makeup and like hair, three colors and a dress or a skirt at least, and totally identified as male and was like, I don't see why I can't present like this and still identify as male.

And I just thought it was so great. So they were wonderful. And, uh, and afterwards, um, two things happened, you know, like. You and other of my friends have said, uh, that I made a pact with the devil because I, uh, keep looking young, even though I'm almost 60. And, uh, two of the kids said, no, we just think you're immortal.

I was just like, that's hilarious. That's hilarious. I'm not a vampire. Thank you very much. Um, and, uh, the other one said, do you regret [00:07:00] inviting a bunch of rowdy trans kids to a meet and greet? And I said, no way, no way. It was so much fun. And I mean, yeah, like it was just, it was for them anyways to like, you know, See each other and like, no, that they had more than just, you know, one person that they, uh, saw as a, not just an ally, but a reflection of themselves in the program.

And, uh, and yeah, so they were super rowdy and they were unfocused and, you know, we'd be talking about something and all of a sudden somebody would say, Oh, The clock has eyes. I'm like, where the heck is this coming from, right? Like, it is like not, it's, it was so much fun. Like, it was just so much fun. They spent two hours there, which was longer than I had anticipated, but, uh, yeah, it was very adorable.

And, uh, and yeah, I, I, I told them that unfortunately I can't be a faculty advisor for, A trans group, but, uh, I did send them [00:08:00] towards the queer empowerment club that we have on campus so that they can connect and stay connected to each other and to a broader community. We did start a WhatsApp group so that they could be in contact.

And it was just, I mean, I'm, I was so happy for myself, like proud of myself for, for creating it, but I was really, really proud of them and happy for them.

Kai: That sounds really, really nice. I think you're. Talking about something so critical for any first year college student or new college students to connect with others to stay in and support.

And then particularly the folks that were, you know, queer, trans, non binary, somewhere along that spectrum. Absolutely.

Jackal: Yeah. I mean, anybody who's really outside the quote unquote system, right. It needs, needs that, but yeah, these, these kids in particular, and they were so different than us and our generation in their, thoughts and their presentation in their, you know, just whatever.

And they didn't [00:09:00] know about the podcast, but they have since been told about the podcast and everybody is like, Oh, we want to hear it. And so, so who knows, maybe we'll have. 10 new listeners, uh, to our podcast and shout out to them. Uh, I, uh, I just admire you so much.

Kai: That's really sweet. I think when we had Rocco who helps organize this, uh, Camp Lost Boys, you know, he and others have talked about this special bond that we share.

And I just want to say what a nice job Rocco has done to provide, you know, support to trans men. To just emphasize how important it is to connect with each other, but also to take up the space as trans men.

Kai (3): Yeah.

Kai: And it was so nice to be among them, and I think, you know, there's such a richness in the diversity within our communities.

It was really special to be a part of it, and I'm glad that you're creating that for students. Thank you. I'm really happy to be a part of, you know, our broader community. So thank you to all of our listeners. Thank you [00:10:00] to new and, uh, existing, uh, folks. And thank you so much for anybody who came up to us or felt too shy to come up to me and talk to me.

You know, say how much they, they enjoy the show or, you know, I just, I'm really touched and I just wanted to make sure to tell you, Jekyll.

Jackal: Well, thank you. Thank you so much. I mean, and really just thank you for doing this with me, you know, like this, we didn't know that it would be so. popular, you know, I don't know how popular it is, you know, I still want to put a little bit of humility out there.

I just don't know that that, you know, but, uh, but, you know, we didn't even know that we would get five listeners, let alone 500, right? Like that's just, uh, it's pretty incredible to me, five seasons in to, to be part of this. And I appreciate you for, um, You know, just sticking it out with me, you know, like it's just

Kai: same and I'm not, I'm intentionally not saying your names because this whole [00:11:00] thing called disclosure, right?

Right. But I just want to say how much I enjoyed it to Jekyll. Let's keep it going, huh? Yeah. All right.

Adam: Nice job. Today's interview is with Max. Max is a 45 year old queer man, dad, and avid fossil hunter who began transitioning in 1999. He has lived all over, but his longest stint thus far has been in Philadelphia, where he works as a nurse practitioner in an outpatient infectious diseases practice and specializes in caring for people living with HIV.

He is passionate about too many things, some of which include harm reduction, queer history, rocks, poetry, and boats. Max's trianniversary is 1999, the same as Zan, Rhodes, and the other Max we interviewed a while back. So go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that year.

Cher: Do [00:12:00] you believe in life after love? Something inside me says I really don't think you're strong enough, no Do you believe in life after love? So

Jackal: welcome back everyone. Welcome to Stealth, a transmasculine podcast. We're here with Max. How are you doing today, Max?

Max: I'm doing great. Thanks.

Jackal: So we usually ask, uh, people how we know each other, but I think we don't know each other. How did you get to be on this podcast? What was your story?

Max: So I realized that I've been struggling with some pretty intense internalized transphobia.

Um, I've set the task for myself to sort of go back to my roots a little bit and, and push around and figure out what that's about. Cool. And so in doing so, I was like, I wonder if there are trans men. In the world doing certain things or whatever. And then I found your podcast and then I saw these people I do from my past [00:13:00] on there and it lifted my spirits.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: Awesome. Well, I'm so glad you're here. Thinking back in the way back machine, uh, Max, how did you learn about trans masculine identities?

Max: I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, I think I learned about like trans women. And I never understood, like, what trans men could be. I didn't even know that was a concept.

And then I think, honestly, like, I really, really pushed against the concept of being, so we use the word dyke, and I'm gonna use that now, and I don't mean to be offensive to anybody, but that was, like, the word. And I, as a young person, I was mostly sexually interested in men. And, and I really pushed against the idea of like lesbianism because to identify as such meant 100 percent that I was a woman.

And I think that my body and my brain just were like, what is that? That's not me. So I sort of resisted that, even though I sort of was like [00:14:00] queer adjacent, always in high school and doing things like that. And then, As I got older, I was like, well, maybe that is what I am. Maybe I should lean into this. So for this like real hot second, like probably about nine months of my life, I was like, I'm going to do that balls to the wall dyke thing.

And I went to the lesbian Avengers and I met this really rad trans woman who was a part of that. And she was super punk rock. And I was like, enamored with her. And one night at one of the meetings, someone knocked on the door and wanted to come to the meeting. And it was this trans dude. And they were like, no, no men, which to this day, I think is actually kind of great.

Like, I think it was so cool that they were accepting of trans women and not trans dudes, but something about that. I was like, holy shit, trans. And then the Lauren Cameron book, like that sort of made me understand embodiment. I was like, Whoa, I can look like that. I can, you know, that was a really big thing.

[00:15:00] Yeah. I think those were the first, very first inklings. And then, like, the first trans men I ever met is a wild story. I feel like I'm very lucky. Um, I was at International Mr. Leather and I used to go just to in Chicago, International Mr. Leather had this sort of like marketplace where you could just go and like walk around and see like vendors and things and I saw things that I can't unsee.

But it was like incredibly awesome and I was 19 years old, and I went to International Mr. Leather and I'm walking around. And like, I just look like a, like a, either a little kid or a little dyke, depending on your brain space, right? And this guy walks up to me and he's wearing a full leather highway patrolman cop, you know, like, like, like state police cop uniform, like, like the tan thing.

And he just comes up to me and he's like, you know, there's going to be this trans guy [00:16:00] meet and greet later.

Kai (3): Wow.

Max: Or I think he said F to M meet and greet later. And I was like, what? And so I went to it and I went downstairs and it was this table and Michael Munson from Forge was sitting at that table and there were a lot of other magic people.

And they went around the table and they asked me my name, and it was the first time I, like, named myself. And it was so freaking cool. Like, the first trans men I met were, like, these cool leather guys, you know? And it was, like, such a mix, you know? It wasn't just men on Sostrom. You know, there were people who identified as genderqueer.

I heard they, them pronouns, like, really early on. And everybody was just like in this thing. And then I got invited to a play party and the person hosting the play party kind of flipped out because I was so young. And it, you know, I mean, I was fully an adult. Everybody, you know, consenting adult, [00:17:00] but, you know, I think everybody there was like, that guy was like, Oh shit, it's like this kid at my house.

It was amazing. And I was very lucky.

Kai: That's great. And I'm really glad you ran into some folks and tell us a little bit more about how you actually started your own, your transition back then.

Max: I think like leading up to that moment, there had been a lot of momentum, right? Like, I think, you know, you start thinking about things in the universe starts.

I mean, pathways open up in kind of surprising ways when you start looking, you know, and back then like I was not really like there wasn't like internet, really, or I guess I just wasn't on it because I'm a little bit of like a 90s Luddite, but I feel like there were just these funny little paths, and For instance, like, like the Lauren Cameron book happened, like traveling with my friend about a year before I transitioned, I went like to this anarchist thing up in Toronto.

And we like rode freight trades. [00:18:00] I rode with this bad ass trans woman who I had met, who I was just totally in love with at the moment. And I remember talking to her and she was like, why don't you just be a guy? And I was like, what? And I was like, no one will believe. That's what I said. No one will believe

Kai (3): me.

Max: And I think that it just planted this concept that I could. And then I was in college at the time that I went to, we had like a little queer movie theater thing. And that, that movie, Ma Vie en Rose played, which is like about a little trans girl. And I was like, Moved by it. And a friend of mine who was like a lovely snarky asshole was like, what's the matter with you?

You want to be a little girl when you grow up? And I just like burst into tears. And the next day, this full queer studies professor named Bertram Kohler, RIP, fantastic older gay man, like Freudian analyst, like the neatest old man. I was like, Dr. Kohler, I need to meet with you [00:19:00] desperately. And we went to this little coffee shop at my college and I was like, Dr.

Kohler, I think I might be transsexual. And he said, are you going to kill yourself? And I said, no, sir. And he said, Oh, good. And then he just like, talked to me about it and it was so cool. He didn't have to be that cool. And like later on, he wrote me this really lovely letter of support so that I could get chest surgery.

And he didn't need to do any of these things. I was very lucky in those ways.

Kai: That's great. You mentioned you were looking for it. You were an anarchist, a student, you were riding trains around, going to different events. You were tied into the queer community, the kink community. Tell us a little bit more about your life.

Like what else was happening back then?

Max: I just remember it being everything all at once, you know, like transitioning. Like I met these really cool guys and they gave me, who I'm not going to name, but they gave me, they lived in Chicago and they gave me incredible amounts of support. They were like older than me.

[00:20:00] And they just really sort of told me like. This is the therapist you need to go to. This therapist will write you a letter in three months. This is the doctor that you need to go to. You know, there was like a queer health center in Chicago called Howard Brown. You know, they sort of gave me a lot of guidance in that way, because there wasn't.

And then we would go to these, we would go to these awesome like midwestern trans guy meetup kind of things like once a month. And they would either be in Milwaukee or Chicago. It was neat, you know, like it was such a wide range in age and identities. You know, there were like very, very, very like, Buttoned up kind of professional guys.

And then there were like leather men and, you know, people who had children, you know, things that I just didn't, I feel, I feel really like lucky to have had that around me. But it was also like very lonesome. You know, I didn't know really anybody my age at all who was doing this. [00:21:00]

Kai: Right. You were younger than the other folks.

Yeah.

Max: Yeah. A lot. Like I remember going to like true spirit I think in 99 and I was listening to asters talking on I met aster at a true spirit I feel like of the people under age 25. There were maybe a dozen of us And we just were like this little chaos agent of a pod, you know, like, like every everything was like, I remember we making fun of kind of the like the M to M dudes, like we were like odd and mask and like, it was kind of awful because we could have learned wonderful things, but we're cute and dumb.

And all we wanted to do was hang out with each other. It felt really great because I was really worried that when I transitioned that I didn't want to just be a boring ass fucking adult, you know? Like I didn't want to be a boring ass man, because what's the point? Like what's the point in being? Like [00:22:00] transsexual, if you can't like stir the pot a little in your being, right?

Kai: You mentioned one of your first reactions when you were on that train ride with the trans woman, no one will believe me. That's a really interesting thing to pop out of your brain and you somehow connect and find community in Chicago and elsewhere. Tell us more about like the, believe me, no one will believe me part, but also what were some of the messages you heard about how we should live?

You know, you're supposed to go to this therapist for this amount of time. Talk to us about that.

Max: The believing thing is really interesting because I think back then there was a lot of like having to self explain, right? Like you, you know, you have to convince the therapist that you're real and then you have to convince the doctor that you're real.

And I remember, you know, getting the message that like, don't let them know that you're anything but the most buttoned up like that therapist was squirrely. But I remember at one point her looking at me cause I was taking on this sort of undergrad and master's degree program at the same time. [00:23:00] She looked at me and she goes, Oh, yet another like overachieving F to M.

And I feel like that was a huge part of it is kind of going beyond so that you can prove to the world that you like are worthy to be. I think it's a narrative. Like I love Louis Sullivan, right? Like he's sort of someone who was like proto trans stuff to me. Finding his writing was like really important to me.

There's this video of Bet Power talking about meeting Louis Sullivan for the first time and I feel like everyone should watch it. It's like the most magical, sweet, thing ever of just how like Lewis was just like so little and with his bird and like that power came in like all like masked out like trying to be super tough but I I feel like there's some in the like transsexual or like the the pamphlet e kind of book he wrote about like you know guidance for like an f to m person he talks [00:24:00] about like how to be a good partner in this way that there's this moment where he sort of says like You know what it's like to have been embodied this way, so you can, like, make women feel better than dudes?

Like, cis dudes? And I feel like there's this little part of the brain, for me, that's like, I have to do things a little bit better, or I at least felt that way for a long time. In order to be my whole self. And I feel like there's part of me that needs to just get over that, but I don't know if I ever will, you know, like I have to be a better, I have to be a better man.

Yeah. You know? Right.

Jackal: Yeah. I mean, can't we just be the good men we are without having to have this idea of. Inferiority complex, like we have to be perfect, I always say in any situation, but this seems really relevant strive for excellence and not perfection because none of us are perfect. And we all have [00:25:00] excellence in our own way so I, I just encourage you to keep going down that path because we deserve to be our full

Max: selves.

I think we should give each other the room to be deeply imperfect.

Jackal: Yeah, totally. Well, one of our guests used the word grace, and I love that word, you know, like we just need to give ourselves grace to be human and to be imperfect beings. And that's true. How do you think your social standings like race, class, In this case, a lot of times impact your ability to transition, your fears about transitioning, anything like that.

Max: I grew up with a lot of class privilege. So I think that helped in some ways, but I didn't get help in terms of my transition until I was like, later on, I had some like bleeding issues and needed to get a hysterectomy because I was back before they understood why X, Y, Z happened. So I had to help with that.

Right. My family, like, cut me off and then scooped [00:26:00] me back up later on, but that's its own story. I don't know, being young was, like, kind of singular and interesting because there were times, you know, there's like that Onion article where it's like, area teen, only gay kid in the whole world, and sometimes there's, like, these moments.

that you feel like that, but it also gave me so much room to be like balls to the wall because I was like, what the fuck am I going to lose? Right? Like I was like fully prepared to lose so much at that stage in my life. And so I was like outspoken in a way that I'm less so now, I think in some ways, and I think I was like less afraid to lose stuff.

I made me like talk to people. And then I was able to make friends. You know, I made zines because that was like a part of the culture. And so like, I was swapping zines. Like one of my favorite things in the whole world was that I got mentioned in someone else's zine.

Kai (3): Yeah,

Max: you know, like I thought it [00:27:00] was so neat, right?

Yeah. There was something neat about that sort of world of being like, Oh my God, you know? And then I started meeting more and more people sort of around my age. who were traveling, you know, they'd stay at your house. You're like, Oh my gosh, this trans guy stayed at my house. You know, I, I don't know. I think there's, there's a piece of me that feels really awesome about that.

I got, I got interviewed by the sort of more sort of professional older than me, trans guy back when I was younger. And his sort of theory was like, like trans guys, like are trans people kind of do that, like go to Sweden thing, you know, like, Where you kind of like, close your life up, and then come back reinvented.

Kai (3): And

Max: he couldn't conceptualize the fact that like, I was in school, and I had a job, and I just transitioned through that.

Kai (3): Like his

Max: brain was like, what? And then later he was like, well, you and your gender queer friend. And I was like, dude, first of [00:28:00] all, I'm your elder in

Kai (3): dog years.

Max: Second of all, like, I'm not

Kai (2): genderqueer

Max: like I have an interesting gender but like just because I don't look like this certain kind of white guy doesn't mean that like I am not like a trans man.

Right, right. It was really interesting I think because his age and kind of stuck him a little not trying to sound because I'm his age now but like I think he was sort of like stuck in like his He needed to fully leave his life and come back. Otherwise, he was worried that he was going to lose all this, like, lose so many things.

And I think there was something really awesome about being young where you're just like, I don't care.

Jackal: Interesting. Interesting. Well, it sounds like in that space, I mean, Kai and I both were told like you did have to do that and we didn't really do it. We did it in some ways and we did it and [00:29:00] didn't do it in other ways.

Uh, I think we were more out than the rule keepers, gatekeepers told us we should be. Right. Because we had kind of a critical mass community where we were at. But yeah, like it was definitely a message that, you know, that was how you were quote unquote supposed to do things. Absolutely. So that comes with something that you said before, whereas like you're not this way, you're transitioning through school, you're transitioning through work.

So everybody's kind of knowing. But now you said like you were more, I think you used the term out, like, so you were more out or open then than you are now. And our show is called Stealth. So we always ask, what does stealth mean to you?

Max: So I've been thinking about this a lot. And it's one of the reasons I am sort of been intrigued by this podcast, because I think for my sexual orientation, I feel like I'm very out, right?

For my, like, gender expression, I feel like I'm very out in the [00:30:00] world. And I feel like there's that whole concept of, you know, it's pride. You're out and you're proud, right? And I think that there's a lens on trans people that is, if you're not out about your history, that you're not proud of yourself. And I think what people don't understand is like, my authentic self is my just getting to, like, this is my authentic self.

I'm not hiding fucking anything. Right. Like, it's like the same thing as like, we don't disclose. Like mad shit about ourselves in the world. There's so many things we don't disclose about our pasts because it's just like, maybe once you get to be close with someone and you know, I think as a, like a trans person, there's sort of this like in and out, in and out, right?

There's places that I'm out. There are people who I'm out with. Like I have friends that have known me for a long time, you know, but like there are other people that just have no idea and that's fine and I don't need them to [00:31:00] know, but it's not because. Of any kind of deep shame or anything. It's just like, what is that going to add to the conversation?

And if anything, sometimes it actually takes away from the conversation. I work in healthcare as a nurse practitioner and I work in infectious diseases, predominantly with people living with HIV, and I advocate on behalf of a lot of trans people. And I have found that as a person who reads cis, I can advocate the fuck out of some trans people.

I can call people out for misgendering people. I can be angry and adamant. But if I'm trans, I'm an annoying squeaky wheel.

Jackal: Yeah, when do we use it to our advantage? And when do we, like, when is it, like, used against us, right?

Max: Totally, you know? And it's like, my boss, what time we were on the elevator, I'm Going up to [00:32:00] work.

She's this doctor and she was like, I just wish a trans person worked here. Ha

Jackal: ha ha. Did you choose to come out in that moment or no?

Max: I came out to her a couple days later and she did this really annoying thing where she pretended like she already do and I was like, you didn't know.

Jackal: Right.

Max: I think because it just ate at my soul a little bit.

Not like letting her know. I don't know.

Jackal: I think, um, for me, what happens is, I used to say, That, uh, you know, I don't come out or I don't disclose because the subject of transgender doesn't come up in conversation randomly, but then I would find it did. And I still didn't come out. And then I had to have this dilemma of if I was going to disclose or not.

And it did have a little hamster wheel in my head that was like, I should, I missed my opportunity. I should have, I should have, I should have kind of thing like that. So I don't know, maybe that was what was going on for you too.

Max: Yeah, I think there's some, like, weird road to hell is paved with good intentions with cis people sometimes around [00:33:00] trans stuff.

Like, there was this woman in my program who I became friends with, and she met someone exterior to the program that I guess outed me to her.

Jackal: Oh, wow.

Max: And we're sitting around this big table, and we're at the last day of this thing, we're having some beers, we're chillin And she looks at me and she's like, you know, I never asked you your pronoun.

And I was like, I guess I never asked you yours either. But I was like, do you think I'm so dumb and so not capable of self fucking managing that I didn't fucking tell you my pronouns? Like, do you, like, what is this? Like, what is this strange thing? And I, you know, I feel like that about outness where I'm just like, chill, cishet people.

Do

Kai: you feel like some sort of tension? I work for an AIDS service organization. I've been really low to non disclosing for decades. And now it's different. I felt at the time when I was low to non disclosing, a real tension. And it was [00:34:00] very challenging for me. You know, and I can understand how If you speak out as someone that's of community, that folks may not take you as seriously or write you off as the rabble rouser, you know, of course you'd say that.

But what's it like? I mean, do you, you're in an elevator, we have so, we're faced with so many opportunities, as Jekyll said, you're in an elevator with someone, God, if only we had a trans person here, we have to balance all that.

Max: I mean, that tension is huge. I literally like wrote, I was, you know, sort of writing down things to think about and like tension was a huge piece of that because part of me worries like, Am I not out because I hate myself?

A student that was working with me, it was like a CIS woman had like, she, her, and this patient just like berated my student and I had to turn, I turned to the patient and I was like, can we not just like be bigoted against the whole community? Like, let's relax. When I was in nursing school, like I couldn't be out.

I felt like at all. It was, I mean, I was in the mid aughts and it's such a fricking hetero super universe [00:35:00] of normalcy. And I used to just make up stories about my cousin. Like, I'd be like, Oh, my cousin is this. My cousin is that like, someone would say something like awful about divorce or something dumb.

And I'd be like, Oh, my cousin is like divorced. It has like the kids from the divorce or, and then someone comes up with the trans thing and I'm like, Oh, my trans cousin, but there was something about the cousin conversation that like, it wasn't so close, like my partner or like my brother, but it was close enough that like people would ask questions.

But they wouldn't be mean, because they were like, that's that dude's family, I can't be issueful about

Kai: it. That's a little buffer for you, too.

Max: And I love to be about professionalism. Like, when someone's realist in whatever awful capacity, I'm like, that's so unprofessional. I don't know, it's definitely tension.

And I'm out as like a queer person, you know, I'm out as like someone who Statesmen and women at work and, but, you know, I mean, there was a gender [00:36:00] reveal cupcake thing at my work and I was like, I'm like

Kai (2): murder someone. So were they revealing the gender of the cupcakes? What was the gender of the cupcakes?

Max: They were like that pink dye in the middle of the, and I asked my manager, I said, congratulations on coming out. She said, what are you talking? I just, it's like that kind of thing where you're like, Yeah. But at the same time, I keep getting invited to speak about trans rights at my work. And I'm like, okay, I keep doing this.

I feel like there's something weird about not being out that has like leveraged something. And I hate it because all I want to do is just go to work and not fucking think about it. I had a birthday party when I turned 40 and I made this little like math equation thing That equaled 40 and one of it was like years spending Thinking that I wanted to be a man and years spending as a man because it was kind of my like trans Sexquinox [00:37:00] Year or whatever.

Jackal: I like that phrase

Max: and this friend of mine Came to my birthday party was a friend of mine of several years was like I had no idea you're a train And I was like how the fuck I hang out with you all the time I thought that someone would have told you already kind of thing. I think we like doubt our own movements in the world sometimes You

Jackal: It's funny that you mentioned that.

Cause I did have a friend or I do have a friend, still have a friend. And, uh, she worked at the U S embassy and, you know, we were, I was close with the U S embassy where, where I was living. And, uh, she brought me this, all this, uh, swag from the U S embassy during pride and a lot of it had like trans flags on it and dah, dah, dah, and this and that, so we've been friends for a few years and I did assume she knew.

And I guess. I did something on Facebook, like, that was kind of more outing myself than normal. And she, she came up to me and was like, Oh, I didn't know. And I was like, [00:38:00] you know, like, for me, it's like, because I'm not trying to be stealth, because I'm not trying to be like, whatever Lotus Closure, I just kind of give the default of you already know.

Right. And if you don't know, that's not on me, because I'm not trying to be like, whatever. But I mean, she was totally fine, but it's just one of those things that it's like, really? You didn't know? Like, I don't know. Like, it's shocking.

Max: I feel like disclosure is a very active process. Like it's not like a passive process.

Jackal: It's true. It's true.

Max: Right. And I think that's, that's passing privilege, right? Fully. I have to actively disclose to people, so when I'm just living my life, it's like, whatever, you know? And it's kind of funny that way, I made a trans faux pas. Background story, my friends and I were joking that if human meat had a word, it would be hork, the other white meat or whatever.

And I went to this fucking party, and this kid was, this like, younger trans guy, was like, made, asked everybody to put their name, like, pronouns on their [00:39:00] name tag. And And I really don't love pronouns, like I don't love pronouns. I feel like pronouns sometimes to me feel like, it feels a little dangerous sometimes, pronouns.

I, I, I don't know, I mean maybe that's just me being dumb. And I get it, like I get it. But also sometimes it feels bleh. Everybody was putting their pronouns on it. I put he, him, fork. He, ham, fork. This kid got so, this, someone got really angry with me. Because they were like, oh god, cue the pronoun jokes. I And I was like, Oh no, they think of this mean, like yucky sis dad guy who's like making, you know, right wing Bruno jokes at their party.

I felt so bad.

Jackal: You know, I get it though, because like, I think that we are so invisible that people don't realize, like, I felt like I was put in a position of either not coming out and perpetuating my own invisibility or coming out. As trans, but he him [00:40:00] and not knowing if I was in a safe environment, you know, like, so that was kind of my, my weirdness around this.

So I get it, but I hear that you, you know, you, you were like, you know, the, the gentle giant that was like, I'm so sorry.

Kai: You're also bringing up, you know, when people have information about us and they disclose without our knowledge or permission, that can lead to some complicated. Uh, decision making on our parts, right?

Like who knows in the room who doesn't know, all of a sudden you misgendered me or you're asking me my pronouns or you're, you're, you're saying bizarre things that you never would have in the, it's such a, such a tricky thing. And it can really impact our professional personal safety.

Max: It's true. It's definitely true.

Kai: So let me just shift gears a little bit. We're talking this season about our strengths, the strengths of our transmasculine community. Um, and we want to learn more from you, Max, how you manage bouncing back from adversity. Um, and one of the things that, you know, if you could just share a little bit [00:41:00] about, you know, you're in the Northeast, maybe a little bit about what's happening in your region now, these days, how connected or not connected are you to the trans community?

What's going on?

Max: I would say I'm not that connected to trans community. I have trans friends. I really value people. You know, I, I really dislike gender segregated anything. I like really value the trans women in my life. I feel like I have a lot of people in my life who are non binary, which has like pushed me.

It's pushed me to like think a lot about things and be a little kinder about things and good in the world. I do think I have a different experience than some people. You know, I think like I feel very transsexual. I feel very much like I'm a man and sometimes it's corny, but like I I've been living as one for a very long time.

Jackal: Can you explain transsexual to us? Like what is transsexual mean to you? It's a very unpopular word amongst young people right [00:42:00] now. It's considered outdated. Why do you use it? Why is it important?

Max: I mean, I love it because it's faint, right? First of all, I fucking love, okay. I love, like, it's like the word queer.

Like, queer has not lost its fangs. And one of the things I love about queering something is that you continue to fucking challenge it. Because there's no such thing as any binary. And we all need to, like, always continuously, like, think about the fact that there's gonna be something outside of that, or in the middle of that, or exterior.

And I think, for me, like, that word just made sense because I, I became a man, but like, then my gender became something I could actually enjoy. You know, it's like, I was this like weird little kid and like a differently gendered person, et cetera, et cetera. But like once my, I was embodied, especially like I had lower surgery.

I went to Serbia by myself to have sex change, which I love to say. I feel so embodied and I can just do whatever I want [00:43:00] gender wide. So for me, like, I don't feel transgendered. I feel like gender is like, what is it? Roles, clothes. You know, like, activities, interests. You know, I find it very tiresome when people think that trans people do what they do, because like, oh, I wasn't allowed to play football, or like, I didn't want to do X, Y, and Z, or I, I knit, or I want long hair, or short hair, or whatever.

Those are just fun activities, and they should be available to everyone. You know, like, gender should be this big consent based fucking thing. Where you get to opt in and I don't know, I feel like after whatever I did that made me feel embodied, I feel like I can do more with just like having fun in my body.

Like swim naked and like enjoy other people.

Kai: tell us a little bit more about that because, you know, given the current political climate, things are shifting a bit, but how did you come to this place where you're [00:44:00] feeling a freedom?

Max: I think being older is weirdly helpful. I was read as a boy well before I ever transitioned.

And I think it was one of the things that sort of clued me in to the fact that I needed to do something. And one of the reasons I transitioned was that I needed to feel like an adult. I felt like a little kid, and I needed to be in an adult body, so I think that was really important to me, and I think it's just taken a lot of time, and having sex with people that are not fetishizing me, or not having sex with me despite the fact that I'm, you know, just people that just genuinely like my body, and then also just being me.

In my body physically. Like, it's really important. You know, I tell my patients, I'm, I'm prescribing you a little fresh air and sunshine. We compare, I compare myself to other people to the point of, like, self doom. And I feel like as a trans person, you're sort of supposed to, do you pass? Are you real? Are you this?

Do you have muscles? Where does your fat sit on your body? [00:45:00] You know and you can hate yourself so much and you either have to like Get over that or you're gonna feel that way forever I was just went to this punk festival of a straight guy friend of mine Who's lovely and I found out that he had never swum naked before And I was like, I hope that you get to swim naked at some point in your life I don't need you to do that.

I don't need you to do that in front of anybody else But it is a really glorious thing But the politics of it is that they're trying to take our healthcare away, and they're really actively trying to do it. Like, they're trying to take it away from everyone, you know, and the discourse around trans women in sports is the frickin Trojan horse of doom, you know.

I wrote an email to this doctor at Texas A& M University, just made it such that their healthcare clinic cannot prescribe hormones. To students. They're they're adults. They're fucking adults. Right. And some doctor was like, the horrific this and that. Right. So I wrote him back and I didn't do a play by play, but I was like, look, I'm a grownup.[00:46:00]

I'm a medical professional. What's such right. And he was like, well, your story isn't the same. And I wrote back and I was like, this is not respectability politics. I was like, my story is 100 percent the same. I transitioned when I was 19 years old. You know, I was in college. And it's just infuriating. It's fucking infuriating.

Get the fuck out of my fucking community, dumb fucking asshole. You know nothing about this. What's so funny to me is like, they could do all they want to queer people, but they just keep making us. We're like Whack A Mole. We're like the coolest Whack A Mole ever.

Jackal: You're so funny. That's hilarious. Hey, so what are you most proud of in your life?

Max: One thing I'm sad about is that I have, most of my parents are dead. And sometimes I wish that there was someone who could see me and be proud of me. I know it sounds really fucking dumb.

Jackal: No, it does not. But

Max: like, I'm a parent. I'm a parent. And like, [00:47:00] one of the things that's the greatest thing in the world is to like witness my kids like moments and be like, you're so neat.

Why am I proud? Okay. Philadelphia has informed consent around hormones and Philadelphia had it before any other city, they just didn't promote it. And I was on a panel of people when I was really young that God asked, what do you need as patients? And we advocated for informed consent. So I feel like I am part of the reason why there's informed consent for hormones.

That's huge. So I feel proud of that.

Jackal: What would you say to the newer trans and non binary folks?

Max: If they're worried about losing their healthcare, they need to know that we've done this before we had options. So, like, we can make this happen. I remember giving this trans guy I know a couple shots of tea so that his voice would drop, so that he'd go to an endocrinologist [00:48:00] without a letter.

We can do this. Like, we can travel, we can get medications for each other, we can keep each other well. Like, so don't panic about that. And then, also, like, there's always this thing that people sort of bring to me that's like, I'm not trans enough. I feel like there's a lot of people over the years that are, you know, they're, they're, you know, whatever trans is like this huge concept, right?

Oh, I don't fit in it. And there's no such thing like just be, don't worry, you know, like if you spend too much time online, or if you spend too much time worrying about people and where you fit in some kind of hierarchy, just know that like, we're such a ragtag awesome bunch of people, someone's going to scoop you.

Someone's going to see you and that's awesome. And it's really important to see people like it's really fricking important.

Jackal: Thank you. And, um, how do you think we can be more [00:49:00] supportive of our trans masculine community, whether that be the younger folks or the older folks, like trans elders, how can we be more supportive of you?

That's

Max: a really good question. I think I've spent a lot of time not worrying about us in a funny way. You know, like I think there's this weird idea that we're okay, and I don't always think we're okay. You know, and I think, like, there's this really awesome poem I love, it's called Three Moves, and there's a line in it where he's like, this guy is the only friend who calls and asks, how's your soul?

You know, I have this friend that every now and then will text me and be like, how's your soul? That I feel like is what we need. We don't need visibility, we need safety, and we need to be connected with each other, and We need to realize that like getting older, it can be really lonely when you're capable in the world and like, take care of yourself, people don't check in on you all the time because they [00:50:00] know you're capable.

So when you have a moment and you kind of fall off and you wish that people were checking in, it doesn't always happen because you're the capable human. I

Kai: think one thing that you're bringing up is so many of us who are in helping professions or older who have been, you know, maybe. In movements, you know, like some of our older trans guests who have been very pivotal figures to help get healthcare passed, for example, Uh, you know, they are less visible and maybe we aren't checking in on each other enough.

Yeah. You're raising a really good point because just because we're not asking for it doesn't mean we don't need some support.

Jackal: Absolutely. I mean, just because you can't see it doesn't mean we don't need it, right? Like that's, that's very, very true. So we're at our last question for this part, Max. What do you think we should have asked that we didn't or any famous last words of wisdom?

Max: For me, it's really important when I was talking about like working on my own [00:51:00] internalized transphobia is I think that as we like get older, rigidity is. is a thing that we all need to work on resisting. We need to resist rigidity and like resist like kids these days because the kids are fucking great and we were kids and we were great, right?

And and we're interesting now too and it's like I have to remember to be flexible and remember to that like in my heart is still like I'm queer and I'm an anarchist and and I'm a fucking transsexual and like all these neat things. That, like, are really important, and then I think the other thing, like, I was reading this really badass anarchist, um, indigenous zine, they were talking about, like, like, some principles of, like, anarchism, like, indigenous anarchism, and they were, like, everything is alive, and then the ascendance of memory, like, keep memory, and then the other thing was, like, sharing is [00:52:00] living, right, so I think about, like, Like, scooping people up, not forgetting history, you know, because one of the things that the oppressors always want is to delete the history.

I did this talk at my work, they kind of let me do whatever I want for this queer talk, and so I did this queer history talk, and y'all, the reason that we use chest x rays, To screen for tuberculosis is because of Alan Hart, who was a trans man, right? Like, and I had to go get this annoying fucking thing where they shot like radioactive dye up my pee hole.

And the radiologist was like this kind of gross guy who wouldn't make eye contact. He's really old. And he was with a resident, like a news with a resident, right? Like a younger guy. And we're, he's doing this thing, not making eye contact. At one point he says the resident, Oh, I guess you never thought you'd see this.

And, you know, and then when I like hopped up off, this was like not even six months ago, and I like hopped up off the table and I was like, I'll bet you didn't know [00:53:00] that the reason we use chest x rays to screen for tuberculosis is because of people like me. And the resident was like all, ooh, it was cute.

And it was a moment. I'm just like, We need to keep our history because there's always been someone who's done whatever it is we're doing, but they did it like infinitely many years ago before us and in such interesting ways.

Jackal: Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been really great to connect with you. I'm so glad you reached out to us.

I'm so glad you shared your story with us.

Max: You guys are awesome. Thank you so much for doing this podcast.

Kai: Thank you so much, Max, for being on our show. So Jekyll, what did you think about our interview with Max today? You know, he gave me

Jackal: really sweet energy and he, you know, like he reminds me of being a punk anarchist back in the day.

Like he's still even theories that kind of body. I know nobody can see him cause this is a podcast, but that, that kind of body [00:54:00] angstiness, you know, like in that. And I just thought he was really cute. And I thought that his, um, I mean, he had good things to say and I'm glad that he reached out. What did you think?

Kai: Yeah, I do think he captured that era in the 90s and late 90s so well. Took me back. Particularly talking about the camp trans and his experience of just running into people in the, you know, over the course of his, his life. Uh, young adulthood, uh, meeting other trans guys and how folks took them in. And, uh, I really enjoyed him talking about the first meetings that he went to in Chicago, where there were like these straight laced looking dudes.

And like, I can imagine just like Oxford shirts and khakis and then like, sort of like less that, you know, the, uh, the spectrum and just how. Over the course of his life, it seems like he really likes to connect with folks that are non, not on the binary.

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, that was the other thing I liked is he talked about, there is no binary.

Everything is either [00:55:00] outside or in between that. And, you know, and I really loved that because it made me think, as we were talking about, like just, just black and white. You know, you talk about a binary, you talk about black and white. And then I think about the bright white and the ultra black and then the grays in between, right?

Like he's so right. There is no binary. It is always a spectrum that can fall outside of what's considered. White and what's considered black or whatever binary you want to use and everything that's in between that, which is always something other than that, than black and white, right? Whatever binary you want to use.

But I, I really appreciated that idea.

Kai: Well, I think his, his energy overall, I'm, uh, I'm with you is that he just is such a beautiful person and he, Is, you know, he uses humor and he also doesn't hesitate to be direct if somebody says something [00:56:00] stupid, you know, like from where he sits and when he's non disclosing and he calls people out very directly, whether it's the doctor or, you know, treated him or referred, you know, talked about him to someone else with him present on the table or whatever, you know, just, you know, his, his, His ability to like fire off an email or do something like that.

I really appreciated that. He also was conscious of, he was thinking about safety, you know, and the stakes that, you know, at, at disclosing and living a really out, like out life. And then, you know, he did bring up, you know, somebody like a colleague had outed him without his knowledge or permission and just how complicated that can be for us.

I don't know, do you, I mean like when I tell someone, a friend, a colleague, I just assume it's out of my hands and I can't sit there and fret about it. Like I usually don't have a caveat, [00:57:00] like don't tell anybody, you know, I don't, I don't do that anymore. How about you?

Jackal: No, I never do. And it's so funny. I have this thing about never giving money to people.

I can't afford to get, to not get back. Right. Because I don't want people to, you know, have to think about paying me back. And it's kind of the same way about, about disclosing. It's like, I never think about them not disclosing for me at some point because I can't get it back. Like, I can't take back what I just said.

I can't. I can't be worried about where that is going afterwards. And that's kind of where, like one, one of the things that we were talking about was, um, just assuming people know, like my friend, like assuming that my friends know, even if I haven't disclosed to them directly and that kind of, uh, active and passive, um, disclosure kind of thing.

Like if somebody knows out there, I assume everybody knows, you know, and I just don't have to [00:58:00] worry about it. Now that doesn't mean I don't worry about it because there is such a thing as safety. There is such a thing as violence against us. There is such a thing as discrimination in housing and jobs and education and things like that.

So it's not to say that I don't worry about it overall, but I don't typically worry about it personally.

Kai: Yeah. And one last thing I will say is, uh, you know, his, Comments about not being trans enough or not being, no one will believe me. Things like that. I, I thought that was such food for thought. I really, again, it's always comes back to being hopeful about the younger people.

The youth, I'm hoping that things are loosening. And from what I'm hearing, it's, it's loosening, you know, like his child, his 17 year old shows up and they're just who they are, you know, of, of, of their free, they're, they're expressing themselves in ways that are. That are open and honest and exploring and I think that that's really beautiful and instead of you know [00:59:00] We must wear this outfit to be trans enough or tell this doctor this about us I really I really like the fact that it's not about convincing someone or It's just like be kind to each other and loosen up

Jackal: Yeah, that was our generation of, like, having to, like, say the right thing.

I just want to end by asking Kai, How's your soul? Oh my god. I loved that. How's your soul, Jackal? No, I mean, it's just that, that's going to be my new phrase with people. It's like, how is your soul?

Kai: Yeah. One way to get my throat, like, just to have me be quiet is to ask me that question.

Jackal: You're like, how do you answer that question?

For me, I think it's a good, like, self check in question. Like, it's not like, how are you doing? Where you can just say, fine. How are you doing emotionally? You know, like what, I don't have anything going on, but how is your soul? means that I have to, [01:00:00] like, self reflect. I've had a rough week at work, I'm tired, you know, like whatever, you know, like I'm feeling motivated with just whatever, you know, like whatever it forced me to do a self check.

And I really appreciated it for that.

Kai: Yeah. The first thing that came to my mind was cell lead lead. But also imperfect, you know, and I think that's a really nice, a nice thing. It's like,

Jackal: so you're thinking overall, like, you know, like in general, like, I prefer imperfect rather than sullied. Cause just, I think it's funny.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's my soul. Yeah. I, I will not invalidate how you feel about your soul. So there you go.

Kai: Yeah. All right. Okay. Tell him I have a nice job today. Jekyll. Jacqueline. I want to remind our listeners that we have a new member section. We want to thank. Those [01:01:00] like Emery, Harold, Taylor, Matt, and Alex who have become members.

Our member section offers bonus questions, features transmasculine pioneers no longer with us, and hilarious personal stories by our volunteer extraordinaire, Adam. Here's another teaser.

Adam: Anyway, the story I wanted to tell today is a pretty familiar one in the land of transmasc ridiculousness in that it centers on a misplaced dick.

So, as I mentioned, part of my whole midlife trans epiphany involved blowing up my 13 year marriage, Which in turn meant that I needed to sell my house, which I'm actually still in the process of doing. And I have two kids, and my ex and I split custody of them. But point being, kids live here in this house 50 percent of the time, and as such my house frequently looks like a tornado of glitter and crayons just ripped right through it.

So anytime the broker wants to bring prospective buyers by, I have to do a frenzied power clean of the house to make it look halfway presentable. So the other day, the broker calls and says he has some folks who want to see it, and I do the frenzied power clean and clear everyone out of the house. I'm home a couple hours later after the showing, feeling extremely [01:02:00] proud of myself for the manic level of cleaning efforts.

And then noticed that I managed to leave a giant, hyper realistic, quite veiny dick in the sink. Ugh. Yeah. So, after having a requisite shame spiral of crippling embarrassment, I text the broker, I believe it was just a string of fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, with like a thousand apologies after. And then I chose that moment to out myself as trans to him, since that seemed like a logical thing to do.

He, being a grown up who is extremely focused on making his commission, replied with something to the effect of, lol, all good, I've seen worse, and said that he'd actually noticed it in time to conceal it before the buyers saw it, which of course made me wonder whether that meant he had picked it up and moved it somewhere, and then moved it.

back or maybe he just threw a towel over it or something. These are the questions that keep me up at night wondering whether my broker has touched my dick.

Jackal: We also accept donations and we want to thank Kida and Evan for their donations. The membership is only four dollars a month, so go [01:03:00] to transmasculinepodcast.

com and sign up now. We don't want to be gatekeepers, so if you feel like you can't afford 4 a month, please reach out to us via email transmasculinepodcastatgmail. com. Consider buying a t shirt while you're on our website, or if you want to be cool like Adam, we're always looking for volunteers, and we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

And now it's time for Transponder. Today's TransJoy Transponder segment is a shout out both to the past and the future. So yesterday, TransJoyKC hosted another TransJoy Day in the Park. Happy Halloween. I hope you guys had a great event. I hope everybody had TransJoy in their lives. And congratulations on just putting together another wonderful event.

For the future part, Lafayette University in Philadelphia is hosting a Thinking Trans Trans Thinking Conference, [01:04:00] March 27th and 28th in 2025. However, the deadline to submit proposals is November 15th. They state, trans philosophy, broadly construed, provides a space where trans people can think together about our lives, experiences, needs, differences, and goals.

knowledge, communities, work, and efforts for change. We envision a trans philosophy conference as a place to share these thoughts in a spirit of dialogue and collaboration. We welcome presentations from across theoretical approaches, disciplinary boundaries, and academic divides that engage with trans experiences and perspectives.

We will accept both individual and group proposals for presentations. This year, we will be conducting a hybrid conference to include options for both meeting in person and for joining online. The Thinking Trans Trans Thinking Conference is the longest running conference series on [01:05:00] trans philosophy and trans theory.

If you're interested in putting in your proposal, Please do so. Look up Lafayette Trans Thinking Conference 2025 and I'm sure Google will provide you the link. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact our Instagram page at transmasculinepodcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you.

Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight and wisdom. Expertise and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good

Kai: job today,

Jackal: Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai.

Kai: Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before.

the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one [01:06:00] priority.

Jackal: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids.

Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community.

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw

Jackal: up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. We are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot.

So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside entity.

Kai: Remember, if you're interested in sharing your [01:07:00] story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know.

Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. You can find us on Instagram, Transmaskingpodcast, on X, formerly Twitter, At podcast stealth on YouTube stealth, the trans masculine podcast, and be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast.

com. Thank you for joining us.