Jesse

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Jesse was born and raised - and still lives - in the Virginia hills known as the Appalachians. The when and where of Jesse's trans coming of age story, was not an environment that supported gender fluidity or genderqueerness. Most of the Appalachian people still see things in binaries. Black White. Male Female, or at the very least Butch Femme. Jesse was featured in the YouTube series “Climbing Mountains” by Trans ilient featuring Trans Appalachians' stories. Jesse identifies as male, but also relates to the genderqueer, non binary and feels that maybe if he was born twenty years later his path would have been different, but he is happy with his own path and journey.

Jesse Final

Jackal: [00:00:00] So first I just want to say happy Lesbian Visibility Week. Uh, was part of the Dyke community myself and have a lot of Dyke friends that I love and adore. And just want to wish you all well and happy Pride.

Kai: Yes. Yeah. Me too. And me too. Happy pride, everybody. Happy, happy lesbian visibility week. And we also want to shout out the Black Trans Advocacy Coalition. They are having their annual conference and awards and gala. It's it's in April. It's coming up on April 23rd to the 28th. To find out more information, go to blacktrans.

Kai: org backslash backslash conference.

Jackal: Backslash, not backsplash.

Kai: Backslash. Yeah, that was me. We just want to wish everybody, a really good conference. , the BTAC, they do a lot of really good work for the community. They provide resources and jobs and support and mentoring to, trans men and women of color. I also want to shout out a podcast that I've been listening to and [00:01:00] hopefully we'll have Shawn Aaron on our podcast, but it's called dem boys podcast.

Kai: I am delighted every time I listen to one of his episodes. His podcast is a show to elevate the voices of trans men of color. And he, He does that. He interviews trans men of color and talks about the different intersectionalities and nuances and he shares a lot about his own personal experience during season one, his upbringing.

Kai: He's very, very personally, he's a great storyteller. He brought on a guest who's top surgery. He funded through his nonprofit. Yeah. So Demboys Inc is his, nonprofit and Sean Aaron is his name. He talks about his naming story which is a really sweet story. You would love it, Jackal.

Jackal: Mm.

Kai: go to check out Demboy's podcast, D E M B O I S podcast. It's a podcast that amplifies trans men of color voices. It's a great podcast. Shout out to [00:02:00] Sean Aaron.

Jackal: Thank you. Hey, just, uh, It was a D E M B O I S? Okay. Thank you.

Kai: Yeah,

Jackal: I and Y sound the same. They rhyme. So, I just wanted to double

Kai: they do. And I, I don't enunciate well, the more I edit, the more I realize that I really don't enunciate well, I have a lazy mouth,

Jackal: Ha, lazy mouth.

Kai: I do.

Jackal: I'm telling your wife. Ha, ha, ha. Just kidding. Just

Kai: little obscene,

Jackal: It is supposed to be obscene. That's who I am. Um, hey, I just wanted to say also for people who want to go to the BTAC, conference and gala, it is in Dallas, Texas. If you can get yourself there, that would be awesome.

Jackal: I do think that they have, Scholarships and things like that, but I don't know, it's pretty close to the date. So I don't know if you can get anything, but, plan for it for next year. If you can't go this year.

Kai: definitely. And they accept donations. If folks feeling or feeling flush and want to [00:03:00] share, uh, donations, they definitely do that. So shout out to, uh, everyone organizing to the organizers, to BTAC and to all the attendees.

Kai: Jackal and I want to remind our listeners that we have a new member section. We want to thank those like Emory, Harold, Taylor, Matt, and Alex who have become members. Our member section offers bonus questions, features trans masculine pioneers no longer with us, and hilarious personal stories by our volunteer extraordinaire, Adam.

Kai: Here's another teaser.

Adam: Anyway, the story I wanted to tell today is a pretty familiar one in the land of trans masc ridiculousness, in that it centers on a misplaced dick. So, as I mentioned, part of my whole midlife trans epiphany involved blowing up my 13 year marriage, which in turn meant that I needed to sell my house, which I'm actually still in the process of doing.

Adam: And I have two kids, and my ex and I split custody of them, but point being, kids live here in this house 50 percent of the time, and as such my house frequently looks like a tornado of glitter and crayons just ripped right through it. So, anytime the broker wants to bring prospective [00:04:00] buyers by, I have to do a frenzied power clean of the house to make it look halfway presentable.

Adam: So, the other day, the broker calls and says he has some folks who want to see it, and I do the frenzied power clean and clear everyone out of the house. I come home a couple hours later after the showing, feeling extremely proud of myself for the manic level of cleaning efforts, and then notice that I manage to leave a giant, hyper realistic, quite veiny dick in the sink.

Adam: Yeah, so after having the requisite shame spiral of crippling embarrassment, I text the broker, I believe it was just a string of fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, with like a thousand apologies after, and then I chose that moment to out myself as trans to him, since that seemed like the logical thing to do.

Adam: He being a grown up who is extremely focused on making his commission, replied with something to the effect of lol, all good, I've seen worse, and said that he'd actually noticed it in time to conceal it before the buyer saw it. Which, of course, made me wonder whether that meant he had picked it up and moved it somewhere and then moved it back?

Adam: Or maybe he just threw a [00:05:00] towel over it or something? These are the questions that keep me up at night, wondering whether my broker has touched my dick. We also accept donations, and we want to thank Kida and Evan for their donations. The 4 a month. So go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up now. We don't wanna be gatekeepers, so if you feel like you can't afford $4 a month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com.

Adam: Consider buying a T-shirt while you're on our website. Or if you want to be cool like Adam. We're always looking for volunteers and we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Kai: Today's interview is with Jesse. Jesse was born and raised and still lives in the Virginia Hills known as the Appalachians.

Kai: The when and where of Jessie's trans coming of age story was not an environment that supported gender fluidity or gender queerness. Most of the Appalachian people still see things in binaries, black, white, male, [00:06:00] female. Or at the very least which femme. Jesse was featured in the YouTube series, climbing mountains by transilient featuring trans Appalachian stories. Jesse's identifies as male, but also relates to the gender queer non-binary and feels that maybe if he were born 20 years later, his path would have been different. But he's happy with his own path and journey.

Jackal: Hey, we're here with Jesse. Welcome back to stealth, a trans masculine podcast. Jesse has reached out to us from the. What I say Appalachians, but he says Appalachian. So tell us a bit about yourself, Jesse. That's exciting.

Jesse: So my part of Appalachia is Southwest Virginia , and I'm 46. And I am married and I have a daughter and I worked in the mental health field doing community mental health support and psychosocial day program for about 10 [00:07:00] years. And. For the past two years, I have been working for a company that manufactures copy machines and I work in a warehouse and I deliver copy machines.

Jesse: And it's great. I'm much happier doing that kind of work. It is much less stressful and I don't take any paperwork home.

Jackal: Nice. Nice. How did you learn about transmasculine identities?

 I'm not entirely sure how it came across my radar at first. After college, which would have been, after 1999, I came back to Roanoke and there were a couple of guys that were transitioning and I started to make friends with them. And I. identified as butch at the time, but I didn't really I didn't really know any [00:08:00] transmasculine identity, you know, language or, or, or concepts really until after college.

Jackal: And you said that was around 1999 or about what

Jesse: Yeah, 1999, 2000.

Jackal: So how did you begin your transition?

Jesse: So, I was doing counseling and I wound up doing counseling for for a lot of PTSD from being bullied. And my counselor was very into like, mindfulness and meditation and body work. And. I had had this big breakthrough, where I had kind of, I realized that I had gotten through that bullying exPerry'sence by really separating myself from my body, because my body was never safe. And that breakthrough was sort of coming, coming back into my body, really. And my My posture changed. You know, I was, you know, standing taller. It was, it was a really [00:09:00] transformative experience for me to know how deep that PTSD ran and how much it had been stored in my body. And I I didn't notice I was starting to sort of hunch over again and I was kind of going backwards a little bit, just in terms of being comfortable in my body.

Jesse: And what came to pass was that I got my body back as a result of doing that sort of therapy. And it was the wrong body. And I didn't know that

Jackal: I see. I

Jesse: until I had done that work you know, I became aware of boyish lesbians. Butch lesbians, in, in high school, I mean, I started identifying as a lesbian in my freshman year of high school.

Jesse: And that was a way for me to sort of understand my masculinity, which was a relief to, to have some sort of framework to understand myself. But doing that therapy work really [00:10:00] sort of blew the doors open on to really what was happening

Jackal: So what did you have to do? Like, what steps did you have to take in, in your area? Was it different than any other part of the, the country or, or was it the same? Like you had to see a counselor or you had to like, what did you do?

Jesse: well, after listening to several podcast, I, I can say that I feel like it was different. I, I already had a counselor, of course, who I've been doing this therapy work with, and she was actually not supportive of my new air quoted trans identity. She she thought that it was a sign of more, like, dysfunction on my part.

Jesse: And of course, this is, this is during the time of, you know, if you are transgender, then you have a mental illness,

Jackal: Right.

Jesse: right? So, even though there's a lot about her that was great, I think she was still in that framework.

Jackal: Right.

Jesse: I was still in her mind. So I separated from [00:11:00] her and I had to work really hard to find any counselor that was willing to write the letter for me to get hormones And in this area once I had that letter, there was no one nearby that did it. There was one gynecologist that I knew of that other guys had seen and she was two hours away. And I eventually went to her. I tried a couple of other doctors more locally. One doctor flat out said that he. Didn't agree with it and couldn't morally agree to do it.

Jackal: wow.

Jesse: So that, you know, we were in the period of a doctor just being able to decide that they weren't going to even though we're this time period that I was in, there was a, you [00:12:00] know, a universal standard, there was a Harry Benjamin standard. It was. It was clear cut that even if I did have a mental illness called gender identity disorder, that facilitating my transition was the way to treat it. But yet this doctor still refused to do it.

Jackal: Right. Right. Right. Right. Did you get chest surgery?

Jesse: I didn't get that until 2012, 2013. So, I wore a binder for like 10 years.

Jackal: And again, probably because it was hard to find somebody or, or

Jesse: It was working for somebody. Of course, nothing was covered by insurance. I really didn't have the means to travel. And when I had it done, there was actually a local plastic surgeon that had started doing them and I was maybe this guy's second, third, fourth chest surgery. And the, the price was, you know, reasonable. By then I was with [00:13:00] my now wife and we took out a care credit card and we charged it

Kai: Can I ask a question just to follow up on this? How well informed were you at the time about maybe what you wanted, what was available, kind of techniques, things like that back then

Jesse: as far as, as far as surgery goes,

Kai: your body.

Jesse: I was, I was pretty, I felt well informed. I, there were options to see other people's surgery outcomes and different techniques. And in fact, when I went to go see this plastic surgeon, I was right on the line between double double incision and then like.peri.

Kai: Yeah.

Jesse: And and he kind of left it up to me. And so I decided to go with peri. You know, he felt, he felt like I was able to make that decision. And I did too.

Kai: Did you have a sense of how well informed your [00:14:00] surgeon was now that, since he was new at it? Did he connect with other plastic surgeons or?

Jesse: I can't really remember if I had been able to see his results or not. I feel like maybe I knew one of the guys that had seen him. And it was like, You know, in person with him, he was able to just like lift up a shirt and say, here's, you know, here's what it looked like. Once I realized that I was even a candidate for peri, that kind of changes how I would feel about the outcome because, you know, with, with double incision, there, there is so much about the sculpting and the quality of the incisions themselves and the, you know, stitches and things like that.

Jesse: Perry's was much easier, I did feel very very well informed. As far as the doctor goes, unfortunately, you know, it's one of those, it was one of those situations where this is kind of my only chance. I have to, I have to go with this guy and you know, hope that he's pretty [00:15:00] good.

Jesse: He, he was well respected for the plastic surgery. He did have a big practice. So I, he did have that going for him. He was well established.

Jackal: Good. I do have a follow up question as well. It sounds like it was really a struggle from start to finish. So how did you get through it? Like, you know, you said like in this. Time you met your wife and things like this, but like what kind of support did you have?

Jackal: Like how did you get through this? Was it just all on your own fortitude?

Jesse: So Roanoke is a very interesting town. It's not, I mean, it's, it's a decent sized city, but if you go about an hour in any direction, it gets very rural. And. Roanoke has always been the town where rural queer people come to the [00:16:00] big city to find their we're about an hour away from Virginia Tech, which is a big college town, which is, you know, fairly liberal.

Jesse: But Roanoke is, has a very large queer community for its location and its size. When I started to meet trans guys, there were, we would all kind of get together and there were maybe, 12, 15, 20 of us, all at the same time, which for this area was, a lot.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jesse: I felt then.

Jesse: And I feel now it was a lot because that's a quality of of Roanoke. And I suspect that all throughout. Appalachia, there are those little pockets where people just kind of congregate. And so I had a lot of support. It was, it was difficult because I was thinking about [00:17:00] this prior to meeting with you all, and I came up with the term that there was a lot of like resource guarding, and I don't know if you all ever experienced this, but,

Jackal: explain please.

Jesse: so there were There were a couple of times where, you know, all of us were trying to make this happen and all of us were, you know, sharing information and trying to get it to happen.

Jesse: And there were a couple of times where one of us would, convince their PCP, or they would find a doctor, and that doctor would agree to, sign off on their hormones and monitor them, but nobody else.

Jackal: Hmm.

Kai: That happened in Seattle too. There was an endocrinologist that. Took a, a certain number of trans folks, and that was it, and nobody else, and then capped it, and it was, there were, it was all word of mouth, and it was like, if you could get in, you could see this certain person, yes, for sure.

Jesse: yeah, so this was not even that the doctor [00:18:00] was capping, but just that this one guy had just through, you know, personality and tenacity and building a relationship, either creating a relationship or they already had one,

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Jesse: this one doctor would do it for them. And, you know, it happened that, you know, that guy would say like, I, I can't tell you, I can't tell you who I wish I could.

Jesse: You know, but I, I can't he, he had to protect his resource and he didn't want to, you know, piss off his doctor

Kai: Yeah,

Jesse: by having, you know, a bunch of trans guys suddenly calling his office and saying, Ooh, Ooh, you know, me too, me too. And that was, it was understandable because we were happy for each other, but it was also looking back on it, you know, really fucked up.

Jesse: And.

Jackal: Yeah. [00:19:00] Frustrating.

Jesse: was really frustrating.

Kai: The doctors are putting us in a position also because of their discomfort for a host of reasons of not wanting to be known as the trans doctor, the one that will hormones or do all the sex change operations and things like that. They're just, keeping it between their patient themselves, but that puts us in a really. You're raising a lot of ethical issues about care, refusing care not wanting to provide care for fear of something,

Jackal: Creating division in our own community.

Kai: I know. It's like you luck out because you happen to have a very charming personality and your doctor said, yes, this one time

Jackal: And all your other brothers resent you because you're the one that with the resource and they're not

Jesse: Yeah, I don't I don't remember a lot of strong feelings of resentment that really created divisions in, in our little group. I do remember some feelings of like, Oh, damn, I wish that was me, or feeling sorry for yourself for awhile, most of us the ones that I really remember, all of us [00:20:00] guys were, we were rooting for each other and we all were in all the same boat.

Jesse: And so we, we couldn't hold it against,

Jackal: right,

Jesse: know, a success, held it against somebody else too much.

Jackal: Understood. Understood. So Jesse, how do you think that your social standings, race, class, geographic location, sexual identity impacted your ability to transition your fears about transitioning, anything like that?

Jesse: So socioeconomically I was, I had a, a middle class upbringing and I think that my my education both of my parents have a medical background. I think that I was better set than some other folks for being able to navigate the medical system and being able to advocate for myself and I don't know how to put it and to use language that made me convincing,

Jackal: Yeah. No, [00:21:00] that all makes perfect sense. Yes. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jesse: I, I definitely have passing privilege. I am five foot 10. And hormones were kind to me. So passing privilege. Also helped a lot in certainly once I was able to be on hormones, being able to advocate for myself as a trans person in other situations and be air quote, believable. There was at that time in this area, there was a very narrow path of being trans. Very, very hetero centered, very, you know, passing focused.

Kai: Can you tell us more about that, Jesse? what were some of the things you were told about how to live your life back

Jesse: It was the, the message from the, the culture in general, and then also somewhat in, within my circle of, you know, [00:22:00] you transition to disappear into regular society. , I, I can remember, and this doesn't make me look very good, but it, it was of the times there was a guy that was here in Roanoke and I think he was here for school, but he wasn't going to stay, but he was he self ID'd as femme and he I don't know what he would have called himself then, but he was attracted to other men , dated within, , trans men circles and he was not particularly masculine. And there was, , I don't think that he was treated that well. And I didn't regard him very kindly because, he he didn't fit the mold. I didn't think he was invalid, but again, that sort of guarding of resources and guarding of identity and policing each other. That growing up the way that we did and coming up the way that we did forced upon us. That,

Kai: there wasn't a lot of representation back then either. You know, like there weren't [00:23:00] images of trans men with each other, T for T. There weren't images of trans men with other gay men, you know?

Jackal: Or femme transmen

Kai: yeah, exactly.

Jackal: You're coming out of a femme body or a femme, AFAB body at least, and you're not shooting for a femme masculine identity. I don't think I've ever in our experience in Seattle, I don't think even there, which was pretty liberal, like,

Kai: Yeah. Yeah, no, and I think you're right. It kind of rocks the boat to have more femme presenting trans guys. I think some people did, I will go so far as to say people question whether or not they were trans enough.

Jesse: right. And, and, and there was kind of this feeling of you know, don't make the rest of us look bad,

Kai: Yeah, yeah, or an illegitimate, , and it wasn't of a certain time. I won't deny that it probably happens now. And so I just want to say again, like our show is about representation and about the embracing the [00:24:00] entirety of our community and no matter how you choose to identify.

Kai: So thank you so much for sharing some of the complexities of that. I'm really, really interested in the geography, you've run into geographical barriers, in terms of access to care due to just distance and proximity to large cities. But how did you guys find each other? There's 20 of you trans guys around and how in the heck did you manage to do that?

Jesse: let me, I'm going to answer that with a question. One of the things that I really miss about community and finding community is, It feels like back then that it was it was exciting and it was okay to clock each other. And I know it would you only clock and it feels less that way now, you know, when I'm out in public and I see especially a young person that is, that You know, I feel pretty confident is on the transmasculine spectrum, not necessarily on hormones or transitioning or [00:25:00] even trying to pass.

Jesse: It doesn't feel okay anymore to be like, Hey, me too. You know?

Kai: how come?

Jesse: It feels like, well, I'll, I'll say that that is somewhat supported by what I have seen people say in, you know, FTM groups that I'm part of when that topic comes up, the people don't like to be called out that also, it also in general feels more like people who are It's a invalidation of their masculinity because there's obviously something about them that looks trans. Okay. So LiveJournal existed. We were all on LiveJournal. Yeah, LiveJournal. I feel like all the interviews that you all do, I think At the part of each one we all have to give our old LiveJournal names and see if we remember each other, but but [00:26:00] so, you

Kai: on a need to know basis.

Jesse: right, so, you know, LiveJournal, LiveJournal existed but in terms of seeing another trans person out in public, I mean, it was so, it was so rare, and it was so exciting because, yeah, I certainly felt like, you know, an island and to see another, another trans guy, you know, You know, out in the world, it was, it was exciting to see somebody else.

Jesse: And I had a strong enough feeling of community that once I, I kind of felt secure in myself,

Jesse: if I saw another trans person, there was always a part of me that wanted to make sure that they were okay, that they knew that the rest of us existed. So I would want to, you know, reach out for, for that purpose.

 Our bonus questions touch on this a lot, just I'm plugging our bonus questions. So [00:27:00] we talk a lot about like, how would you like to be approached? How would you approach another person if you suspected or knew that they were transmasc? And I think I'm just going to share really quickly when I was, I, when I was just starting out as baby Kai.

Kai: I, I, And I had changed my name legally, I'm working, and I hadn't started taking testosterone yet, so I was a masculine tomboy looking person. But I had told everybody at work, and there was this guy that was so cute that came in, I was a barista at Starbucks.

Kai: I was Sure, he was trans, but he wasn't from there, because I worked in a tourist area, worked in Pioneer Square, and he came in, and man, this guy was hot, and I was like, oh my god, I think he's trans, and I'm like, making his drink, you know, sashaying around, like,

Jesse: Huh.

Kai: this guy, and I remember thinking, oh my god, I want to ask him so badly if he's trans, you know, because I knew he was at least some variation of queer, and I remember I had a break coming up, and the guy, like, had his coffee, and then he left, and I was like, I'm going on my break, and I was like, What am I going to do?

Kai: I'm going to go track him down and [00:28:00] say, Hi, my name is Kai. I think you're really cute. Are you trans

Jackal: just made you a coffee.

Kai: know. I know. I made

Jackal: was my phone number.

Kai: That's exactly. I didn't want to hit on him so much as be him and like emulate that, you know, cause he was a hot gay trans guy with a leather jacket?

Kai: So I think, , whoever he was out there, I think that's really, , really hot. But anyway, I, I appreciate, you know, is really challenging out in the world. As, as time moves on for us with the evolution of hormones and different variations and flavors of trans and trans mask, how do we address each other?

Kai: How do we connect with each other when we run across each other or suspect that we are running across our, our people, , how do we do? Should we do that? You're right, Jesse. I think, I think that's a really good point. I, I have some reservations about it because I'm afraid I'm going to fuck up and make an assumption and, and offend someone or out someone or, and I, I certainly have been put in that position. [00:29:00] So you're raising some really interesting points. And I'm going to just ask you now. What would you like to say to newer trans and non binary folks?

Jesse: Oh gosh. I hadn't thought about that. I feel old enough that the, the technical aspects of, , how to like how to transition, how to access hormones, where to go, things like that. I feel a little bit out the loop. Only, and I'll asterisk that by saying that, I am still on, , Facebook. I'm still plugged into communities where I can on other people talking about that. So, you know, I, I do know some things, but not firsthand anymore. I would say, I think the I think the most important thing that I would say is that the, the words that we use to describe ourselves, things like trans mask and non binary and genderqueer and so on and so forth it is [00:30:00] very easy and very attractive to try to figure out which one that you are.

Jesse: And those words are really great for being able to make yourself somewhat understood to other people. They work as shorthand, but the full, the full expression of who any of us are as a gendered person.

Jesse: will, will never fit within those terms. I like that more and more terms are being created for gender. I like that people are splitting hairs even stepping, you know, one step away and saying, you know, I'm gender queer, but I'm not [00:31:00] gender queer like that. I think that, I think that that's good because I, I truly do believe that as many men as there are in the world and you're getting into the hundreds of millions, there are precisely that many ways to be a man and no term is going to, catch everybody I think that what I would say to anyone younger who, I guess, who is, Working on this stuff is that don't be hung up too much on those terms. They are useful. They are understood by a wide group of people. You can find people that are like you, but they will never suffice to really explain who you are and to not even try.

Jackal: Thank you so much. So, hey, our, our podcast is called stealth. And so we ask all of our guests, what does stealth mean to you?

Jesse: I think stealth is a moving target [00:32:00] constantly. Moving target

Jackal: What's that mean? What's that mean?

Jesse: that it's, it's kind of going back to what I just said that there, there is there is no really clear definition of it. Stealth changes situation to situation and person to person and day to day, I think I have heard other guests use this term. And I've heard you all use the term low disclosure, and I really like that better,

Jackal: Have you ever lived a life of low disclosure?

Jesse: oh yeah, yeah, sure, I mean, my life now , I've kept most of my friends, and so, you know, they all know my wife's family does not know so a little bit of background, so. It was, it was funny as we were talking about, you know, invisibility and, you know, the way that we were all taught to transition and who we were supposed to come, who we were supposed to be.

Jesse: My wife jokes that I, I, I hit the trans guy jackpot because my [00:33:00] wife is cis. And she is straight and she's 11 years younger than I am. So, once upon a time I, I would have been, like, exactly what a transgender person was supposed to do, transition and disappear into heteronormativity.

Kai: Mm.

Jesse: And So, you know, my, my wife's family does not know that is likely going to change.

Jackal: How will that change? How will you handle it? How would you disclose today to somebody who doesn't know whether that be her family or doctors or whatever, what do you do?

Jesse: see, again, moving target, it would, it's, it's even your two examples, it would be different. My

Kai: is why we have a whole podcast about

Jesse: That's why you have a whole

Kai: all the time.

Jesse: So I'll, I'll talk a little bit about my my family situation. So, and this actually is very, very new. I'm not going to go too much into it [00:34:00] because my wife and I haven't really talked about it.

Jesse: But my father in law died this past Wednesday. So that's,

Jackal: I'm so sorry to hear that,

Jesse: well, thank you. So that's I know this will air, Months from now. So, right now is Sunday. So he died four days ago. And my wife and I had, had talked about that it was possible that he would not take the news of my being trans that well. And so that's, that's about all I'll say about that. So the reason I said that that's going to change is because he has passed away. And one of the things that is, to be considered as my daughter, my daughter does not know that I'm trans.

Kai: Does not know.

Jesse: she does not know.

Kai: How did you guys come to that decision?

Jackal: but she's four, right?

Jesse: She's six.

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. Talk to us about that. I don't know, a lot of people have kids and don't think about parenting or co parenting at all. There's a hope, there may be some more thought that goes into it because [00:35:00] we're trans. Talk to us a little bit about how you made that decision as parents to, to about disclosing or not disclosing to your kid.

Jesse: My, what we decided was that there is nobody that truly knows the story of how my daughter was conceived. Quite frankly, we have lied to people when they have asked

Jackal: Oh, well.

Jesse: Even, even the people that, that know that I'm trans. Because we felt very strongly that other people should not know before our daughter knew.

Jesse: I also felt very strongly that when my daughter was told that I'm trans, and also the story of who provided one half of her, you know, genes, That I did not want to send her the message that it was a secret or that it was something to hide, which circles back around to issues of disclosing to my wife's side of the family [00:36:00] and when to do that. So those two things have been in a progressively rickety balance because as my daughter gets older she is more likely to be exposed to, you Talk about what boy bodies and girl bodies look like in a very binary impression of that. And inadvertently my daughter realizing without our assistance that daddy's body looks different.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jesse: So,

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jesse: it was mostly a decision just based on a couple of principles. The first about that nobody else would know how she was conceived before she did. And then needing to make that, age appropriate. And then the second, my feeling very strongly about sending the message that being trans is not a secret and it's [00:37:00] not shameful having the conversation with her about, bodies being private, which supports the general message about, having a child and, issues about, you know, safety and sexual predators and, you know, what's private about a body and, and so on and so forth.

Jesse: And as she's gotten older it feels more of a pressure to start to tell her and

Jesse: I, there's not really a great answer about how we've decided. We, other than those two principles leading us I, I will also say there's I guess a little. Practical thing is that my wife's parents live in Illinois. That's where my wife and it was also very important to us not to, not to disclose to them and then have to, and then be 12 hours away again, because I think [00:38:00] that disclosing that to them is a ongoing conversation and we didn't want to disclose and then.

Jesse: Not be able to stay in very close contact to continue talking about it, to continue having, this is going to sound more forceful than I mean, but you know, forcing them to remain in contact with me where they can't just, you know, forget

Jackal: Yeah, engaged.

Jesse: yeah, engage. There you go. That's a much kinder word. Thank you,

 Can I jump in for a sec? I want to thank you for discussing some really deeply personal topics. You know, matters in particular, like your relationship and you're really important decisions about parenting. These decisions are, I think you've used word moving target. And I think as your daughter ages and you make these decisions and people move on in the world or move away or [00:39:00] die,

Kai: you're going to grapple with those. I think as long as we live, that's an issue. Like we have to deal with disclosure our entire lives, and issues of disclosure. And, I would love to ask you so much more about what are the concerns you have about people's reactions?

Kai: Suppose they did know, right. , and suppose your daughter blurted out something about your body being different, that'd be a whole nother show.

Jesse: I'm perfectly happy to do a part two because, you know, I, I mean, shoot, obviously I am because I contacted you and said, Hey, let me be on your

Kai: we're going to bookmark that Jesse, because we do bring people back. So maybe we're going to hold you to that. Okay. So let me move on to the next question we're going to talk a little bit about some milestones in your life. It sounds like you've had plenty, you've had a daughter, you've been married, things like that.

Kai: What are some of the important milestones? And, and times in your life that you'd like to share, just a couple.

Jesse: Well, we can talk about my wife and I getting married. So. When I had top surgery one, one of the things that happened back [00:40:00] then and maybe now is if you had sexual reassignment surgery, you know, capitalized letters you could get your, documents changed and you could be mailed. my wife and I were getting married same sex marriage was not legal. So I had to be mailed for us to be married. My, the plastic surgeon that did the surgery, he was aware of this whole letter business and so on and so forth. And they wrote a letter and they said that I, I had whatever language, , chest reconstruction or something like that. Well, in Virginia, that wasn't good enough. You had to have bottom surgery. So, actually, I, I went back to their office and I said could you redo this and use more vague language? And I didn't say that my goal was to fake out this [00:41:00] Commonwealth of Virginia so that I could get married, but it wasn't my goal. But what what I did say was that, I was not I was not really comfortable with some stranger being able to read this letter and being able to visualize what my body looked like under my clothes.

Kai: absolutely. And, and back then, in order to get a passport, you had to, they meant by what they used to call SRS or sexual reassignment surgery. Now they call it gender affirming surgery or other, other ways. But, but what they meant by that was lower surgery. And then very explicitly what that was. So I think, in community sharing less concrete information and just label gender affirming surgery or sexual reassignment surgery versus detailing the actual ins and outs that, that, that is an in community thing. Right. And it's a way to work with a system that is restrictive and honestly invasive.

Kai: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So,

Jesse: I was going to say, yeah, and you know, gatekeeping, I mean, gatekeeping, who is, who is valid, who is trans, who's really a man now, all [00:42:00] these conditions laid upon us by outsiders.

Jackal: Right. Right, right, right. Well, cisgender men think that the only thing that defines them as a man is their penis, right? So if transgender men don't have one, then they're not real men. But that's not true. We all know that. So, hey what do you think about your future? You're fairly young right now.

Jackal: You're only in your forties, but aging as a transgender man, as a transgender person is a concern for us, for a lot of us. So what are your thoughts about your future? What are your thoughts about aging concerns about aging?

Jesse: I, you know,

Jackal: Maybe it's too far away.

Jesse: it's, it's not I, I can tell you this one of the things that brings me a lot of joy is watching young transgender people being able to start their transition early and having a lot of community, not [00:43:00] having a lot of turmoil in their life,

Jesse: are automatically more not automatically, but better able to become supportive if they weren't already. There's more resources for parents to become supportive because I have to admit, I do have a lot of grief about how much I was held back from starting my real life.

Kai: You know, it's interesting when you were talking about your experience with your past therapist and how you'd worked on a lot of Issues related to trauma, and then your, what was, what your body was holding, and then the dysphoria that you described, and then at that point your therapist not really buying it, or not being, and, and, and you opted to move on, and I think that's a really powerful statement to make as a trans person, as a [00:44:00] person, is that you have options about yourself, your, your, your health care, and you weren't buying it, you know, you weren't, you weren't gonna, you weren't gonna You're gonna settle for that and hold yourself back even more, but I'm sorry that the profession did that.

Kai: , and you're very thoughtful about how you live your life, and I hear that sadness and grief that you're describing about being held back.

Jesse: I mean, I, I am, I mean, I. My, my twenties were I got a bachelor's degree but my twenties were just rife with dealing with what I had been through dealing with still being a trans person and feeling in danger in my community. You know, sidebar, there, there was a there was a shooting at a gay bar in Roanoke in 2001.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jesse: And, you know, that was incredibly traumatic for the whole community. We only had like two gay bars and there was a shooting at one of them. [00:45:00] And you know, my thirties. I was still, I can look back on it now I was still kind of like kicking around and dealing with you know, I don't know who I want to be when I grow up and, and so on and so forth.

Jesse: And so now I'm, I'm 46 and my wife and I tried to get pregnant before we got pregnant with our, our daughter. I'm 46 and I have a six year old and she is, I mean, she is just, she's just sunshine. I mean, she is amazing little girl. And I do have a lot of grief that I'm an old parent and in a big cosmic sense, yes, you know, if I had had a child earlier, I may not have had that child and so on and so forth, but, but still, I wish.

Jesse: That I had grown up, and come of [00:46:00] age, and understood being trans, or even trans masculine identities, much earlier. And that it had just been a part of my life like all the other parts of my life.

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jackal: of our interview. So we would like to ask if there's any questions that we didn't ask that you think we should have any last final words of wisdom

Jesse: I'll go back and talk a little bit more about my about my marriage. So I in talking with that plastic surgeon, I think the third draft of the letter that I got was, it just said, you know, has completed a surgery for, you know, sexual reassignment, right?

Kai: hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jesse: and in Virginia, you have to, like, to change your.

Jesse: To change your birth certificate. So that's what I had to [00:47:00] do. It wasn't just my license and my. So security card, I had to change my birth certificate. And so I sent everything off to Richmond, which is the capital and like, we waited and we waited. And my wife and I wound up having to go to Richmond just days before our wedding to, to actually like sit in the office and get it completed and then, and then come back with the, the documents.

Jesse: And so that like, that's the kind of. Insanity that, you know, we, we wound up having to deal with,

Jackal: and overcame. Mm

Jesse: and, and overcame. It's true. We, we overcame. And I don't know if there's, you know, is anything else I want you to like, there's so many other like little things about like the, you know, the ages that we are and you know what we had to deal with.

Jesse: I was talking with my therapist. Just the other [00:48:00] day about like, even something as simple as this is funny, but do you guys remember the old paper wrappers that used to be on tampons? You remember those?

Jackal: hmm.

Jesse: You take this, you'd rip the top off and then the string would come down.

Jackal: Mm hmm.

Jesse: I was talking with my therapist about like, that sound sounds like nothing else in the world.

Jesse: And that it was like being in a, being in a. a bathroom stall and it sounded like you were opening your mail, you know, sitting on the toilet and like just like wild stuff like that because, you know, packaging has changed and, you know, thank God and, you know, plastic wrappers aren't that much better. But, but even little things like that of, you know, stuff that we had to go through yeah, I mean it, it, at the time it seemed like such a telltale sound of not belonging in that bathroom.

Jesse: [00:49:00] Mm.

Kai: have to talk about bathrooms and, Jacqueline and I are the same age, but when I was in seventh grade and we went, we had our first locker room experience and we're seeing other girls who had started their period with pads and with little harness type things.

Jesse: Huh.

Kai: I don't think it was before tampons came around, but it was certainly like newer in the game, you know, and I remember, Oh my God, that felt so awful to me to see that or imagine having that between my legs, which yeah, anyway, so thank you for

Jackal: Seventh graders weren't supposed to have tampons because that meant you were a slut.

Jesse: That's right.

Kai: There was misinformation about your hymen and

Jackal: Exactly.

Kai: and what that, all that stuff back then, but listen, Jesse, we, we really want to be respectful of your time, okay, and I know that you have to go and we love talking with you, we could talk to you for a lot longer, and we definitely will

Jesse: I could too, cause there's so many like little things like you asked me about like how I know how I came across like transmasculine [00:50:00] identities. One of the things that I thought about was, you know, when I was in like how I first learned about like boyish lesbians.

Jesse: Was, you know, that time period of 92, 93, there was a whole Bill Clinton presidency and the gays in the military. And I don't know if you all remember, but they were like suddenly a lot more like talk shows with, with gay people and especially like lesbians. And

Jackal: of trans people too. Like there

Jesse: well, yeah, that too, but, you know, at least, where I was, here in, in rural Southwest Virginia, there was no there weren't representations.

Jackal: Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, one of our guests, Cooper said that, I think it was Cooper, said that like his grandma she already kind of had an awareness of trans people. Gendered men because of Sarah Jessica Raphael, you know, like the talk show host, , Phil Donahue or something.

Jackal: It's like Oh, well, it's like, okay. Those things were super exploitative of, of our, of our bodies and our [00:51:00] identities. But, if it can bring me closer to my grandma, you know,

Jesse: Yeah. I mean, I, I probably still have VHS tapes where I taped like Jenny Jones and Ricky Lake and Sally, Jesse and Phil Don here I think are like, probably the top. Just, just to like see other people that looked like me. Speaking

Jackal: we're going to close up this part of it and we're going to move on to our bonus questions.

Jesse: Thank you guys for, for, for what you all are doing. I know it's not easy to do this as your other gig and it's time consuming, but I think it is it is really important for me. I've had a lot of good laughs listening to other people. Cause I'm like, Oh my God, me too. And I don't get that in any other way.

Jesse: And so it's it is a version of gender affirming that I would not find anywhere else.

Kai: Please stay in touch with us, please. And[00:52:00]

Jackal: really appreciate your kind words. Thank you so

Kai: thank you for sharing your story and for your

Jesse: You're welcome.

Kai: you.

Jackal: So that was sweet that Jesse reached out to us and became a guest on our show. What'd you think of the interview?

Kai: I'm really glad he reached out to us because he is right. We haven't had anybody from Appalachia, Appalachia. Now I'm overthinking it, Appalachia or Appalachia, we haven't had anybody from Virginia reach out to us. And I think his story is important because he represents a geographical region that we haven't heard from.

Kai: And I, I really think that that plays into my impression of him is that he is so gutsy. And he was very creative in finding care and finding community and managing all the different barriers that came up as he pursued care and took care of himself. And that's the thing that really came across and he's, he was part of a video. series, back in the day, which I think again, takes guts to do that in a rural area because [00:53:00] he didn't talk a lot about safety concerns, but holy cow,, if you stand out there, um, and he's, he's part of that. He shares his story. But he talks a lot more about his experience and I just think he's just a really gutsy guy.

Kai: How about you? What'd you think?

Jackal: Yeah, it's really interesting how he talks around things, right? Because you're right. Like he doesn't talk about the safety concerns or like any of that thing. He just talked about being bullied. Right. And then being in therapy about that. So you kind of glean that he's had trauma in his life around this, but.

Jackal: I mean, he's a success story. He's, it feels like he's a success story. So maybe he doesn't have to get into that. Like he did back in the day kind of thing. What really interested me was the family situation, and, not being out, To the six year old yet.

Jackal: Um, and the whole thing about quote unquote lying about how she was conceived, um, and you know, like her kind of not knowing how she was conceived. And he didn't get [00:54:00] into that specifically, I don't know how she was conceived,

Kai: Right.

Jackal: But that that's a very interesting thing. There's so many things in our lives as trans people that are, like, woven with discretion.

Jackal: There's all of these things. And I think that he was very thoughtful about how he is doing his life, wants to do his life, , what that means as far as his daughter, his wife, his wife's family, you know, all of those things. Um, it was a very interesting interview. And, I wish that there was more analysis of what it's like to be in Virginia, the Appalachia, as he calls them.

Jackal: The Appalachians, as my cousins in Kentucky call them,

Kai: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

Jackal: but that region, right? Because , like you have this idea of, uh, deliverance, right? And like, you know, backwater, backwoods people, um, which they're [00:55:00] not. Having people in Kentucky, having family in Kentucky There's all kinds of people. There's all kinds of people in Virginia. He himself comes from a middle class background. But it is interesting because, I think of it as a more conservative area and a very rural area compared to like Seattle where we came out, right? Mm

Kai: Yeah. I think his, his decision around parenting and disclosure about how his daughter came into the world and his disclosure about his being trans to his kid. Those are all really, really rich topics. And I think as gay, queer, trans folks, sometimes people have this sense of entitlement to know how did this happen?

Kai: How did you manage to do this? And we do that with each other too. It's like, well, how did you have a baby? together, what did you do, and it's like natural to be curious, but it also, I think it comes from this place where you shouldn't really ask that question. I think he's clearly been asked how it happens for him to not share it when, when asked, and I think that's a really [00:56:00] interesting, question as you consider bringing kids into the world as they grow up as they develop and, and understand what gender is and things like that and how that works with your parents and things.

Kai: So it was really interesting discussion. It reminds me a little bit about adoptees, like how do you tell a kid that you're adopted, and not have it seem like a bad thing

Jackal: totally.

Kai: anyway, I just, I thought that was really great. And I think geographically, I, I, I definitely think that's just in the fabric of who he is

Jackal: Totally. Yeah. Yeah, I kind of got it with like how careful he was talking and how he didn't have a Southern accent, but, uh, that slow and kind of deliberate way of communicating. Very, very culturally indicative, I think.

Kai: yeah, I think, I got a sense that he wants connection and he's also just really busy, you know? So the online, I think the online community is an invaluable resource for us and a way to connect and I'm glad we have [00:57:00] it and I'm glad that people can come and go as they please online.

Kai: And with a podcast, we appreciate when people comment and get in touch with us clearly. Cause that's why he's here. And at the same time, people can choose whether or not they let us in when they're, when they're podcast or,

Jackal: No, I mean, he, I was really flattered too about his like Facebook group and somebody mentioned us and it was just flattering. Thank you at all. The people who are listening, it's, amazing that we have an audience. Like I'm still surprised. I'm still surprised, but like, like you said, we filled this gap that, um, didn't even really know, knew existed. We just wanted to do it for ourselves.

Kai: When he was talking about disclosure, he was talking about that the discussion with his wife around whether or not to tell his in laws and wanting to be present because it might be part of an ongoing conversation, wanting to be to have a lot of time and personal like face to face conversations about that.

Jackal: [00:58:00] mm-Hmm mm-Hmm

Kai: of the things that came to my mind was, I don't, I mean, in some ways I think communicating from a distance, however that is, whether it's a letter or a text or a video like Lorne did, where, where you give people a little bit of chance, opportunity to, to process. away from you and say the things that spurt out their mouth right away, you know, and just sit with it.

Kai: A lot of times people just don't care as much as we think they don't need to really talk it through as much as we think, you know, and he knows his in laws better than I do. But that was what I was thinking. It's like a lot of people just don't really care as much as we do. It's like not a thing, and they may not want to talk about it, but, but he clearly, has a different experience and wants to be able to be responsive to people who he tells, that was an interesting thing

Jackal: I got the feeling again, based on part of the, his story, right? And part of this is in [00:59:00] the past, but it's still very present right now. Is that, um, moral, I don't agree with this stance. In his region. And so I hear what you're saying, but Lorne was on the West coast, right? It's like in this like liberal area.

Jackal: I sure he's in a conservative job or something, but

Kai: was in conservative red California. He was in the valley. So it

Jackal: yeah, I mean, but still it's California, I don't care how red California is, it's not comparative to, to red, Virginia,

Kai: I can tell you it's different for sure. You

Jackal: different, but it's, I don't think it's the same. I mean, anyways, like we could argue that like back and forth, whatever. But from, like you said, like he knows his in laws and from what I gleaned about that, there's this kind of like community supported, state supported, like moral obligation to be against this.

Jackal: Right. So it's interesting. Like you're totally right. Like people need, I [01:00:00] still think people do need a chance to kind of digest and process. Um, but I, I hear him when he says he doesn't want them to disengage from the conversation.

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. Really, really lots of things to think about. And that's one of the things I love about this job of ours, this volunteer gig is I leave each of our interviews and I'm thoughtful for days afterwards, and then we get to edit and listen to them again. And it just, it's very thought provoking as part of the process, so thanks for your, thanks for doing this

Jackal: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Kai: Yeah. And thanks to our lovely guest, Jesse.

Jackal: Yeah.

Jackal: Now it's time for Transponder. In today's Transponder segment, we want to shout out the upcoming BTAC conference and gala. In its 11th year, the National Black Trans Advocacy Conference and Awards Gala Is a distinct five day educational [01:01:00] and empowerment program event home to nearly 500 plus trans and gender nonconforming individuals, family, friends, community allies, and corporate partners from across the country who are focused on advancing black trans equality.

Jackal: Held in Dallas, Texas, April 23rd through the 28th, the Black Trans Advocacy Coalition celebrates trans joy, freedom, and victory. To register, go to blacktrans. org backslash conference. Or, if you have questions about the Black Trans Advocacy Conference, please call BTAC Client Services toll free at 855 825 7000.

Jackal: 6 2 4 7 7 1 5 from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM Central Standard time, Tuesdays through Thursdays. Again, that's 8 5 5 6 2 4 7 7 1 5. Or to register for the event, go to black trans.org/conference. Thank you to Kira [01:02:00] as always for rounding up this week's transponder. Trans joy moments. Stay positive out there. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact Kira at our Instagram page at transmasculinepodcast.

Jackal: We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests, who share their insight and their Expertise and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today, Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for listening to today's podcast.

Jackal: Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before. the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority.

Jackal: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. [01:03:00] Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories.

Jackal: We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms. We respond to feedback from our audience. And we will be accountable when we screw up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time.

Jackal: As we enter Season 4, we are getting better. But we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside entity.

Jackal: Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested [01:04:00] in volunteering, please let us know. Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. Help podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform.

Jackal: You can find us on Instagram, Transmaskingpodcast, on X, formerly Twitter, At podcast stealth on youtube stealth the trans masculine podcast and be sure to check out our website Transmasculinepodcast. com Thank you for joining us until next time You