Alexander

Alexander is a 41-year old Canadian transman and father from Toronto, where he currently lives with his wife, their two young children, and rescue dog. He began his transition as a teenager in the year 2000. 

An academic turned public servant, he holds a PhD in English and continues to contribute to Trans Studies. In his free time, he enjoys spending time outdoors hiking, canoeing, skiing and gardening, and is an avid reader. He is passionate about leadership and public service. 

Alex Bonus

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome back. We're excited to be entering our fourth season of Stealth a Transmasculine Podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. It's amazing to us that we are still going strong after two years and we'll be featuring our 50th episode this season.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to that, our stories are very often overlooked.

Kai: We want our audience to know that we [00:01:00] ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways.

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition.

Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to [00:02:00] health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy. We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Jackal: We want to give a shout out. Happy Asian heritage month. It's May now. We want to thank you to all of our trans men of Asian heritage for being our guests and happy Asian heritage month for everybody out there listening.

Kai: So Jackal, I haven't seen you in a while, unbeknownst to our listeners, we haven't been in the same studio for quite a while, and we've had several episodes backloaded and working on things, but we haven't actually talked in a while. So catch me up. How are you doing? What's new with you?

Jackal: I want you to go first. You took a few weeks off. What did you do in your break

Kai: Thanks for asking. Um, my job's still going really well. I'm very happy and it's keeping me busy for sure. I'm learning more about [00:03:00] bureaucracy in the state and things like that. Um,

Jackal: than you ever wanted to. No?

Kai: Yeah, I'm trying to think of it as it will serve me well in the future should I ever need to open up another program.

Kai: I'm learning a lot about different parts of state government. Thankfully, I'm really enjoying the personal interactions with the team I have. And then in my personal life, I've been trying to get outdoors more because in the Northwest, I don't know if you remember this, but March is really hard, March is dark and wet and we still had slush and cold days and it's really gray. Now with the longer days, I'm wanting to get outdoors more I've been trying to make the most of getting outdoors and getting a little bit ready to move my body again, things like that.

Kai: But other than that, just been baking.

Jackal: No, baking. We love the baking, Kai.

Kai: Yeah, yeah I'll shout out the volunteer organization that I volunteer for. It's called For Goodness Cakes, and they, started in L. A. This woman Made cakes for folks who [00:04:00] typically don't have cakes.

Kai: So young people who maybe have never had a birthday cake due to no fault of their own. Maybe they've had some changes in care. Maybe they've been in and out of placement or sometimes not everybody's cup of tea to make a cake. So they're involved with programs. You volunteer as a baker to bake a cake or cupcakes and they express preference in flavor and toppings and some of the get very specific about decorations.

Jackal: I want a unicorn and rainbows.

Kai: they do. Yeah. I just actually made one of those for, uh, for someone who is non binary. Yeah, it was really, really sweet, like a little 14 year old.

Kai: It's been fun. I've been doing that. Someone who you know is helping me decorate. I'm learning how to decorate cakes. It's met my baking goal of wanting to be a better cake maker because that's been really fun. And I'm learning to decorate a little bit.

Kai: That's the skinny on me and you've had a lot more bigger things happening for you,

Jackal: Yeah. We haven't really bantered in a while about our personal lives. A few months ago, [00:05:00] February, I started a new job. I relocated, I didn't just move within a city. I moved from one place to another, which was big. And a shout out to all my friends who helped support me in that because financially I wouldn't have been able to do It And, um,

Kai: It wasn't just you that moved.

Jackal: Oh, Yeah. I moved me and my four pets, so two dogs, two cats, had to ship them, there's all these weird rules on planes now after COVID, it was worth it. I have to say it was worth it.

Jackal: I love my job. I love the colleagues. The boss is super, the boss is super cool. , it really feels good to work in a non toxic environment. Like I don't remember. about my old job which hasn't been now for almost two years, but, it was very toxic and I worked in an extremely toxic environment for, a good eight years and stayed because of the paycheck.

Jackal: But, really now being in this position, [00:06:00] it. Just feels like, why the hell did I do that? For all of you who are in toxic work environments, leave.

Kai: I can really relate to that. Having experienced similar work environments in this new job, this job that I've had since July, same, I love my boss. There's no perfect job, and there's something to be said for a supervisor who you dig and who treats you with respect really appreciate that you have a job that you like in a place that you like, that's good

Jackal: Yeah. So, okay. So I have this weird thing that I'm gonna say. Um.

Kai: from you. Are you kidding?

Jackal: Well, this is like a little bit out there. People might not understand the reference, but I wouldn't say I'm into a lot of weird spirituality, but, I have my own kind of belief system and I grab from wherever resonates, so one of the places that I've been listening to lately is revisiting Rumi poetry. So Rumi was a Sufi whirling dervish and very [00:07:00] famous for his poetry and love poems. And the love really connects him to God, so I don't believe in God per se, but some of the poetry really resonates. And one of the poems that I revisited was called the Song of the Reed Flute. It's basically like the reed flute is ripped from the reed beds in order to be hollowed out and have these holes punched in it to make beautiful music. But really, if somebody really listens, they can also hear the lament of the reed flutes notes that's missing the reed bed, like wanting to go back to the reed bed.

Jackal: I've only been here a couple months, a few months, and I feel like the Reed flute, I feel like I'm making beautiful music in my job and there's a lot of amazing things happening. But I'm lamenting, my friends and, my place, and my real sense of belonging, where I was

Jackal: That's my little weird caveat

Kai: that's a [00:08:00] beautiful, a beautiful image. Enjoy it. I don't know, I mean, you had lived in this place for a decade. I grieve leaving Hawaii, even though I wasn't as connected to people there, in our community especially, but the place itself, and where I lived, and nature, it pains me.

Kai: I really miss it so much, and it was such a special place for me to be, and at the same time, I'm so glad I'm here and all that can be, I can feel really sad and miss it, but I just. Especially, I will say one of the things coming back to the Northwest where on the mainland now, our community is here and there are folks there, there's so many old friends that I know, and yes, we're old,

Kai: you and I are somewhat in the same region now, in the North.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: but Yeah.

Jackal: I mean, that's the thing, right? Like you moved back to a place where you had communities, you know, like friends that you have known for a long time. And I am once [00:09:00] again, in a new place and yes, we're, we're, relatively geographically closer than we were, but, , I've only been here a few months and, I'm almost 60 years old and it's hard to make friends like it's hard to, establish yourself and it's not that my colleagues aren't great and it's not like I haven't made a few connections, but I haven't spent one weekend with a new friend since I've arrived.

Jackal: And that's hard, right? I've, I spent more time on Zoom with friends from other places that I have connection with than I have with new friends here where I'm at.

Kai: Yeah. I, I don't know if you felt this way, but when I was in Hawaii, I felt really lonely sometimes and I'm fine. I'm pretty independent. I can be alone. And that feeling of loneliness and isolation was pretty infrequent. But when I hit it was really hard. So I feel like I hope you're doing, you know,

Jackal: well, I have felt that I felt, uh, kind of like, What the hell did I do? Did I do the right thing the [00:10:00] first month but honestly, this might be TMI and but I've had a whirlwind week so far. I had a fire last week at the house that I had rented.

Jackal: And so it's just been crazy. I'm now in an Airbnb because the insurance is covering it but. I actually haven't had time to be lonely in this past week or so because it's just been too much of, a whirlwind, but I am using it as an opportunity to get my own place. I'll have a, my own place it has a little private yard for the dogs, things like that. I'm looking forward to that and looking for calm in my life because I think once I have more calm in my life, then I can be ready to accept the friendships that come my way.

Jackal: And Take the time to get away for the weekend or connect, whatever, go on a bike ride or something. Cause I'm in also in a place where, just two weeks ago, we had like a major snow storm and, once the sun came out again, but, the fire was [00:11:00] caused by a big windstorm, it's just, the weather is crazy.

Kai: In just a short period of time, you moved and you did the whole relocation and then this fire, I'm glad you're safe. I'm excited for you about a new place.

Jackal: I'm hoping May 1st. So I don't know when this episode is dropping. It might've been after the fact,

Jackal: And just one more little shout out. Happy lesbian visibility week. Uh, wanna highlight all of our, our friends from the Dyke community and, love you a lot and, pride to you

Kai: yep, happy lesbian visibility week everybody.

Kai: Jackal and I want to remind our listeners that we have a new member section. We want to thank those like Emory, Harold, Taylor, Matt, and Alex who have become members. Our member section offers bonus questions, features trans masculine pioneers no longer with us, and hilarious personal stories by our volunteer extraordinaire, Adam.

Kai: Here's another teaser.

Adam: Anyway, the story I wanted to tell today is a pretty familiar one in the land of trans masc ridiculousness, in that it centers on a [00:12:00] misplaced dick. So, as I mentioned, part of my whole midlife trans epiphany involved blowing up my 13 year marriage, which in turn meant that I needed to sell my house, which I'm actually still in the process of doing.

Adam: And I have two kids, and my ex and I split custody of them, but point being, kids live here in this house 50 percent of the time, and as such my house frequently looks like a tornado of glitter and crayons just ripped right through it. So, anytime the broker wants to bring prospective buyers by, I have to do a frenzied power clean of the house to make it look halfway presentable.

Adam: So, the other day, the broker calls and says he has some folks who want to see it, and I do the frenzied power clean and clear everyone out of the house. I come home a couple hours later after the showing, feeling extremely proud of myself for the manic level of cleaning efforts, and then notice that I manage to leave a giant, hyper realistic, quite veiny dick in the sink.

Adam: Yeah, so after having the requisite shame spiral of crippling embarrassment, I text the broker, I believe it was just a string of fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, with like a thousand apologies after, and then [00:13:00] I chose that moment to out myself as trans to him, since that seemed like the logical thing to do.

Adam: He being a grown up who is extremely focused on making his commission, replied with something to the effect of lol, all good, I've seen worse, and said that he'd actually noticed it in time to conceal it before the buyer saw it. Which, of course, made me wonder whether that meant he had picked it up and moved it somewhere and then moved it back?

Adam: Or maybe he just threw a towel over it or something? These are the questions that keep me up at night, wondering whether my broker has touched my dick. We also accept donations, and we want to thank Kida and Evan for their donations. The 4 a month. So go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up now. We don't wanna be gatekeepers, so if you feel like you can't afford $4 a month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com.

Adam: Consider buying a T-shirt while you're on our website. Or if you want to be cool like Adam. We're always looking for volunteers and we [00:14:00] especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Jackal: So welcome back to Stealth. We're here with Alex. How you doing today, Alex?

Alex: I'm doing well, thanks.

Jackal: Thank you. Hey, so I don't know you personally. How did you become a guest on our show?

Alex: Yeah, so I discovered the show actually through listening to the Gender Revealed podcast. So it was plugged through that podcast and it just seemed of interest and then I went and checked it out and actually was familiar with, you know, quite a few guests who had been on the show and it really resonated with me.

Alex: So I ended up connecting with Kai, actually, I think, over Instagram.

Jackal: Shout out to Tuck and Gender Reveal. Thank you so much. We did do a kind of cross promotion. Not that they need our support because they're a lot bigger than we are, but we do appreciate their support of and how did you learn about transmasculine identities?

Alex: Yeah, it's a good question. The language was a little bit [00:15:00] different back then, but I would say I, I first kind of, became aware of you know, trans identities or like, trans masculine identities in probably 1999. So I was 16 years old at the time and I was just coming out as queer.

Alex: And then. I went to boarding school for all of high school in New England. And the fall semester of my grade 11 year, I went to Vermont and did a semester program. It was really cool. It was on this organic farm. And I made a friend there who was also in the process of coming out as queer and he was from New York and he had more sort of inroads there to like different queer communities.

Alex: And he had a friend there who had, she had dated someone who had transitioned to a trans guy. And they were like, you know, 15, 16 at the time. Right. And I just found that really intriguing and that kind of like set things in motion for me. In terms of doing a little bit of exploring online.

Alex: I think probably the next kind of [00:16:00] moment that I remember was going to see boys don't cry. And we, I went actually with that same friend and some of our friends from school to like a little. movie theater in the West Village and watching that film and him saying to me I think this is gonna be really hard for you to watch.

Alex: And it was almost like he had this kind of, like, he kind of knew, like, you know, before I did that I was trans and, and, well, obviously, it's, it's very challenging maybe to watch but it really kind of, like, hit me. And then I think after that, really, it was kind of going online and getting really into the world of, of LiveJournal and discovering that whole sort of like community there.

Alex: And so I just started connecting with other trans guys online and really like scouring the online archive of, you know, FTM culture at the time. And then, yeah,

Jackal: yeah, what were the steps, what, you know, like you, you got involved with the community and things did, you know, how did you do the process?[00:17:00]

Alex: Yeah, I mean, like in terms of actually transitioning.

Jackal: Yeah.

Alex: So, I kind of had two different sort of paths unfolding in terms of how I was connecting in with the trans community at the time. So one was really online and then one was in person. And that was sort of like the context for where I was starting to, I think, kind of explore my own identity as, as trans and as, as male.

Alex: And I found they were very different worlds in some ways. So I, you know, I,

Jackal: How so? Silence.

Alex: You know, like a kind of a coming more out of like, I think some of the like transsexual identities and experiences of the 20th century and, and then at the same time, a lot of the friends that I had more [00:18:00] in real life for kind of like part of the punk scene and, and, you know, kind of more connected in with queerness and with the sort of like transgender politics of the 1990s that were starting to evolve and react to some of the narratives that trans people were forced to adhere to I think earlier in the 20th century so there was an interesting historical moment and I kind of struggled to With all the politics of it and coming to terms with someone who at the end of the day I have, I do have a very like kind of simple and binary identity as a man.

Alex: But I, you know, that didn't feel very radical at the time. And so I sort of struggled around that a little bit, but you know, I, I did connect in with a lot of people who were sort of like starting hormones. And I I started testosterone when I was when I was just turned 19. So I started my social transition at the end of high school when I was 17 and came out at my high school, asked to use male pronouns.

Alex: So this would have been like [00:19:00] 2000, 2001. And you know, some of the teachers were supportive and some of them Really we're not but I sort of muddled through and then once I left high school, then it became a lot easier and I I really started to, you know, I started to go to therapy to get my letter to start hormones.

Alex: I was living in Western Massachusetts when I started hormones and I actually had a, my, the therapist who gave me the letter was himself. A trans guy and I went to, like, the doctor that everybody said was really easy to get a prescription from, and he was, and, and I started T and And then kind of went through, in quite rapid succession like between, I guess, 19 and 25, going through my medical transition.

Alex: So, next year I got top surgery, two years later I had a hysterectomy, and then I had phalloplasty when I was 25.

Jackal: Wow. Wow. Awesome. Amazing. So what were some of the things that you were [00:20:00] told in the online community and then in your in person punk community about how to live your life as a trans person?

Alex: Yeah, it's interesting, because I think, as I mentioned, I think there were some sort of differences between the two. I think, It was this kind of, like, interesting moment in history when trans men were really starting to grapple with, like, you know, what does it mean to be a man in the world, to question that kind of construct, but at the same time, a lot of the resources that existed were very much kind of, like, still coming out of that tradition of the goal is to transition and, and be quite private about it and be straight and all these things. Right. So I saw people really grappling with that inheritance and in different ways. And for some people that really resonated and that was the path they went down and then for others. They were really interested in challenging that, I think online there was a kind of pressure to blend in and to be binary [00:21:00] and to kind of conceal, one's past and nobody explicitly said those things. It's just that the guys who were doing those things were very much sort of the top of the online social hierarchy, I think, in some of the like the, as a young person in the live journal world or communities that I was following, and so there was this kind of like aspirational impulse a little bit to be like them. And the presumption was, I think, in those sort of online worlds that, the ideal was to live your life as closely as possible to, like, if you had been born cis, and I saw a lot of that. But equally, I, I think I also had friends who were very queer and, and we're sort of involved in like the punk world. And it was really about challenging broader social constructs. So I was influenced by both of those things. And kind of muddling through trying to figure out my own kind of identity.

Jackal: Awesome.

Alex: Yeah, I think ultimately, like, I came to a place where I, I realized that I kind of had to find [00:22:00] my own path. I mean, I moved around a lot when I was a younger person and I ended up, moving back to Toronto when I was 22, and that was more or less pretty deep into my physical medical transition. And so I had an opportunity to shift away from so much of a focus on, on, I think my transition and figure out just a little bit more like who I wanted to be in the world as a young person, right?

Alex: Cause it was very all consuming at quite a young age. And so being able to just explore other interests and put that on the back burner a little bit, I think it was like an important sort of like, like milestone in my own. life as a trans person.

Jackal: Right. Yeah. It happens to a lot of us where we just want to be, you know, like, okay, we're, we're here. We're seen in the world as men. We don't have to be preoccupied with this. And we just want to be, we just want to live our lives.

Alex: Yeah,

Jackal: Yeah. How do you think your social standings, whether that be race or class or sexual identity or anything, [00:23:00] impacted your ability to transition, your fears about transitioning, anything like that?

Alex: I think hugely that it did. I mean, I come from a lot of class privilege in many ways. My father, who was very supportive of me throughout my transition is a doctor and my mom is a nurse, you know, so I had a certain level of, I think, confidence in navigating. The medical system and I would even say like a certain sense of entitlement because I kind of grew up with with access to really good health care and then also being Canadian, Canadian and, it's it's a little different up here, obviously, because we have universal health care.

Alex: So. Money doesn't factor in in the same way. So I think I, I approached my medical transition feeling very empowered to navigate the system and quite like literate with respect to researching, different surgeons and that [00:24:00] kind of thing and not wanting to settle for anything that I thought was not, Like, the quality of health care that I wanted to receive.

Alex: So I feel very much linked to the kind of privilege that I grew up with. I think obviously also being white, , we know that systemic racism exists in the health care system. Like it doesn't ever anywhere else. So, my ability to go to places like, Trinidad, Colorado, or, small town in Belgium and have positive experiences. I think it is also linked to white privilege.

Alex: Trinidad, Colorado was, they used to call like this exchange capital of the world.

Jackal: Wow. I did not know that.

Kai: Yeah, Dr. Bowers works up there and, and other folks. I, I had a question just about healthcare since it's such a enormous issue that impacts our community in the world at large and access to healthcare. You've accessed healthcare in many different spots. As a Canadian who has access to universal healthcare, and then doing that in the U. S. and abroad, can you just talk to us a little bit about some of the things that you [00:25:00] noted about those different systems?

Alex: well it's interesting because I transitioned before gender affirming care was, or surgeries were covered in my home province, so health care in Canada is provincial, each province has a different system, so some provinces cover transition related surgeries and some don't in Ontario, Ontario.

Alex: Ontario. The government didn't start covering those surgeries until after I had completed all of my surgeries. So, and I also was, I lived in the States for 10 years. So I'm from Toronto, I lived in the States between ages 12 and 22, and completed most of my medical transition in the US without health insurance.

Alex: So paying out of, out of pocket and actually dropped out of college and, was just working to really fund some of my surgeries and then was lucky to have some parental support in that regard as well. But I remember having surgeries in the U. S. and it was quite scary because, [00:26:00] if anything did go wrong, I didn't have insurance to cover really anything beyond the surgeries.

Alex: You know, the beyond what I had saved for the surgeries, right? So that always was, and I don't think I had very good follow up care. I find even when I did go abroad to have bottom surgery, you know, I went to Belgium. I was able to come back home, I was back home in Ontario at that point, and I was able to access really great medical care through my family doctor and through various specialists within the system here you know, obviously, but at no cost, so that gave me huge peace of mind, and I find even now, as, you know, a trans person, just Getting older and going through just all the sort of medical screenings you have to go through or whatever care you need to access it is just so profoundly different when you live somewhere where you don't have to think about the cost associated with it. And so, I feel. feel so grateful for that. And [00:27:00] it's a huge difference, I think, between Canada and the US. But I received really good care from all the surgeons that I went to, whether it was in the States or was abroad in Belgium or, or here in Canada.

Alex: So the quality of the care was the same. It was just, I think that financial component really different.

Kai: Even having parents who are in the medical field. Back in the late 90s, early 2000s, I don't know how many folks were really up on the research or how much research there actually was at the time. So I'm glad your parents were behind you and supporting you and in the know and you felt, able to access care and were very affirmed in that way.

Kai: It sounds like it went, it went really well.

Kai: So our show is called Stealth the Transmasculine Podcast. We talk about disclosure and all the issues associated with that. I guess the obvious question is, Alex, what does stealth mean to you? Mm

Alex: very loaded question,

Jackal: That's why we ask it. It's so exciting.

Alex: So I would say that stealth is a kind of, it's [00:28:00] a kind of mentality, or like a kind of logic by which in a cisnormative society people assume one is trans unless you disclose otherwise, The question of whether one is stealth or not is, is in part about how , you navigate other people's assumptions about you.

Alex: Nobody meets me and assumes that I'm trans , because we live, Again, in a cisnormative society where the default is to assume that everybody's cis unless, you know, there are certain I guess cues, or somebody discloses otherwise, right? I think many of your guests have articulated already that it's, you know, kind of a problematic term.

Alex: Etymologically, it means to steal or to conceal. And so there is a kind of like a pejorative connotation, I think, to it. And I'm betraying the fact that I have an English background here. So I'm kind of a nerd around like the precision of language. So I don't think it's the most helpful terminology but I think that, the concept itself, it's [00:29:00] interesting. For myself, I transitioned to be a man, and so if people think I'm a man on meeting me, I don't see that as concealing anything. I think the challenge is that people can't see my trans history, and so in a world in which cis people feel a sense of entitlement often to know if someone's trans, like, not disclosing can be seen as a type of concealment.

Kai: With so much of the politics happening and the efforts to eradicate trans people, particularly in the States and other places, one can be arrested for fraud, of things can happen to us. In fact, I'm just going to comment on an article in the New York Times yesterday about a trans man who's a politician in Ohio who's running for a Democratic position in the Ohio Senate. And the law is stated in a way where if he runs under his name he will be At risk of being arrested for fraud so they're making him use his name assigned at birth. And so the,

Jackal: [00:30:00] Holy crap. That is awful.

Kai: yeah, the title of the article is Ohio Law Forces Transgender Candidate to Use Dead Name on Ballot.

Kai: And the New York Times is not good

Jackal: Trans friendly.

Kai: You're right, language is important, and then how policy makers have gotten into legislating and what we do with our bodies and how we live, and language is so important, so I really appreciate you talking about the nuance there.

Alex: Yeah. Yeah.

Kai: and Jackal, you're right, we're just trying to live, we're just trying to, trying to be here. So thank you. And have there been times, Alex, in your life when you've lived a low to non disclosing lifestyle?

Alex: Yes. Very much so. I, in fact, used to be really kind of obsessed with controlling who knew and that became ultimately quite exhausting for me. I think, you know,

Kai: Say, say more about that.

Alex: I, I used to see I guess the question of stealth as. binary way. And so I, I [00:31:00] really felt strongly and I do feel strongly that, it really is, should be up to a trans individual to choose if they are going to disclose and how and when and to whom.

Alex: And but I think unfortunately, you know, things don't always turn out that way because often people end up getting outed or, you know, it ends up not being quite so simple. And so I found that, like, the nuances of that very complex because I went through periods of my life where I was very private about it and leading a low disclosure lifestyle, but I always was anxious about, you know, if I disclose to this person, is this person gonna find out?

Alex: Or if I share this on social media, who's gonna see it? And that kind of thing. Just trying to keep track, almost, of all that. So it really Tiring. You know, when I moved back to Canada when I was 22, I came back to originally to [00:32:00] go to finish my undergrad. And I didn't really, I lived away from here for 10 years.

Alex: I didn't really know many people and I was very selective about who my disclosed to. A few weeks after I graduated from undergrad, I went to Belgium and had phalloplasty. And then that fall, so it was in June and that fall of 2008, I started my PhD and I went into my PhD program pretty much totally stealth.

Alex: And I made a conscious decision around that. I went through all of my PhD, not disclosing even to my closest friends, many of whom were queer. And I, my PhD was in English, but I worked in queer theory and in trans studies and I didn't. really positioned myself as a trans person. And it really was, it was really complicated because, the fields that I worked in aren't real, weren't really a, you don't usually bring yourself in as a subject so much.

Alex: So, It was more like writing about literary texts, for example, right? Or working in like critical theory. So I was able to have it actually, I was able to [00:33:00] explore a lot of things that were personally interesting to me or related to my own experience, but from like an academic distance or at a remove.

Alex: And so intellectually that was great, but it got increasingly complicated. Because working in those fields, I think it is important to, to be able to position yourself, as having lived experience around a subject, right, versus as an ally, and so it kind of, like, came to a bit of a head for me.

Alex: I did end up disclosing to my committee and and, and to, to a few friends but I actually

Kai: did you, how did you come to that decision? I'm just trying to put myself in your seat. You're in queer studies, you're around other folks who are All about that. And here you are in this place where often many of us are. I have opportunities to disclose and so many opportunities that could gain me so much knowledge and connection with other people and also be terrifying? And, and then if I sit with it and I'm private, I'm a private person that still can feel uncomfortable.[00:34:00]

Kai: I don't know. I mean, it sounds really, really challenging. Talk to us a little bit more about that.

Jackal: Especially around the why you decided to not disclose in the beginning and, and live this kind of like the way Kaia describes it. And then of course the critical mass where you decided to tell your committee and some friends . I'm curious about that.

Jackal: Mm hmm.

Alex: so, so initially the decision to not disclose, I don't know if it was a conscious, like I woke up one day and said, I'm going to go into this program and I don't think it was that simple. But it was just sort of like intuitively what felt most comfortable for me was just to not share that aspect of myself.

Alex: It was probably a bit of an experiment on some level. I was really curious what it would feel like to have friendships, particularly with men. Cause most of my friends in the program were with, other men where that was not necessarily like a part of the dynamic. I think More than anything else, I was really interested in moving into a phase in my life where I was finding commonality with people that wasn't [00:35:00] around, like, identity around gender and sexuality, we all had something in common, which was that we were passionate about English literature, right?

Alex: And we discovered other sources of commonality too, right? And built friendships around those shared interests. And that was a really developmentally like wonderful phase in my life. But I think that I started to realize that. Well, initially it felt like it had afforded me a sort of freedom to bring other pieces of my personality more to the, to the fore I think I also started to feel a little bit invisible in terms of, like, really huge parts of my own lived experience of my life not being as like, not being things that I was talking about in those friendships.

Alex: Right. At the same time, sort of like 2014, 2015, when I started to share more the so called trans tipping point, I saw people like Janet Mock, who were starting to come out and talk about their own experiences and starting to [00:36:00] disclose After being very private for a long time, that shifted my mindset a little bit as well. Yeah,

Kai: I wanted to stick with it for a sec, if I may, I, you're describing this really beautiful process of developing different areas of who you are and engaging with people without them knowing things. So you can explore yourself. You're really like identity development.

Kai: You're talking really nicely about this. And I'm so glad you found your, your people, your nerds, and you're nerding out with these folks. We love nerds. We're kind of nerdy. I think that's amazing. Did you ever feel as if you were being dishonest or somehow nefarious by not sharing?

 Like many of us and myself included, I always felt like I had some sort of obligation to share something so private about myself. And it was really challenging to hold onto that, particularly if I'm around other queer or trans folks with whom I had a long term relationship, so did you ever feel that like, Jackal mentioned, how did you decide to bust out and tell your committee and others?

Alex: I did feel that and I [00:37:00] struggled with that because I think as you say, like, I think that impulse that we owe people that piece of our stories. I, was something that I, I did and I continue to fundamentally disagree with, right? I don't think that there's any imperative that trans people or responsibility of trans people to disclose, right?

Alex: At the same time, what I've learned, now being in my early forties from where I was at then in my twenties is that in withholding that aspect of myself, it prevents me from being as close within friendships and it prevents me from, A, getting, feeling supported and fully loved and seen for, like, my whole self, you know, but also yeah, like there were times where I felt like, honestly that I was being dishonest either implicitly and sometimes explicitly.

Alex: I remember one of my very best friends in grad school at one point asking me if I was, circumcised. [00:38:00] Like,

Kai: Yeah.

Alex: Just was like, came up with a lie.

Jackal: Well, I would just say no, you

Alex: think I,

Jackal: know, I'm just, I'm just saying what's

Kai: but maybe, maybe he is. We don't know. I don't know. We don't know. It's none of my damn business. What's in someone's pants?

Jackal: Yeah, exactly. So,

Alex: I think I sort of said like, yes, but then I realized like I had put my foot in my mouth because that led him to more questions.

Jackal: yeah, yeah, totally.

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Jackal: that whole, there's a couple of things for me. One is that whole, nefarious, like cisgendered people have this idea that we owe them what they consider to be a truth about us, that ourselves and the internalized transphobia that I think it's associated with this non disclosure or stealth.

Jackal: Right. So it's [00:39:00] like. I, I'm in a relationship,, whether that be work or friendship or whatever. And I didn't disclose in the first five minutes and then at some point in my relationship with those people, at least in the past, this doesn't happen to me very often anymore.

Jackal: But in the past I would reach this point in my relationship and that could have been you. 10 days. It could have been a year. It could have been five years or whatever. But I got to a point all every time about feeling like I had missed my opportunity and I was, I was in the wrong, that's exactly that, that feeling and I, I really think that that's transphobic. internalized transphobia, right? It's all these messages that we have received about when we're supposed to come out, how we're supposed to come out, that we owe the cis community, our identity, that we owe them that. And I, like you, fundamentally, fundamentally disagree with that, but still have [00:40:00] that internalized transphobia that would In interfere, I think with my, okay, I want to come out to this person, but now it's too late because I should have come out, , like all of those different things, right?

Alex: It's tricky because you go through, as you say, you may go through moments in those relationships where you do have moments of dishonesty, frankly, or where it's like things might come up around my scars or around what school I went to growing up because I went to a single sex school growing up and I live in the city that I grew up in and that kind of thing, right?

Alex: But those aren't necessarily the moments in which I would choose to disclose, right? Being kind of on the back foot, reacting to some minor questions. So it's like, again, I have a very different, I think relationship to the concept of stealth now and to disclosure than I did when I was younger.

Jackal: And speaking of which, like, so how do you manage issues of disclosure now? Like I'm not going to say post transition because you've been post [00:41:00] transition for like 20 years, when you have a new doctor, when you have new friendships, when you have professional relationships, whatever I don't know if you're dating or if you have a partner, but in dating situations, how do you manage issues of disclosure now?

Alex: So, well, I'm married. I've been married for almost 11 years, and my wife and I have been Thank you. My wife and I have been together for almost 14 years, so, I actually told her on our first date and I, I didn't necessarily go in planning to do that, but there was like a moment of opportunity and I did.

Alex: It was totally fine and, but, many members of her family don't know that I'm trans, for example, and yet I will disclose, at work, or whatever, so it's very, it's still very, like, patchwork, to be honest, I think I used to have, a very rigid logic around disclosure, and now it's more of an intuition and relevance I do struggle a lot with it.

Alex: What you talked about, Jackal, with when you have relationships that are very [00:42:00] close, and you've had that relationship for many, many years how you, how to go about disclosing I think I, I've moved away more from trying to have so much control over my privacy and around who knows and who doesn't know, but at the same time, I don't disclose unless I feel like I have a, a reason to.

Alex: I don't always disclose even in a medical context unless it's, it's relevant. I think the big piece for me, though which has led me to be a lot more out in, in certain circumstances is that, Brene Brown has this, this line, like, either you own your story or your story owns you. And I, I, I found that I was wanting to share my story more, like to share it with colleagues, to share it with friends, to share it in, in my writing. It was your podcast. Yeah, like I, I saw people like, again, like, you know, Janet Mock or so many, amazing trans writers and activists and podcasters and what have you coming in and sharing their [00:43:00] stories. And I started to feel like , I, I have a story to share too. Right. And so it became more about that for me.

Alex: But it's complicated. I don't have a formula. I don't do it perfectly.

Kai: It is. It is complicated. Alex, when you're talking, you're capturing so much that stress that we carry with us when we're faced with many opportunities to, to disclose or not disclose and think on our feet. And sometimes it's, we think about it in advance and others we don't.

Kai: And it's just something that is very unique to our communities. And I, I also think, we're exercising judgment. And everybody has a different comfort level about that. And sometimes it's about self preservation, safety. And we, we, all of those things are valid, for everyone. It's not, we're not obligated to, to disclose things that are so private.

Kai: And yet, this tension again about representation mattering. It is so freeing for me at this point in my life to be more not even visible. Nobody's [00:44:00] watching me do this podcast, but just to be a part of it and be in conversation with our brothers and our siblings , that is such a beautiful thing and beautiful, beautiful experience.

Kai: When we hear from younger listeners that are saying, we didn't know you were here, we didn't know there was a future for us. You help us see there, there's a future in us. You help us see a future that's better too, to all of our younger folks, because you're helping make the world better, ?

Kai: , thank you for being here. Thanks for talking to us about it.

Kai: How out or not out are we all the time? It's a constant, constant thing.

Jackal: Because it reminds me like, okay, you said something early on about the assumption of cisgender, right? Like, so we go through the world as low disclosure or stealth, not because we're choosing to be, but because the assumption out there is cisgender.

Jackal: I think that this is why I've kind of combated the internalized transphobia. Because for me, I assume all of my friends know I'm trans. Because I don't [00:45:00] hide anything on Facebook. It's not like I'm not saying, like I'm wearing these t shirts. I'm doing this podcast.

Jackal: There's so many ways that I have shown people that I am trans if they're looking for the clues. Right.

Alex: Yeah.

Jackal: So I assume everybody knows I had a friend last year give me, this pride, lanyard, and sticker, and a pin, and it was all with the new Pride flag.

Jackal: So it had the trans colors on it. I just assumed she knew. And all of a sudden one day we're talking about stuff and she looked at me like a deer in the headlights and she said, I, I didn't know. And I was like, how could you have not known? I've never told you specifically, but there are so many things, but because of that, cis heteronorm, normativity that's the assumption, but that's how kind of how I deal with it.

Jackal: I assume you know, and until you tell me you don't know, that makes it not on me.

Alex: Yeah.

Kai: [00:46:00] with the Billie Eilish. Billie Eilish was like, I just thought y'all knew I was queer. It's like, duh.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: have a huge coming out story. And I think that's actually really beautiful that it's not as immense to like, I'm coming out, , and celebrate as you want. But I think it's just not as big as a blip on the radar screen anymore.

Alex: a lot more what my moments of disclosure are now. I almost try to be like casual about it as opposed to like, Oh, I have a big thing to tell you I would say the two other things that have really shifted my relationship to disclosure are number one, becoming a dad.

Alex: So I have two kids who are six and two. My wife and I, I think knew , that we, we both discussed and were on the same page, around, being very open with our kids about the fact that I'm trans from an early age. I never wanted it to be a big reveal to them. I wanted them to just always know.

Alex: So I've been talking to them about it, since they were [00:47:00] babies, basically. And so I think that's also, , wanting to be open with them. And knowing that they will know and they will probably share that, like we're not going to ask them to not share that with,

Jackal: It's

Alex: know, right? So that, that's already like the cats out of the bag and wanting to model for them like that I, I didn't want them to take associate any shame or secrecy with it, right?

Alex: So that kind of shifted that for me. And I think the other thing is, professionally, I'm now in an executive role at work. I'm a public servant and there's a big commitment at the leadership level in the public service in Ontario around anti racism and inclusion. And so I, I was really inspired by seeing a lot of leaders that I knew sharing their own stories, whether It would be around being like racialized or mental health or ability, disability, what have you.

Alex: And so that really inspired me to think more as I got older [00:48:00] about what it was to be a a mentor and to model for younger people, , that you can be successful and you can Be a dad and you can be a leader and that kind of thing and what that looks like. So I've started to, I think, think a little bit less about myself in those moments and how representation might be helpful for other people who are less privileged and more vulnerable than I am.

Jackal: That's a lot of geographic privilege that too, right? There's people with kids who live in the Midwest and they're not as comfortable, you know, they have to teach their kids. I'm not ashamed, but this is potentially dangerous, right?

Jackal: How to do something, but I'm so happy for you. That's, that's amazing.

Kai: I really appreciate how challenging it may have been to come to that decision to not trip on how your kids do or don't share information about y'all. If we normalize it and we not make it a big deal, I think kids really are pretty not as, they don't really care what's in mom or dad's pants or how they came to be, they don't want [00:49:00] to know any of that stuff, right?

Kai: They're just moving on. It's just like, Hey, what do you have for breakfast? , it's just a normal thing. And I like that You don't want it to be secret or have them hold on to things or, have it be in any way shameful or stigmatized. So that's really beautiful. I can just appreciate how challenging that might've been for you. Or maybe cause you're like kids pop off with the strangest things

Alex: They have no filters

Kai: out loud. Yeah,

Alex: we are talking a little bit about, like, the concept of privacy, and you're right, Jack, while I, I do feel, living in Toronto, that I have a lot of, a lot more safety in, , legally than in many jurisdictions, particularly in the U. S. It's a huge factor on how it, so it's not a, it's not a blueprint for how other parents should do it, it's just what's worked for our family

Jackal: so what do you think are some milestones of successes or challenges that you've had in your life post transition? You become a parent, you've said so many things, like in, in your Academic career in your professional life, in your personal life being married.

Jackal: What are some things that [00:50:00] you consider to be milestones for you?

Alex: Definitely getting married and starting a family. That was huge for me. Those were things that I, I really wanted as a young person and I never knew if they were gonna happen for me or not, right? So I feel so grateful not a day goes by that I don't, that I take those things for granted and really my, my family's at the center of my universe. That's a huge milestone for me. I think professionally, I went from dropping out of university as a, as a teenager and being quite precariously housed and, and working really hard just to afford surgeries and that kind of thing to finishing a PhD and then going on to start my career in public service nearly 10 years ago.

Alex: So I'm really proud of those things. I think those were big milestones for me. Things like, buying a house and just some of those big adult milestones, I think I didn't know, frankly, as a teenager starting my transition, what kind of impact that was going to have on my [00:51:00] life.

Alex: And if I was going to be able to. achieve many of those things. Those were big for me. And I think, now as I get a bit older, a lot of the things that are important moments or milestones are a little bit more internal or personal, like coming back to to religion has been one for me.

Alex: I think exploring different creative outlets. Those are some of the ones that I would, that I would list.

Kai: So, Alex, I have lots of thoughts about disclosure and family and relationships I'm really fascinated by how you came out to your wife, how you disclosed your wife, which we, which might be another show and then also decisions around not disclosing to family members and any sort of concern you may have about your children disclosing to family members as someone who's partnered with someone whose family doesn't know, I remember there was one point in time where a relative met my family and we were at my parents house and I scrambled to hide photographs. Pre transition, and I was wondering whether or not people would get the cat out of the bag, and it was [00:52:00] just like, please leave my house.

Kai: Anyway, I

Jackal: How completely uncomfortable. I'm so, that is so awful.

Kai: Everybody did great but my family I was like, they were really stressed like, we don't know what to say.

Alex: my mom brought up all these, all of these childhood books of mine. And I have, I have like a million books from childhood that she had held onto. And so many of them have my old name written in them.

Kai: It's so

Alex: And, and it's like, I actually feel fine with that because I'm just like I'm not going to go in and like erase that all but I realize that sometimes we'll have my kids read them, right?

Alex: People will come over to read to my kids and i'm like, oh my god They're gonna wonder wonder who this person is Yeah,

Kai: It's, it's actually really sweet to be able to cherish memories like that when, I don't know if that's true for you, but just seeing my mom's handwriting, my mom passed away, and even if it's addressed to my, my [00:53:00] birth name, I'm glad I can be in a place where I'm really happy to see that, thank you for sharing that.

Jackal: Yeah, totally.

Kai: Alex, if you're thinking forward, right, how do you imagine your life will be in the future?

Alex: I think pretty similar to how it is now. I feel very settled. I'm just, I've just turned 41. And so I've got, , a couple decades of work still ahead of me. I've got little kids. Looking 10, 20 years ahead. I'll be older, but I'm, I'm hoping it doesn't really look that different from how it does now.

Alex: I'm just excited to watch my kids grow up and continue to grow in my career and hopefully have a little bit more time for some of my hobbies. But,

Jackal: What hobbies? What hobbies?

Alex: I love to spend time outdoors. So I do a lot of like camping and skiing and canoeing. Love to write. I love to do gardening. And that kind of thing.

Alex: So I've also got a dog. So it's been a lot. I don't know if my dog is a hobby, but it feels [00:54:00] sometimes like she is. Cause we spend a lot of time together.

Kai: It sounds like you're well supported Alex. You have a family. Talk to us a little bit about the type of support you have now, a little bit more in depth. And then what type of support you think you may need as you move forward in your career and in your life.

Kai: Silence.

Alex: but my, my, I married into like a very close knit and supportive family that all lives in Toronto. So I feel really grateful. For that.

Alex: And a wonderful I think network of friends and colleagues and, and neighbors like we live in a great neighborhood. We've lived there for almost 10 years and having younger kids in the school system, you get to know your neighbors very well. So I'm grateful for that. And then just professionally, my colleagues are amazing. And I feel [00:55:00] very supported from that by them. And I've started to be a little bit more out at work. And that's been a really positive experience for me. And my work gives me a lot of, stability too. I actually had an interesting year in that regard because in terms of putting my support network to the test, I had to have like major surgery this year, not trans related. But I went in for like a cancer screening and last February and was diagnosed as being really high risk for colon cancer and ended up having to have my entire colon removed. And that was really intense experience. But I was. just completely blown over by how the the depths of support that I received like from friends and family who just really showed up for me.

Alex: And so that was like a really wonderful experience, particularly having gone through a lot of my surgeries, transition related surgeries, as a younger person, frankly, without a lot of support.

Kai: Thank you for sharing that. I'm [00:56:00] glad that you were well supported and I'm glad you got healthcare and caught it. I'm so glad about that.

Jackal: Thank you for sharing that because it really touches on how a lot of times we do lack support in our medical transition early on for a number of reasons, lack of family support.

Jackal: Or,, a community, but some people are really isolated in their areas and stuff. And then now as an adult, being able to have these medical issues, which are really serious and not to be joked about, but having support matters. Like it really is fundamental to our mental health, our survival rate, like all of these different things.

Jackal: So thank you for sharing that.

Kai: You're so right, Jekyll. It really saddens me sometimes when folks on surgery groups, support groups are saying, can I recover alone? I don't have anybody to look out for me. That just breaks my heart., It's such an intense experience that if you've never had surgery, you don't, you can't possibly fathom what it's like.

Kai: And, and the recovery process is really in depth depending on what you have done. And so [00:57:00] support, whether it's just making sure you're eating, that you have somebody to talk with, like if you're in pain, , it's so critical. I'm so glad you had that. I'm really glad you have care. Thank you for, for touching on that.

Kai: You were talking about, you're a young person and your father is, having dementia and are your, are your parents together over there?

Alex: No, my parents divorced

Kai: We're as older folks, we have talked a lot on this show about caring for our parents to varying degrees or dealing with the aging parents and what that means for us as older adults at this point in our life, which isn't developmentally on point and you're faced with that at a, such a young age.

Alex: Yeah, my parents were in their 40s when they had me. So, it was like my dad's second marriage, and so I'm the baby of the family. And definitely now in that kind of like sandwich generation, right? younger kids of my own and then older parents and it's really challenging. Like my dad was my biggest [00:58:00] supporter throughout my transition.

Alex: Like his, they talk about one of the greatest indicators for young trans people's, mental health and survival is familial support. And I was just so profoundly lucky to have that with my dad. And I would say, he's not necessarily , the somebody who on paper would have I would have guessed going into the process would have been but he really showed up for me.

Alex: So it's been, there's a lot of grief around watching your parents age and particularly with dementia.

Jackal: You did transition really young. So how does he remember you with his dementia? Like does he remember you as a young man or does he remember you as his daughter?

Alex: no, he, he, he, that thankfully he never was confused. Like he's at a point now with his dementia where he doesn't actually recognize me or my siblings anymore. But when he was still able to recognize us, it was just like, yeah, that's my son.

Kai: Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate that. I know it kind of went deep in the family stuff, but

Alex: yeah, no,

Kai: Jackal and I have been [00:59:00] talking pretty open about our own experiences and then the guests have too. So thank you so much. , I'm glad he was such an important person who supported you and you're absolutely right familial support, is so critical to our survival.

Jackal: So, we're nearing the end of our show. So a couple of questions here at the end. What would you say to newer trans and non binary folk? They could be your own age, but have only transitioned within the last couple of years. They could be teenagers like you were as a young person, any, any age, but what what would you say to those people?

Alex: Well, I think following on the previous comment I made about my dad, I would just say, go in with an open mind about where you might find your support because you might, you'll be surprised by the people who show up to support you and that might not be the people that you suspect.

Alex: And don't try to not go in with assumptions around that and give people the opportunity. To show up, but also to [01:00:00] change and to grow. And I think the other thing I would say is just, try not to get too caught up in the politics of the day that you lose your own internal compass.

Alex: I think it's really easy to get absorbed in kind of like what's the right way to transition or the right way to be trans and you really need to find your own path with that and try not to overly politicize, your own experience. Like figure out who you are first and as Dolly Parton says, find out who you are and do it on purpose.

Alex: Right? And then I think surround yourself with people who are gonna build you up and love you for who you are and give you that space to grow and evolve and my identity and my own relationship to being trans changed, changed a lot over time. It's still evolving. And so I think give your, give yourself that space to continuously be growing into yourself. And find support, find community, , because I think being disconnected and isolated, trans stuff aside , , is a [01:01:00] challenging way to, to move through the world.

Jackal: How do you think we can be more supportive of our trans masculine brothers, whether that be people who are our own age, maybe older than us younger teenagers, how do you think we can be more supportive of our trans masculine brothers?

Alex: I guess I think about this, in terms of leadership and some of the principles of leadership, right? So, figuring out how to use what privilege and power you might have yourself to, to lift other people up. I think that looks differently for different people, depending on the community that you're in, what your interests are, that kind of thing.

Alex: But , if you have opportunities to mentor , and to model your own life, and your own experiences. I think that can be very meaningful and representation, I think, does, does matter. I think also even what you guys are doing now with kind of like creating an archive, right?

Alex: Documenting the variety of different lived experiences and [01:02:00] documenting the past because I think it's very easy to feel ahistorical as a trans person and just reinforcing that trans people have always been here and we will always be here, particularly now when in many places they're trying to legislate us out of existence is so Critical and

Jackal: Impossible.

Alex: yeah, it's impossible.

Alex: Yeah.

Kai: Alex, are you connected to other trans folks? What kind of support do you have, if you have any among our own community? Besides that, now that you're part of the STP group.

Alex: wish you know, i'm not as connected as I used to be and I wish that I had more not just more trans friends in my life, but like more, I I do have some very close trans friends, some of whom are like, I've been my friends for decades and some of whom are a little bit newer, but I don't have a lot of trans friends who are in a similar life place as me, like parents, or around my same age and that kind of thing.

Alex: So I, I don't feel like totally [01:03:00] alienated, but I also feel An increasing sense of wanting to be a little bit more reconnected with the community.

Kai: Well, I want to thank you for volunteering to be part of our mentoring program, which you already said was important because there are some folks who have kids who want to connect with other parents.

Jackal: And last question before our bonus questions, what do you think we should have asked that we didn't? Are there any famous last words of wisdom, parts of your story that you would like to share that we didn't get to touch on.

Alex: I think nothing specifically, but , I was reflecting on what a few potential avenues of inquiry might be that would be interesting for this podcast. And this is based on just a couple of themes I picked up on across different episodes. So one is I think questions of language and identity seem to come up a lot, right?

Alex: And several guests have commented on the language of transmasculine and how that's, a newer terminology, for example. I'm personally interested in how language evolves over time and how that [01:04:00] impacts identity formation and how we see ourselves. So I feel very connected still to the language from when I transitioned, which was really around like being transsexual, being a trans man.

Alex: And I'm not as connected in with some of these newer terms, just because those weren't the ones that Were so critical to my own coming into myself as a trans person. So I'm interested in how some of that language evolves over time and how it impacts how we see ourselves.

Alex: And then I think the other thing is this question of intergenerational connection or disconnection. And it's interesting because I think , the question of what constitutes a generation, it's not necessarily age based, right. But often it's also around when you transitioned, because I transitioned as a teenager or like a kid, I was transitioning alongside a lot of guys who were may be older than me.

Alex: And now I know people my age who are just coming out and transitioning and like in a very different moment in time. Right. I think that's really interesting to explore. And I think also [01:05:00] sometimes I feel a little bit of envy or grief around what some of the resources or opportunities are for people now around their transition.

Alex: Like I'm thinking even around fertility, preservation, for example that wasn't there even. And it's like in such a, if you look at like the grand scheme of history, right, it's like in like 10 years that changed, right? So it's interesting to see, how rapidly the landscape is evolving for trans people and how that impacts what we experience, what it is to be part of a generation.

Jackal: Sweet. I really appreciate both of those things

Jackal: we want to just thank you for being here. Thank you for reaching out. Thank you for sharing your story on our podcast. And it's been a real pleasure.

Kai: Thanks, Alex.

Kai: BONUS

Jackal: So thanks to our members for subscribing. Here we are with Alex and the bonus questions. Alex, the first question is. What do you think about being asked to identify your pronouns?

Alex: I guess I have a [01:06:00] little bit of a kind of mixed reaction to this. I think I'm probably more comfortable with it than I used to be in the past, but I think as some of your other Guests have noted. Sometimes it can feel like a little bit of a knee jerk reaction because it brings us up some baggage around maybe those years when you were not legibly he, him, or, you know, the feeling of like, did I go through my entire medical transition to be asked what my pronouns are?

Alex: But on the flip side you know, I think I've evolved on this a lot. So I, I, I really respect and understand the impulse, which is multi pronged, but number one obviously to support non binary people or people who might be misgendered and also to normalize that pronouns are things that we choose for ourselves and can be self identified and they're not inherent and they can change.

Alex: And then I think the other piece is to remind cis people that we all have pronouns, so it shouldn't just be incumbent on trans people to have to advocate for [01:07:00] the correct use of pronouns, but to put the emphasis on, to put the expectation on all of us that we're going to show up and, and share our pronouns from a place of inclusion.

Alex: I've seen it adopted at work, for example, and I, I kind of like it there. When people put it on their email signature, for example, because I think it, it often like signals, albeit often in a very rudimentary way, but kind of like signals who's an ally, right? It's a gesture towards showing that, you want to try to show up and support.

Alex: Trans people. I think, for me, the bigger issue is more like that when demonstrations of allyship don't really go beyond pronouns or bathroom signage and they stop there doesn't really do it for me because as a binary trans person saying I'm he him doesn't give me any visibility or support as a trans person right so it's to me it's almost more I see it now is like a form of allyship towards non binary people or people who are struggling with being correctly, their pronouns correctly used

Jackal: And how [01:08:00] did you come up with the name Alex or if I can say full name, Alexander, where did this name come from? Tell us your naming story?

Alex: So it's not really that interesting. It's

Jackal: it is. It's interesting to me.

Alex: My name didn't change that much when I masculized my name. I was named originally after my grandfather is his middle name. He passed away before I was born. So I never had the opportunity to know him, but I've always felt like it was a nice source of connection with that side of my family. And from what I do know about him, I think he and I have quite a few things in common. I really like the feeling of being able to carry parts of my family history , and my own personal history forward with me in my transition.

Alex: I, I liked having some continuity there with my names.

Jackal: Can you tell us a time that you hadn't expected to disclose your trans status, but you did, or you let it pass. Tell, tell us a story about what you did.

Alex: Struggling to think of one particular example because I think [01:09:00] as I mentioned, now, I do tend to disclose more from a place of intuition, and it's not always planned. Sometimes it's just what feels right in the moment, or it feels relevant. I think an interesting one, recently is that my older daughter her best friend at school we discovered that his dad was trans.

Alex: So we were all at the park together. And they were talking and I was like, okay, this is good. This is kind of weird if I don't say anything. So I ended up

Kai: How did it come up?

Alex: Something came up around like him being trans and I just was like, have to just jump in here.

Alex: And, and I was like, funny that cause I'm also trans. And

Jackal: at the, you're sitting at the playground, the kids are playing, Hey, my dad's trans. And you're like, wow. Well, interesting story there.

Alex: yeah, pretty much. Yeah. That was pretty much it. That was really random but a delightful moment. I think another big one for me actually that comes [01:10:00] to mind was going back to the sort of question of like, how do you tell someone when you have known them for many years?

Alex: So I had a mentor at work who actually was my first manager and then she quickly moved up in the organization and and she had, she's just like a phenomenal leader who had influenced me so much. And had started , to bring more of herself to work and be providing leadership around anti racism and inclusion and sharing more of her own experiences as a Black woman who had come to Canada as a refugee.

Alex: And I just had so much I was so inspired by the way that she would, tell her story and bring that lived experience to, to the workplace. And We were having a conversation one day, and we were talking about some of the organizational commitments around inclusion, and one of them is around trans inclusion in our organization, and [01:11:00] I just hadn't planned it, and I just told her that I was trans, because I had never planned come up before and I told her and it was a big moment for both of us like and

Kai: How did she respond, Alex?

Alex: She was a little shocked at first, and then was moved to tears that I had shared something so personal with her, and she just, told me she was very honored that I had chosen to share that with her, and she's just been, a tremendous support of, of mine, had been previously, but now is able to support me in an even more, holistic way, and that's led to To a deepening of our relationship where I have been able to go to her now for mentorship around how do I navigate if I disclose or don't disclose in the workplace and that kind of thing.

Alex: It was a positive, but it was moved for me, but it was also kind of scary in the moment because that was the first person I just had disclosed to at work.

Kai: Yeah, that's a really great story. And you're talking about two very different things. You're talking about someone with you work with, that you've known for a long time, you hold her in high regard. We want [01:12:00] her to think the best of you and you shared something and it was such a beautiful, that's a beautiful story of her response.

Kai: I'm so honored that sounds wonderful. And then you're also contrasting it with this, , I'm in a playground this somehow got dropped in. Oh, by the way, here we go. We're faced with these. These decisions all the time. I was walking my dog yesterday and this dude comes up with four mini doodles and I have a big doodle. And he's like, I always wanted one big one. I'm like, well, if we add four together, you got one. And I looked up from where I was picking up poop and it's like, that's a trans dude.

Kai: And it's almost like we saw each other. He's a baby trans, right? I met a baby trans. Like I'm just some old fart. So I don't know if people read me or not, but I could have just dropped, like, dude, are you trans or I'm trans or whatever. But I'm picking up dog poop. I'm occupied.

Kai: Also part of me doesn't want to let him know I maybe read him, you know?

Jackal: Goes into our next questions, huh Kai?

Kai: it is. So like many of us have joked, Alex, that we want to have some sort of code so we can communicate with each other. [01:13:00] When you don't personally know someone but you know or suspect they're trans mask, when you meet them or see them, how do you typically respond?

Alex: Yeah, so I think on this one, I try to treat people the way I would want to be treated and so personally, I would never just directly go up to somebody that I don't know and ask if they were trans, because I think I would feel uncomfortable if somebody did that to me

Alex: I can't infer what that person's relationship is to visibility, right?

Alex: So, it could bring up a whole spectrum of potential reactions for them. So I just, you know, I think if I were to want to open that space, of connection, I would probably take the lead by disclosing myself, right? So rather than asking, I would start by telling, and that way I've made myself, equally vulnerable, and they can choose if they want to meet me there because disclosure is just such a personal thing, and some people may feel insecure or upset if they read as trans, right? And there can be aspects of privilege at play, based on people's ability [01:14:00] to access surgery and hormones and maybe they're stealth or maybe they're totally out and comfortable and they'd be excited about it. I just don't know. So personally, I would not take the risk. But in instances like, where I think there's an opportunity for friendship or connection or that kind of thing like if it's not a total stranger then I would yeah I'd probably try to find an opportunity to open that door you know using by putting my own foot forward first so

Kai: And I think, I want to be sensitive to the fact that this person may not want anyone to think that they're trans too, , so you're bringing up all these really nice points about where the other person sits and also there are opportunities for us to connect with each other that, that may not happen. So you've just connected with your kid's best friend's parents. He just somehow came out that he's trans. And now you have this. commonality. You're in on this news for each other, something very private. Do you feel there's potential to [01:15:00] connect more because of it?

Kai: Or do you have any goal to do that?

Alex: oh yeah yeah yeah no we've become good friends with them . We had really liked them anyway before but then it was suddenly like we have this Extra thing in common and it just brought us closer for sure.

Kai: That's cool. Thank you for sharing that. Those are great stories.. I don't know if this ever happens for you, but how do you feel when you get clocked by another trans person or trans mass person?

Alex: It's actually never happened to me.

Kai: Okay. All right, so we're moving right along.

Jackal: Okay, just pause for a second because that's a big deal, right? Because people like us who have a ton of passing privilege, we don't get clocked. And then this guy that Kai met, dog pooping. Dog picking a poop. You know, one of the things that came up for me in your story, Kai, was not only he might not want to be read as trans, if he is trans, and in the beginning stages of trans, I remember how important it was for me to just be read as male.

Kai: Yep.

Jackal: [01:16:00] You know, it's not that you don't want to bond with somebody over being trans. It's that you are embarrassed that they're reading you , you haven't been read as completely male yet. That's the issue for me, right?

Jackal: Like, I don't want to embarrass somebody

Kai: Yeah. And I don't know if this was true for you, but I was so fucking awkward when I was starting out when I was very ambiguous. Some people find great comfort in that with fucking with people. I was really insecure about that and I didn't feel comfortable at all when I was really newly transitioning and If anybody could read me as it were and I think I want to be really mindful of that too.

Kai: You're touching on that really nicely, Jackal. So Alex, how would you suggest another person who knows you or knows of you approach you if they want to connect because they are trans?

Alex: I guess It's a pretty open ended question. So it probably is like a question of do they want to connect? And so there could be a variety of [01:17:00] reasons, if they're a younger person and they're looking for some kind of role model or mentorship relationship, or is it because they're looking for a friendship or what have https: otter.

Alex: ai

Alex: as a point of commonality, right?

Jackal: Good point. I like that.

Alex: yeah, so in my experience, like with my trans friends, you know, it's one common denominator, but often we have lots of other things in common as well, which form the basis of that friendship. And so yeah, I'd probably, I would say If they want to connect, well, I'd be curious to know how they know I'm trans and what that source of connection, is for how they know but yeah, I think it would just probably just reach out and say they're looking to connect and this is why I think in a work context it's a little bit different for me, I started to be more out at work, I participated in the Trans Day of Remembrance ceremony , this [01:18:00] past year and gave one of the keynote addresses and I, I did disclose during that, for example, there were a couple of hundred people, it was virtual, but, so I don't know who was there, but at least a couple of hundred people, so if somebody wanted to connect with me after that because they have a trans kid or they're questioning or they're trans or whatever I'd be very open to that Yeah,

Jackal: Right.

Kai: Those are beautiful moments. Thank you. Thank you very much. Are the trans friends that you have, are they close in experience? You transitioned 20 years ago, you're 40. Do you have folks that you can relate to who are your same age or do you have older friends who transitioned around the same time?

Kai: What's your peer group like?

Alex: yeah, it's kind of a mixed bag there's like a cohort of guys online some of whom I've never met in real life, but we connected online Honestly, 25 years ago almost right and we still follow each other , we're not on Livejournal anymore, but we're on Instagram or whatever, right?

Alex: And like, we've followed each other through so many different moments in life. And that's, I actually love that. [01:19:00] It's just cool to have that continuity. But in terms of my, my more actual close real life friends. It's a mix. I have a couple of friends who I've known since I was 18 years old.

Alex: Most of them don't live in Toronto cause I wasn't living here then, but my closest friends who do live in Toronto are a little bit younger than me actually, who are trans and I feel that I come from a different generation from them.

Kai: That's interesting. That's really interesting. I just was wondering because you were talking about how you feel in some ways. It wasn't the word envious. I want to say really aware of the differences now and the access now to care , I'm so glad it's easier and shout out to folks in Canada, making it easier to get gender affirming care. We had Rupert Raj on the show. We've had Lucas on the show. We've had others, and to the folks in the U S and abroad.

Kai: I really want to thank you so much for your time today and thank you for your openness and really wonderful storytelling and sharing your experiences with us, Alex. It's been really fruitful conversation today.[01:20:00]

Alex: It's been a pleasure. Thanks. Thanks so much for having me.

Jackal: No, thank you. Thank you very much.​

Jackal: Hey, Kai. So we just interviewed Alex. What did you think? Shout

Kai: us and one, thanks for your support, Alex. Shout out to listeners everywhere. Thank you. And if you're interested in being a guest on our show, let us know. You can send us a message the thing that I'm thinking about right now is his discussion around the importance of language, and how he nerds out on language and how it evolves over time, and staying abreast of things as it were.

Kai: And it made me think about something, One of the things that I found great comfort in my transition and throughout the years in discussing and connecting with our own generation of F2Ms, right, trans men, was feeling comfort in knowing that I could use the word brother, that we share brotherhood.

Kai: You know, so it'd be like, [01:21:00] thank you, my brother. I love you, my brother. Or using that word, brother. And I've caught myself a few times off handedly doing that with younger folks, transition folks that are trans masc, and I stopped and I said, I hope it's okay that I said that, I've, I've texted my mentee, like, Ooh, hope it's okay that I said that.

Kai: And, and he wrote back and said, I was overjoyed,

Jackal: Wow.

Kai: okay, cool. I just want to make sure I don't want to make assumptions about your identity because it's one of those things old people can learn, but I can, I also feel a little bit of sadness because I thought it was such a special thing and now I just have to shift and we're siblings, siblings are great.

Kai: That was just, that was one of the things that just popped in. How about you?

Jackal: One of the things that reflected for me was, in the bonus questions. And that's about how we approach each other when we think somebody might be trans or when they think we're trans. [01:22:00] And because our podcast is called stealth, we've talked a lot about how we navigate disclosure, , all the time. And it is one of those Bittersweet kind of things how many opportunities am I missing okay. So I just got a new job and

Jackal: it's great. But one of the people in the facilities department. Has a curly mustache like I do, right? He also has a Marilyn piercing that you can see above , his full twirly mustache. And so he just looks like a cool guy that I would want to know. End statement, right?

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: He has a voice, quote unquote.

Jackal: So his voice leads me to believe that he might be trans, and I am at work so I don't know, I mean, I'd like to just get to know him better in general. I've only been at my job for two weeks, so I'm [01:23:00] brand new, from what I understand, he's new too, so I'm just trying to pace myself as far as how do I get to know this person better, period.

Jackal: But also, how do I reach the subject of potentially transgender in the mix kind of thing. Because it's specifically this guy passes. You would never know in a million years if he was trans, for all intents and purposes, he's cisgender. And he might be, but he does have a register of voice that would lead me to believe that he might potentially be trans.

Jackal: And I want to know.

Kai: Why do you want to

Jackal: I want to know. I want to know because, because I'm new to the area. I moved for this job and, and I would like to have community. I would like to have people, even if, I don't know what, if there is quote unquote community where I'm at. But, I would like to at least know, A person, a few people, because it [01:24:00] helps, it really helps.

Jackal: I'm of the generation. I'm not completely online. I know kids today can just live off of their computer and never, or their phones or whatever, and never really meet people, but I am a face to face kind of guy. I like that personal interaction. So yeah, I'd like to know because if it's not, it's okay.

Jackal: I'm thinking he and I could probably hit it off just as buddies anyway, but it would add an extra layer that I would appreciate. So I want to know.

Kai: you're kind of giving people maybe an urge to Check out our membership program because we talk a lot about this, about our own experiences of like, when do we disclose because we think someone else might be trans or not sure how do we approach people, and we were talking about signifiers and representation, and I have a shirt that says protect, protect trans kids, that actually can invite conversation, and when I'm wearing a hoodie with a zip, sometimes I'll zip it up just to keep myself safe, but there are other times where I'm intentional about [01:25:00] it, and I think sometimes, workplaces may have restrictions around attire and any kind of messaging.

Kai: But, there are some signifiers because I think you're right representation matters, whether you're putting a queer flag of , some variety on your desk or something like that.

Jackal: Well, one of the things that happened was that they were rearranging my office and putting in a desk and moving the whiteboard and the whiteboard already had some stickers on it. I put them up with magnets and it was like the coexist one that has the different, symbols

Jackal: But one of them was like obvious trans colors that says trans resistance, it's tiny. It was the size of my palm kind of thing. And he was waiting for his co worker to help him take down the board and move things around, bigger than a one person job. But he was standing there in my office, looking at the board, twirling his mustache,? And I wondered what he was thinking, you know? So I just came in and I said, Oh, you're twirling, you must be in deep contemplation because you're twirling your [01:26:00] mustache and he's like, you have one too kind of thing.

Jackal: And that's, that's as far as the conversation went. But I really did want to know, like, which of those stickers was he focused on, right? What was he looking at? So anyways, yeah join our membership. We have exciting, interesting questions, um,

Kai: So like regarding Alex's comments about colleagues and connecting with people and living in and out of being more disclosing and less disclosing. And at this point, he's in a place where he's really feeling a lot more comfort and being more, more present, and more out and he's described some of those decisions along the way.

Kai: I really appreciated how he was talking about that sense of obligation, how he's inspired by role models like Janice mock and others who are more out about it and feels that way. And even mentioned our podcast. So he's very sweet,

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: I do think it's a question of judgment and I really appreciated how he and his partner made [01:27:00] conscientious decisions about being open with their children

Jackal: children.

Kai: and making decisions together about that. And then recognizing that once you do that, the messaging there is so important that you're not, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

Kai: It's a normal thing. It's his, their dad's experience. It's not to be a shameful thing. And so sharing that openly from the get go, I think is that's a really bold thing, particularly considering his history where he was talking about being more reserved

Jackal: Mm.

Kai: Who you tell and trying to guard that knowledge so much and wondering who's going to say something to somebody if you let the cat out of the bag and that, that stress really hit me hard, what he was talking about.

Kai: [01:28:00] Okay.

Jackal: that stress that came with when to disclose, how to disclose, who to disclose to, who knew, um, you know, is a function of transphobia in the world and how I've internalized that.

Jackal: And, I feel so much better just being like, the default is trans rather than the default is cis. That has helped me. Yeah, it was a great, this season has been all about so many people have reached out to us. It's very exciting. I really appreciate that.

Jackal: I hope that more people continue to do that. Reach out to us and we'll make the show happen more.

Kai: Yeah. And thanks to Alex. And for those of you in the Northern part of the continent, please continue to reach out to us and abroad. We would love to have people from outside North America, contact us to be guests on the show. And really thank you, Alex, for all of you done and for your academic work [01:29:00] and for reaching out to us and your support of the show.

Kai: Thanks for being a part of the STP family. In today's Transponder segment, we want to highlight chef Marcel Afram, a Palestinian transgender DC based chef who co founded Hospitality for Humanity, pledging food and hospitality industry workers to publicly demand a ceasefire in Gaza and to support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions, BDS movement.

Kai: The pledge has garnered over 1, 100 signatures. And provided education on Israeli's weaponization of food and hunger tactics against Palestinians. During a month long dinner series called Tadhaman, meaning solidarity in Arabic, Afram calls attention to the harsh reality that Palestinians in Gaza are being starved to death by the Israeli blockade and violently cut off from the access to food that sustains them.

Kai: While this highlight might not obviously be about trans joy, Afram [01:30:00] states, my self expression as Palestinian came about because I found myself as a trans person. I was so far removed from my identity even as an Arab person. So this evolution has a lot to do with me unlearning the biases that were impressed on me as I am reclaiming my narrative.

Kai: Well, we applaud you, Marcel. Congratulations on all you have accomplished and keep claiming and reclaiming. Your voice. Thank you again to Kira for rounding up this week's Transponder Trans Joy Moments. Stay positive out there. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact Kira at our Instagram page at Transmasculine Podcast.

Kai: We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight, their Expertise and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today, Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for [01:31:00] listening to today's podcast.

Kai: Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority.

Kai: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories.

Kai: We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, we monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare [01:32:00] time.

Kai: As we enter season four, we are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside entity.

Kai: Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know your feedback and support are essential to our show success. Help podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media and rate us on your favorite streaming platform.

Kai: You can find us on Instagram, Transmaskingpodcast, on X, formerly Twitter. At podcast stealth on YouTube stealth, the trans masculine podcast, and be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast. com. Thank you for joining [01:33:00] us.