Trystan Reese is a queer transgender man living in Portland, Oregon with his partner and their three kids. Two of his children are adopted; he gave birth to his youngest child in 2017. He wrote a book about his experience; it’s called How We Do Family. A project of Collaborate Consulting, Trans Fertility Co. is the brainchild of trans gestational parent and fertility educator Trystan Reese. After going through his own pregnancy with little access to data on trans fertility, he committed himself to building resources for trans people and their supporters.

Trystan Non Member Interview

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back. We're excited to be entering our fourth season of Stealth, a trans masculine podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. It's amazing to us that we are still going strong after two years and we'll be featuring our 50th episode this season.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to that, our stories are very often

Kai: overlooked. We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. [00:01:00] Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways. As

Jackal: humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post

Kai: transition. If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a [00:02:00] living community. We are healthy. We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Kai: Hey, Kai here. I just want to wish everybody a Happy New Year and Lead you to our website, transmasculinepodcast. com so you can become a member and get extra content including Adam's all about Adam segment and the transmasculine history segment this episode Adam does a stellar job at talking about Billy Tipton And if you don't know much about Billy Tipton, you're really going to want to tune into this episode.

Kai: We also want to give a big shout out to our friend Tuck Woodstock at the Gender Reveal Podcast. If you haven't listened to Tuck's podcast, you really should. you can find information about Tuck's podcast at genderpodcast. com. The Gender Reveal Podcast explores the vast diversity of trans experiences through interviews with a wide array of trans, non [00:03:00] binary, and two spirit people.

Kai: So I'm just going to tell you now, as an old fart, walking my dog, listening to Tuck's podcast, every time I listen to it, I feel out of touch and not hip. It's really nice to get some insight into what Newer and earlier transitioning and academics and researchers and librarians or artists and creative types are talking about and exploring gender and just really pushing the limits.

Kai: So I really appreciate the work that Tuck's doing and you should tune in to the gender reveal podcast, gender podcast. com. Thanks everybody.

Kai: All right, Jekyll. So welcome back to the podcast. We've had a bit of a break from each other from our fabulous show. So how were there's your holidays? How was your family time? How are you doing?

Jackal: Yeah. Um, I am doing great actually. Like I had a pretty couple of rough months before, [00:04:00] uh, 2023 ended. Um, job searching and just stress and financial worries and things like that.

Jackal: But I spent six weeks with my sister and my brother. I spent four weeks in Kentucky with my sister. I had a really, really good time and It just gave me kind of a, um, a recentering so that I could be calm and like kind of get rid of, not, not get rid of the anxiety, but, uh, be able to cope with the anxiety and feel more centered and feel more positive and things like that, which I think really helped.

Jackal: Even in my job search, you know, like putting out, Oh, it's really funny. Like it might sound woo woo, but you know, like when you put out negative energy, but you get back negative energy. And so it's like, even though I was writing the like daily twice a day, three times a day, putting out resumes, I was getting like all of [00:05:00] these rejections and, and once I started feeling more centered and positive.

Jackal: Um, I think it came through in my, my resume doesn't change, right? Like, but maybe like, I don't know, like the positive way that I'm writing my cover letter or something. I got five interviews. Wow. Yeah. Just this last week, I've had one interview per day. It's been a very positive 2024. That's

Kai: a great tackle.

Kai: Can I, can I jump in and just say, we are putting the woo back in woo woo today. And while I am a therapist, I'm not terribly woo all the time. I really do appreciate energy and what you put out there in the universe. And I think there's a shared connection between us all. So I'm really glad that things have.

Kai: You know, improve for you and that you feel more grounded. It sounds like you sort of have accepted where you're at and it's like, I'm going to just do it day by day, you know?

Jackal: Yeah. You know, it's funny. I'm not sure. I think Adam did a [00:06:00] piece on this a little bit. Cause he's a little woo woo too. Yeah, he is.

Jackal: I love, I love Adam's woo woo anyway. Um, uh, and. And he was talking about meditation and kind of letting go of the past and, uh, and not being defined by your past and not, uh, investing in the future. Right? Which is hard to do when you're in a job search, search situation. I'm investing in my future, putting my resume out there, but in the meantime, like day-to-Day, like I would take time to kind of meditate.

Jackal: And center myself and let go of the, the resumes that I put out there, not be connected or invested in the responses. I was going to get back and just be present in the moment, be present in my body, be present in my mind, be present in the day, enjoy the day and. Uh, I mean, this is an explicit podcast, so I'm going to say it fucking helped like,

Kai: how did you do it?

Kai: What does that mean to be present in the day and all that stuff? Well, I've done

Jackal: meditation for [00:07:00] off and on for years. Um, and so like, I would just take 10 minutes twice a day. And I would just sit there quietly and, um, just feel my body. So if I start by just centering myself and feeling my core and then being present.

Jackal: So I would listen to the things that were in, in the room, like whether that be my dog or the birds outside or. Whatever, like just pay attention to like, what's around me, the smells, like the feel of my fingertips touching my jeans, because I had, you know, whatever I had my hands on my lap, like just really basic, simple things of like being connecting my moment to the very, very present moment.

Jackal: And then I can get into, I can get into that's cool about it.

Kai: But like, yeah, no, that's, that's cool. I think. Often, we're all moving at a pretty fast pace in this world and there's so much [00:08:00] stimulation to get us distracted, whether it's an online situation, social media, or all the different devices and we're plugged in a lot and I think you're right.

Kai: Just putting into practice, it sounds really simple, but you're. doing mindfulness exercises and you're becoming aware of what's happening in front of you. I have been trying to do more of that too. And one of the things that I was doing when I was walking my dog yesterday was I was just starting to think about the weekend.

Kai: I'm all excited about seeing you again. And we have an interview tomorrow and all that stuff. And then I was like, hi. You need to just chill them. It's not about, it's like noticing, okay, I'm doing that thing where I'm featuring. And now let me look at my dog's little ear as she walks. She's so soft. And then everything was good.

Kai: I just kept doing that. But one of the things that I found challenging with yoga was, I think I misunderstood. I like the physical and the mindfulness part together. So yoga is something that I've never been taught to do. It's all just through an app and lots of videos, but I noticed that my mind is just hanging.

Kai: Everywhere, [00:09:00] you know, I'm sitting there trying to just be like chilled out. My brain is just firing away and I used to think I'm not doing it right. But I think that's the point. My goal is not to quiet my mind. It's to just notice what it's doing and just let it happen. And that will hook into something, I guess, but that's something that thought people who did that could quiet their mind and have a singular focus.

Kai: And I don't know anybody who can do that, but it sounds, I actually

Jackal: can do that. It takes practice for sure. Yeah. And I think that you need to let yourself go through stages. It's like any kind of exercise, right? You're not going to be able to lift. Yeah. 50 pounds, if you have never done that before, you're not going to be able to run a marathon without practicing running.

Jackal: You have to build up to things. And so one of the first things for me, like I said, I've been doing this for years for me, it's the first stage is kind of letting go. Like you're right. Like I have a thought. Oh, that's a thought, but I'm not going to focus on it. I'm just going to notice it and let it go.

Jackal: And then other thoughts come in and you notice them and you [00:10:00] let them go. And pretty soon your mind can get clear. One of the things that I, I do is that I focus on, um, like my third eye kind of thing. And sometimes when you focus on your third eye, like it goes inwards and it causes, it kind of causes you a headache, but if you.

Jackal: Think about your third eye, like your actual vision and you like projected outward. It's amazing what you kind of gather in through your secondary vision or your mental vision, or, you know, like the thing, it doesn't have to be completely clear and completely empty, but after practice, you can definitely get kind of a clearer, quieter mind.

Jackal: But when you talk about walking your dogs, like I have two dogs. Sometimes I don't do my meditation, like sitting in the chair and being quiet or whatever. Um, but I'll walk my dogs and I'm just present with my dogs. Like that's what the kind of mindfulness is in [00:11:00] that moment. Okay. Like, I'm not stressing that they're not coming.

Jackal: I'm not stressing that they're pulling me. I'm not stressing that they're smelling something here or, Oh, you know, I have to pick up their poop or whatever. It's just being in the moment and, and really not. Defining myself by the past and not stressing or even getting excited about like you're talking about the future, right?

Jackal: Like, Oh, I'm going to say hi today, you know, or whatever.

Kai: I noticed when my brain is scattered and I'm thinking about lots of things while walking my dog and I'm distracted by that, my dog is behavior gets a little bit more. You know, and that's an interesting thing, right? We've got this leash connection and just hopefully I think other connections, but I do notice that when I'm distracted and scattered, that she meanders all over and does more things that are a little bit.

Kai: Harder to manage like pooling or lunging for something that I didn't see. So pretty good at squirrels. I really appreciate that you had a [00:12:00] really nice time with your family and in the South. And as a trans person, what was that like? Can you, can I know we're talking a little longer than we typically do, but it's the new year.

Kai: It's our first time back. What was it like being down South?

Jackal: Well, I was in Kentucky and then I was in Texas. Yeah, it's outside. It's. Okay. This is the passing privilege, right? Like you just don't notice you don't get outed. I don't draw attention because I'm, I just look like an average cisgender

white

Kai: guy, right?

Kai: Even with your mustache that's waxed and

Jackal: curling up. People love my mustache in the South. People love my mustache, especially Texas, you know, like, wow. Oh, oh yeah. They'd love it. So I get, I get attention for that, but it's not negative attention. It's like, Oh, you're so cute. Like, Oh, how'd you get that one?

Jackal: And you know, what, what wax do you use as a trans person? It doesn't, it hasn't really, um, impacted me. [00:13:00] I do notice, and I do try to look up the anti trans legislations that are going on in those states before I go, but I'm not personally impacted by them the way other people would be. So for me, it was, it was fine.

Jackal: Like I just enjoyed my time and,

Kai: um, That's good. I just keep thinking back to our talks with Tristan in season two and his projecting that the anti trans legislation wasn't going to stop with. kids or wasn't going to stop here and they're going to come after gender affirming care in general. And they certainly are doing that again.

Kai: I want to thank you to all the people who are doing advocacy for us and for reporting on it and for keeping it straight with us as it were. And I'm going to shift gears just a little bit before we go into today's. Discussion. But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

Jackal: wait, wait. How was your

Kai: holiday? I I'm going to talk to you about that.

Kai: Yeah. So, so I had a great time. [00:14:00] We hosted here. We did celebrate Christmas and we had Thanksgiving too. So it was a lot of. A lot of hosting, which I really like to do. My family came for Christmas. My dad flew up 93 year old dad. And then we had other adults who had some mobility issues. So we had to clear all the rugs out of the house and really get it.

Kai: So it's as safe as possible. And we had good, really good food and really good time. It was pretty chill. I had cooked everything in advance for Christmas, but it was really nice. I was thinking about our birthdays. And this ties into our earlier conversation about how you think about the world in time and life, because we just had a pretty big birthday before a really big milestone of a new decade.

Kai: I definitely have noticed some angst, some little twinges as I sit there and think for one of the first times. Now the clock is shorter on the [00:15:00] other end. Oh yeah. So now I'm like, I might have, okay, granted we could die at any time. We could kick it like right now. Right. So every day is precious. And it's like our days are on this side of it.

Kai: We're post middle age. Like I think we're like upper middle age. We're three quarters middle age. I know. It's so strange. Three quarters old. Yeah. Like there's an expiry date, you know, occasionally I'll just go, Oh God, there could be 10, 20, 30 years, maybe 35.

Jackal: I know, but I mean, think about it. This, this is even worse, right?

Jackal: It's like eight years to retirement.

Kai: Well, I don't know if I'll ever be able to retire, but

Jackal: the retirement age, we

Kai: got eight, we got less than a decade to retirement age.

Jackal: Like that's, that's a trip, right? That's a trip. No matter how many years I have left after that, or even if it gets cut, cut short, you know, like.

Jackal: There's less than a [00:16:00] decade. So it's like, when I'm thinking about my job stuff or two, it's like, I'm thinking like, well, okay, like where do I want to be in eight years? What's it going to look like?

Kai: Yeah, exactly. I think that, and again, it's sort of an exercise in, you know, just valuing what's in front of us.

Kai: Like, gratitude, like I feel extreme gratitude to be here to have. As far as I know, everything's on point with my body and my health and just take it, take it as it comes. But that did occur to me and happy birthday. I hope you had a good time. I had a good time. I had a great, can I tell you about my birthday before we go?

Kai: Of course. Okay. Before we switch gears. My sister was here. One of my sisters. I have three lovely sisters. So that was one of the takeaways that family, like you're talking about your family and spending time with siblings. If you have siblings and you happen to have a lovely siblings like I do, it can be so nice.

Kai: It can be so incredibly nice. One of my sisters cooked pizza, like a champ for everybody on Christmas Eve and had brought everything down, like six different types of dough. We did not miss out on food. My [00:17:00] other sister brought my dad up here, took care of him, like so much work that they put into it. I did the least amount of work.

Kai: I just basically had the house there and I had a great time. And on my birthday, um, Got up, went to coffee, joined a gym, which I've been wanting to do for ages, but I hadn't done since pandemic. And I've been missing working out like with other people. It helps motivate me. So I went to work out with my sister.

Kai: We used to do that all the time. We worked out, we went to Powell's books, which was this amazing, huge bookstore. It's a Northwest institution. It's a Portland landmark. It's. Three or four stories, it's an old timey bookstore with used books and new books. I spent a lot of time there and got some books. And then we went to grab a beer and some barbecue before we went roller skating.

Jackal: Did you do the quads, the fours, or did you do rollerblading?

Kai: Fours. Yeah, I don't know how to do the twos. I used to get along on roller skates. Cause I told you I wasn't like the cool kid in high school. I didn't have a car. I roller skated to school. Not cool at all. Back [00:18:00] in the day, we roller skated and there were probably five of us and it's at the largest roller rink, this side of the Mississippi purportedly, and they had an organ playing music from the forties and fifties, which I wasn't terribly fond of cause they had a David Bowie night this week, but it was so much fun.

Kai: I had the best day. And then after that, we went and got a drink. So it was like a full, but chill day. That was the perfect day. It was spontaneous. And the only thing we had planned was the roller skating and it was so much fun. Did you do anything special on your birthday?

Jackal: Well, I actually cooked all day on my birthday.

Jackal: I did the, uh, the Christmas dinner early. Um, so we had a turkey, um, me and my brother and, uh, his girlfriend. And I did stuffing and mashed potatoes and Rolls and it was very small, like it wasn't the full on green meat casserole and yams and everything because there's only three of us, right? It was kind of a mini [00:19:00] Christmas dinner, but I did it early so that, uh, we could watch football because my brother's a huge football fan.

Jackal: I think I've said this before and, uh, it's a way we bond. Uh, so, so we, um, So we watched football, you know, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and my birthday was on the Friday. So it worked out really well. Um, except that I had to cook. I mean, it was fine, but it's a lot of work. Yeah. New job. So that's what I did on my birthday.

Jackal: It was very nice. It was very quiet. Oh, yeah. And my brother also has a, a model train, like we've been train thing for quite a while. So we worked on that, which is always fun for me, like doing the landscape and, and he's kind of got like a, a Utah kind of, uh, the, the red mountains, kind of sculpted mountains.

Jackal: Theme going on. So I've been sculpting landscape for that. He's got two tunnels on it and we finally finished the second tunnel. It was very, very cool. [00:20:00] I agree having siblings that you can trust and relate to and just have a good time with and just be yourself is, is really a blessing. It's really. It's really a gift.

Jackal: So I'm glad that you had a good birthday.

Kai: Happy birthday. You too. You too. And you're right. Cooking a big meal for folks is a lot of work. It's a lot of fun and I really enjoy it. And I also, it's a good chunk of time, you know,

Jackal: especially when you're cooking a turkey,

Kai: right? Yeah. Yeah. You got to get that right and get a

Jackal: long enough and make sure that it's like.

Jackal: You know, cooked at the right time, like the right time. So everything else isn't cold by the time you get it

Kai: at whatever. So yeah, I fucked up a Turkey years ago and I don't think I've ever lived it down. And every year it's like, are you sure it's cooked? I use a thermometer, but I almost killed us one year.

Kai: And then I put it out in the trash. Cause it was like, can't redeem it after it sat for hours and put it in the trash in New York city. And people would go through the trash and things like that. And this Turkey, somebody or some [00:21:00] critter or something pulled it out of the trash and they didn't even want to eat it.

Jackal: I thought you were going to say, like, you created like botulism

Kai: in a burrow. And I know really, I know maybe, but I had to pack it up really good and put it back in there. It happens that it got taken away. So we're going to talk about Tristan's interview. And I just want to say personally, I've known Tristan since Tristan was a baby trans, Tristan's words, not ours.

Kai: And he is from the Pacific Northwest and he's somebody that I've always just thought has Been an absolute teach and I love him. He's always who he is. And he talks about his experience of parenting and having a child out of his body and talks a lot about trans fertility. And there's going to be a resource that he's talking about that he's a part of and started.

Kai: Let's talk about trans fertility, Jekyll. Uh, what's on your mind about it?

Jackal: I don't really have a lot on my mind. [00:22:00] I might sound really basic, but for me, when trans guys wanted to, I think Matt was the first guy I ever knew that wanted to have a baby. And it was shocking to me. Like, it was shocking. Like, why, why, you know, like, why would you want to do that?

Jackal: Like, I don't think I've ever had like a, Oh, I want to have a baby kind of mentality, you know, as a woman, uh, or as an AFAB person. Um, so transitioning and then deciding to have a baby was it's always been shocking to me. It's always been shocking to me. And I admire people who do it because I think it's a big, it's a scary risk.

Jackal: Like it feels like a scary risk to me, to me, like to, you know, to have a body walking through the world in an anti trans. Environment Obviously not what you're expecting a pregnant body to look like, right? So I have a lot of admiration for [00:23:00] people who choose to do that. It's just not particularly what I would do with my body.

Kai: Yeah, I think you're right. My first recollection of a trans man having a body, post any medical intervention, like testosterone, was Matt. And Matt talked about his experience and how difficult it was for him back in the day, and how the trans community came after him. That's absolutely my recollection as well, is that people were like, Why, why would you do this?

Kai: And it doesn't make sense. And maybe you're not a real trans guy and you're, you know, like whatever it is, you're going to harm your child. There's no data and things like that, you know, and he talked about that. Like people blamed him for a lot of things. There are certainly other trans men who had babies post transition.

Kai: And then we had the pregnant man, Thomas Bailey, who got a lot of press. It was on Oprah, things like that. And there have been several since then. And I think Tristan's work doing advocacy and outreach with medical providers, including gynecological, [00:24:00] gynecologists, oof, hard to say, is invaluable and trans fertility is something that is important no matter what your body and your history.

Kai: And there are lots and lots of resources out there, which we can put on our website, because it's something to think about as you consider introducing hormones. There really isn't research on us. Um, and it, it, it's possible to do it. They talk about trans feminine women and sperm production. If you're a person who can produce sperm and if you introduce estrogen, what that can do to your testes and things like that.

Kai: So there's lots of valuable information on that website that we'll share. And also about trans men. And just so you know, if you're trans man with ovaries, whether or not you have testosterone, you still could be ovulating. So if you're having. PIV sex with a sperm producing person, you can get pregnant. So just be, be aware of that.

Jackal: Matt said that. And that, again, like it's because it's not my interest, like I feel really ignorant about it. So [00:25:00] like, when he said that I was like. Really? That's interesting. Uh, it hasn't had to be a worry of mine, but, uh, Yeah. But, yeah, take care of yourselves, right? I advocate safe sex in general just because of sexually transmitted diseases, especially, and not just HIV, but like all kinds of things that Yeah.

Jackal: people can get and pass along. Fertility wise too, like if you're not planning on having a baby, like, you know, be, be careful.

Kai: Yeah, exactly. Planning. And particularly because healthcare, as we're circling back again, healthcare in this country for trans people and for reproductive care, family planning, there are people trying to legislate.

Kai: Those rights away from us on a, on a bright note, back full circle. Tristan is delightful. He is storytelling is delightful. You're going to get a lot of information about his experience and having a baby and being partnered and all the things. So it's a great interview. We're really happy to have him on the show today.

Jackal: Welcome back to 2024

Kai: guys. [00:26:00] Welcome back, everybody. Here we go.

Adam: Today's interview is with Tristan Rees. Tristan is a queer, transgender man living in Portland, Oregon with his partner and their three kids. Two of his children are adopted. He gave birth to his youngest child in 2017. He wrote a book about his experience. It's called How We Do Family. Tristan's traniversary is 2002, the same as Sean, Mitch, and one of our many Jacks, so go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that year.

Adam: We'll lead in this episode with another musical masterpiece by Ed Vargas band, Eddie and the Heartbeats top down in

Jackal: Hey, welcome back everybody. Today's interview is with Trystan. How you doing today? Tristan?

Trystan: Good, how are you all doing?

Jackal: Good, thank you. Very good. You know Kai, right? Like you've known Kai for a while. Do you want to tell us how you met

Trystan: Sure, yeah, since I was a baby trans. Yeah, and I don't remember exactly, probably some FTM meetup group in [00:27:00] Portland a million years ago. Is that right, Kai?

Kai: Yeah, I think so. It was either Portland or Seattle or Olympia. I don't remember exactly, but it was up here for sure. Yeah.

Trystan: And when I think about the, I'm so sorry to, to date you Kai, but when I think about like the generation of trans men before me who really, I think showed me love and care and support and and, you know, really showed up for me unconditionally when I was young and figuring things out, you know, Kai, I think is is definitely in that group.

Jackal: Nice. That's sweet.

Kai: Thank you. That's very sweet. I do remember you as a baby trans. I think I met you before you were even 20. I met you at least you were 19 or 18

Trystan: That is absolutely possible. Yeah.

Kai: You were kind enough to, I remember you came up to Olympia to speak in my class

Trystan: Sounds like something I would do. I don't think I remember that, that particular thing, but yeah.

Kai: It was great. It's nice to see you again

Jackal: Sweet. Tristan, how did you learn about trans masculine identities?

Trystan: the first trans guy I met, [00:28:00] I went away to college when I was 16. I was a strange teenager, as we've already established. And I went to a lesbian Avengers party in Corvallis, and there was somebody there who You know, looked to me as a 16 year old or 17 year old around that age, you know, looked to me like a boy or a young man.

Trystan: And then when this person spoke, their voice was, you know, what I would have clocked as a little more feminine and that sort of like disconnect between what my eyes were seeing and what my ears were hearing they're just something clicked in my head and I was like, Oh my God, you know? And so that's when I first learned that whatever I had thought was always wrong with me or broken with me was neither wrong nor broken. I just didn't have words for it up until then. And And I ended up, talking to that person and the, and he was actually Micah Bizant, who is now like, you know, the Micah, who is this [00:29:00] really the artist for social justice, queer movements trans movements.

Trystan: And obviously this is like 20 years ago. So he was just Micah back then, but. But yeah, that's when I first met someone and everything started to click into place and then I'm a big nerd and so I did a bunch of reading and and it wasn't, an identity that I claimed for a couple of years after that. I was so young, you know, just trying to figure it out.

Jackal: Right. Totally. Well then tell us a little bit about how you did pursue your own transition. What was it like? How did you do it?

Trystan: Yeah. I mean, it was, it's funny cause you know, before we started, you asked like, what year did you start transitioning? And I said, Oh, you know, 2002 ish, because it was a real journey. There were not particularly like well worn paths at that time. And so I started performing as a drag King, actually. It was an all ages queer dance club here in Portland.

Trystan: And so I started as a drag king. I'd come from the world of [00:30:00] theater that had been really where I'd found my people in my very small town growing up. And the more I dressed up like as a man and did drag, the more I wanted that to be my thing.

Jackal: hmm. Mm

Trystan: you know, the, the sadder I got at the end of the night when I like whatever washed off my fake mustache and beard and you know, all of that. And so just so slowly over time, I asked my drag community to start calling me he him which they were happy to do. I started shifting over to my drag name full time, which at the time was not Tristan, but this quickly became Tristan.

Trystan: Yeah, and I had wanted to transition hormonally. I was really worried about my singing voice. So I talked to a bunch of guys and they had said that, yes, your voice changes a lot. And I was really worried as a performer that my voice was going to change. Yeah, I started. Now, looking back, I'm like, Oh, I was buying hormones on the black market.

Trystan: At the time, it was [00:31:00] just like when my friends had extras, they gave it to me. You know what I mean? In retrospect, that was not great, but at the time it just felt like what was possible. And it wasn't another few years before I actually like. Saw a therapist and went to the doctor. I got into performing arts school.

Trystan: And so once I, once that happened, I was like, okay, I want to transition in school so I can have professionals helping me with my singing voice. So I don't end up sounding like Tom Waits or whatever at the end.

Jackal: Tom Waits has an amazing voice, by the way

Trystan: It's amazing.

Jackal: don't knock Tom Waits.

Trystan: not at all. It was more like if you learn how to play a flute and then someone gives you a bass, like I don't know what to do with that instrument

Jackal: Right. This is true. This is true

Trystan: And I spent all this time learning to play the flute. Do not take the flute away from me. You know what I mean? So that, that's more of what it was like for me. It was just like, Oh, what if it's, what if I don't know how to do it?

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah, interesting

Trystan: right. But as with most transition related things, it happened so slowly that it wasn't quite as jarring as I'd [00:32:00] expected it was going to be.

Kai: Did you find yourself impatient, like wanting things to happen faster?

Trystan: Of course, I mean, yes, of course, I would like shave my chin hairs and be like, come back, bring your friends, you know, but in a weird way, the fact that I waited to transition until I was in performing arts school meant that I transitioned in this very supportive, loving bubble. It was a tiny school I went to.

Trystan: I wanted to go to a really intimate program. So there was 30 other students in my class for two years, just 30 of us. And then further, they split each group, each class into two smaller groups. So it was really just me and 15 other 20 somethings, early twenties people who were in theater. You know, so like you couldn't have picked a better community of people and, and one of the men in my class had been in the military and so, you know, he said he went into the military without a beard. He came out with one because he shaved every day. So I was like, dope, I'll shave every day, you know, and so I kind of had these like, [00:33:00] I don't know, like cool cis male mentors in a way who had this kind of masculinity that was, you know, really lovely, even the The, you know, military vet, they were all just really, really wonderful cis dudes because they were in theater, you know?

Jackal: Cool. So how do you think your social standings like race, class, abilities, you know, your age impacted your ability to transition your fears about transitioning?

Trystan: Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question because the way that privilege works, you know, it's meant to be invisible. And so it's hard to say that my transition was easier because of my demographics when I don't have anything personally, I didn't do it any other way. You know, so if I'd been older, I don't know, would it have been easier or harder?

Trystan: Who's to say? If I had been a man of color, you know, all I can do is listen to my, you know, my friends stories and the stories of people that I know and have access to. And [00:34:00] it seems like it probably was deeply impacted by my whiteness. You know, my ability to freely transition , and find a community Where I didn't have, you know, ongoing persistent judgment being from a family that was Canadian, you know, Canadians are like neither liberal nor conservative. They're kind of like a little more like, I don't know, live and let live a little more libertarian in a way, but not in a gross way.

Jackal: Hmm.

Trystan: yeah. And so I think it definitely did impact. That it's just sometimes hard to put an exact finger on it. When we talk about like my fertility journey, that's where I've got some hard data about like, Oh yeah, being white hugely impacted my ability to build a family, like no question, but early transition, it's hard to say.

Kai: So back in the day you were clearly connected to people who were performers, who were artists, who were other trans and maybe along the gender spectrum. What were some of the things you were told about how to [00:35:00] live your life as a trans person?

Trystan: Yeah, it's so funny. We just saw Matilda the musical yesterday, me and two of my three kids and my six year old was quoting the line from the play. It was the best of times. It was the worst of times, which is obviously quoting a novel as well. And he's like, that doesn't make any sense. And I was trying to explain to him that it does because there are so many points in history where there are high highs and low lows all happening at the same time and where some people are having great experiences and other people are having really truly horrific experiences. And I think my early transition was like that. I had the high highs of having Kai and others like Kai in my life who had this little bubble of like, Hey, dude, like, you don't have to be any kind of way you can just show up and that's fine and you don't have to be sure and you don't have to be like super masculine and you don't have to like girls like none of that is important. And it sounds so quaint now, but those were the messages I was getting outside of that tiny little bubble.[00:36:00] Most of the messages I was getting was that I was too fem, too gay to ever possibly be trans. I would never pass. My voice would never sound like a man and they were kind of right in that way. My voice never really did get to the Tom Waits place.

Jackal: You sound like one of the RuPaul's drag races Queens. So

Trystan: I do.

Jackal: like a man to me,

Trystan: Yes, a certain kind of man. I definitely get mammed on the phone, whatever, I'm, I'm too old to get upset about any of those things but, but those voices of like, you know, You'll never dot, dot, dot, you'll never look like a man sound like a man, et cetera. Those were really powerful and unfortunately I think that they kind of wove their way into my DNA as a human, as they those kinds of things still come up all these years later you know I'm 41 and whatever I heard 20 years ago or, those things still kind of persist.

Trystan: Yeah, so some really amazing positive things and a [00:37:00] lot of pretty brutal stuff.

Kai: And you mentioned that back then, what I recall is it was transgressive to be a gay trans guy or someone on the trans masc sex spectrum. We wanted to like have sex or be with guys, , like whether that was another trans person or a cis person that was actually pretty transgressive. What was that like for you back then? It sounds like you were clear about where you were headed or who you were attracted to.

Trystan: Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a choice, , I tried to date girls, but it was like kissing my sister, you know, there was just nothing there. It's not that I didn't like them. They seemed great. And they were very pretty that I just didn't have that attraction, you know? I don't know, for me, I was like, what am I supposed to do? I've only ever been interested in boys and then men.

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Trystan: You know, so I wasn't trying to be transgressive or radical or anything. It was just like, I don't know what to tell y'all, but it was very hard. Like, I remember, you know, falling for [00:38:00] gay men at the club or whatever, and they would often tell me like, Oh, you know, I wish I could meet a boy like you,

Kai: Mm-Hmm.

Trystan: you know, and it's so hard because it's like, I'm a boy like me.

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Trystan: You know, but I didn't look or sound or feel like what they thought a boy should look like and I did fault them for that at the time. But of course, looking back, I understand just like I couldn't change the type of person that I was attracted to. Neither could they, you know, so even though I was a boy on the inside if there wasn't that vibe there that they could pick up on, you know, and so it was, it was difficult. And then like, what am I supposed to date straight men? I had short hair. I wanted people to call me he, him, my name was Tristan. What were they supposed to do? You know? So it was, it was hard to, to find that path. It did become easier when I started transitioning. Go ahead,Jackal

Kai: Mm-Hmm.

Jackal: Tristan, you mentioned part of your journey being at this Lesbian Avengers event, and so for me, that triggered my, oh, you must have been part of the [00:39:00] lesbian community, but with your... Discussion of not really being attracted to women. Like, were you part of the lesbian community? Did you try to be with women?

Jackal: Were you a quote unquote straight woman until you transitioned? , what was that like?

Trystan: Yeah, I mean, like, I've only ever been attracted to men but pre transition and pre understanding I was a transgender man, I just assumed maybe I was bi, I just knew that there was something there in the sort of, like, alphabet soup or the rainbow or the letters, whatever , I was like, oh yeah, I know I'm in there somewhere, and so , I showed up in queer spaces, and like, I definitely was clocked as queer, so I think the fact that I didn't Yeah.

Trystan: want to sleep with women didn't, I don't know, it didn't seem that important to people or to myself, you know, be having like straight, you know, short hair and, and again, being gender non conforming people clocked me as queer. No one was like, Oh, well, if you don't, you know, fuck a woman, you don't get to come to our party.

Trystan: No, you know, Lesbian Avengers [00:40:00] quickly became the queer Avengers anyway, and a lot of those folks have since transitioned, , so yes, I was a straight woman before I came out as , somewhere somehow queer. So yeah, I know it is complicated.

Jackal: No, I was just curious. Cause I love hearing people's journeys and how, how they, you know, identified themselves before they became their authentic self. I appreciate it. Thank you.

Kai: When I think back to dating and cruising and. You know, being with and being attracted to gay men back then, especially there wasn't as much information or representation about us and our bodies and what we like and who we are. We had Buck Angel come out in the early two thousands, I think, so I just, which is right now currently very problematic.

Kai: We won't talk about him. I've heard stories and I personally would either find it challenging or to pursue gay men thinking that they wouldn't want me, because of my body configuration or, how do I disclose that,, can you talk to [00:41:00] us a little bit about , how you navigated that, the dating world or the cruising world or how you did that?

Trystan: Yeah. I mean, lots of different ways. I think at my best, I was able to just tell people, you know, so if someone hit on me in a bar or whatever, to just be like, okay, before this goes any further, I have to let you know, . I'm transgender. That means I was assigned female at birth. I still have all those parts you know, do you still want to vibe with me? I'm like, very pro for myself and my own safety, both physically as well as emotionally. Like, I want to put it all the way out there. And I was actually really happy when things like Manhunt and then later Adam for Adam, when those things came along, because I could front load being trans and I didn't have to see the look on their face if they weren't interested, you know, that happened in front of their computer or laptop or eventually phone like very far away from me because I didn't want to take that on. That's not my responsibility. [00:42:00] And I think, I don't know, weirdly. And maybe this is also a function of privilege, but weirdly like it went better for me like more times than not, you know, it went well more times than not of people seeing me being interested in me and being me being like, hey, my body doesn't look the way that you might think that it might and there were like, enough dudes who were like, oh, I mean, we could try,

Kai: uh huh, uh huh, uh huh,

Trystan: know, and I'm like, great, that's, that's a great place to start. Yeah. And so I think that the apps were really, really helpful in that regard. I think people just didn't match with me, quote unquote, if they weren't interested.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: And I didn't have to deal with it, which is not to say that there wasn't a level of, you know, fear and animosity and disgust that I faced. Of course there was.

Kai: hmm. Mm

Trystan: of course, but again, I just try to protect myself from that by being super upfront. And someone once, I had a lover who was a trans guy. And he [00:43:00] said because people often clocked him as a top, he dealt with way worse pushback because like their sort of sexual fantasy they had created with him was in pretty stark contrast to what he was laying out that he was able to do, as opposed to because I have always been a little bit smaller, you know, because I present just a little bit more femme, I think if there's people may have clocked me as being more of a bottom and so whatever their fantasy was may not have been that different in reality, you know?

Trystan: So there's just, there's all kinds of weird layers of things there.

Jackal: True, true, true, true.

Kai: It sounds relatable to you, Jackal, having experienced some of that and some of the assumptions people make about you.

Jackal: Definitely. As soon as, I mean, as soon as I come out as trans, it's basically people think I'm going to bottom for them like 100 percent of the time. And it's like, that's not me. Like I'm, I'm not always, you know, the active what's it called? Dominant one. You know, like I'm not always the one who [00:44:00] wants to be fucker kind of thing but but I'm also not, I'm not the bottom. Like I'm not always the bottom. I like to be verse. I like the versatile aspect of things. And people are like, Oh, I'm surprised by that. And it's like, why? Because of your own transphobic assumptions? Yes.

Kai: Thank you. So Tristan, you've been pretty out in front and very present and have there been times where you were , disclosing a little bit less and maybe living a non disclosing or low disclosing time of life?

Trystan: To me, like, going stealth always felt like the, the least safe option for me. Again, it's just my own thing of like, I would rather, like, the idea that there is a secret that someone could find out, like, living with that level of anxiety, I could not do. I'd rather just deal with the fallout up front then have to deal with it later on and have it build and build and build. There [00:45:00] have been a couple notable exceptions it's so funny, like when my partner and I lived in LA, we were friends with these other gay dads, where I just never told them I was trans, it just like never came up,

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Trystan: but also I made the choice not to tell them, because Not because I thought they were going to be hateful or anything like that. No, but I just thought like, I don't know, what would it be like if that wasn't a part of the friendship? You know, would it be different? Was there something about being trans and, and someone like people's assumptions or whatever about that, you know, that, that would be, that's like keeping me at bay from them.

Trystan: So there's like one instance where we had friends and they didn't find out until we moved away from LA that I was trans. And then like, I was friends with this family while I was in performing arts school where I had been friends with their daughter who was nine cause she was an Annie and I was an Annie.

Trystan: And they were like my surrogate family for the two years I was in school. I'd go to their house every Monday cause we'd [00:46:00] Monday off from. School and they'd like cook me a home, make me a home cooked meal and I watched their kid, you know, and that wasn't necessarily intentional, other than I just didn't tell them in the beginning, because there just was a sweetness there that I didn't want to.

Trystan: I don't know, I just didn't want to bring it up, I guess, but then it was too late I'd been friends with them for months, and I've been babysitting their kids it was like oh no, how do I tell them, you know, it really wasn't until graduation, like two years graduation was on the horizon. And I finally thought, this is so stupid, why haven't we talked about it, you know, and so I finally over dinner I mentioned it to them and, and they were like, Oh God, we've known, like, we've known before we even met you, because someone at the school was like, We're really excited.

Trystan: We have our first trans student this year and we get a chance to really like put a line in the sand about who we are as an institution to be able to say, like those students, those [00:47:00] performers are welcome here. Right? So the discussions had happened before I was even in the room. So they were like, we've known this whole time, but we didn't want to see anything to make it awkward.

Trystan: But also like, why didn't you feel like you could have told us?

Kai: Mm

Trystan: was there any, something we did? That you felt that we wouldn't be safe and we want to hear from you how we could have shown up better that you could have felt like you could have told us.

Jackal: Interesting. That's really interesting. I want to ask about that as well. You can answer the question that they asked, but also the feeling of like, oh, it's been months and now I can't come out because there's something I did wrong. Like I, I have this message in my life, right. That, that I did it too late kind of thing. And I really want to dive into that because I think it's a wrong message that we carry because, we do it in our own time. And I really want to be respectful of like, we do it when we're, [00:48:00] when we're ready. It's not about the necessarily for me, it's not about the family who did anything quote unquote wrong.

Jackal: It's about, I was just not ready to do it, but I don't have to carry a burden. Like I did it too late and now, oh my God, how am I gonna do it either? So I just wanna get your feedback on that.

Trystan: Honestly, like my mom calls it the hump, like there's a certain window of time that you can share big information and if you have missed that window, then it's like it is way too late, you know, and so I don't think about it. I think about the same as if there was anything I wanted to share, you know, that there is that tender getting to know you period.

Trystan: So I don't think I did anything wrong. They didn't do anything wrong either. It just didn't come up. And then I felt like, Oh, no, it is too late. Not because of shame or anything, but because I didn't, I don't know. It is like that feeling of like, Oh no, I'm going to drop a bomb, you know, like it's stupid. I'm not dropping a bomb. I don't owe you anything, you know? [00:49:00] Yeah, yeah. And so it's not that I had done anything wrong or they had done anything wrong. I just missed the window. You know, I just

Jackal: Interesting. Interesting.

Kai: It is such a unique... thing for each of us and these things that we're faced with these times where we make decisions about what to share or not to share and the mental gymnastics we do when we're thinking about it, you know, we just want to be seen as people and not be,, reduced to a one thing or have people do an accounting when they see us, it's like, you've just shared this with me. I need to rethink everything, or I need to reassess and some people don't do that, I just am so curious, Trystan, about an institution disclosed something very personal about you before you arrived without your knowledge or consent.

Kai: Mm

Trystan: totally and this is like 2004 2006 was when I went to school there. And I, I felt no animosity, anger. At all, you know, [00:50:00] because of the intention with which they shared it. Now, typically. That's my request. Like, for example, when I started dating my partner, you know, the person who's now my partner, but all these years ago, when we first started dating, I did say, like, hey, could you not tell your parents I'm trans until after I meet them?

Trystan: Like, that's my preference. And because I've noticed, anecdotally, that people are more likely to do things like mess up my pronoun, et cetera, if they know ahead of time. So. Usually that's just my request, is can they just meet me and have me be what they see, and then you can tell them that I'm trans at some other point, I don't care but with the school, honestly, like, them seeing it as like a, you know, them seeing it, there was, they weren't even bragging. You know what I mean? They weren't bragging. They weren't being petty or gossipy. They were literally saying, like, we're excited about this performer in part because of the fact that they're [00:51:00] trans and like, they should be. That is a, that is an exciting part of who I am.

Kai: hmm.

Trystan: Yeah, so it didn't bother me. Is it best practice? Of course not. When I work with corporations and educational institutions, do I tell them not to do that? Of course I do, but.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: it didn't feel bad to me at all.

Kai: I think it captures a certain time period as well. I think the etiquette and the level of Acceptable in quotation marks disclosure that companies or institutions or people did back then was a little bit less discreet, so I think in some ways it really makes sense because they're trying to be affirming like you used to do the public coming out and you do all that, so thank you very much for talking about that. I'm glad your experience was affirming and you held on to this uncertainty. And this tension about do I come out or not come out today pass the window or not with this family when all along they knew. And then, and then it turned into a thing. It's like, why didn't you tell us something about us? Or it's like, no, it's me.

Trystan: There's something about [00:52:00] like, there's something about coming out that isn't just, I don't know what's right for me, but it's also to me, like the other person or people in the dynamic, like they have the right to show you how good they are, like they, they deserve the chance. To show the fuck up for you, and I've always felt that if I didn't come out to someone and tell them that I'm taking away that opportunity for them to show me the best of who they are.

Kai: That's beautiful. And it sounds like they did. It sounds like they brought you into their home and you were welcome and you had this great relationship with their kids and unbeknownst to you, they were privy to very personal information about you. So they did demonstrate that over time. Would you have preferred that they have told you, Hey dude, we know that you're a trans guy early on in the process, or we think that's great about you,

Trystan: I think they felt there was a window too.[00:53:00]

Jackal: Yeah. Interesting.

Kai: interesting, right? Yeah, it is very interesting. And it's so complicated. I used to really worry about who knows, , if I'd go hang out with my other trans friends, sometimes we're quote unquote, guilty by association, all of Kai's friends are trans. So every guy that Kai's with has to be trans or not trans or some flavor of queer, and it's like, which of my trans friends, what did you tell your family about me or what did you tell, you're right, as your partner, I prefer that you don't disclose anything about me till after I make a face to face meeting, . So thank you so much for talking with us about that. I appreciate it.

Jackal: I want to go backwards just one second. So you were partnered with children, you were parenting in LA and had a gay couple who were parents that you also didn't disclose to. I'm curious about if it was less about like not wanting to disclose as much as wanting to kind of bond with other gay male parents.

Trystan: yeah, I mean, we had [00:54:00] lots of gay male parents we were bonding with, , and we really vibed with this one couple and truly it was a little bit, I don't mean this in a bad way, but it was a little bit of an experiment for me, you know , what if I didn't come out? What if it was a little more pure, like you'd said, just connecting with them as gay parents without them also asking questions about me being trans or seeing me as somehow different than them.

Jackal: But that's, that's exactly my point is that they will see you as different than them, the fatherness, being a gay male parent and. If you come out as trans, then it's like, oh, well, you have the female gene of parenting now, right? It's not like this, this pure gay male parenting gene that they have, you know, that they can relate to on that kind of level because we haven't talked about gay male parenting, but other men, other trans men on our show have talked about not wanting to come out in order to bond with men as men, [00:55:00] rather than have them have this like hamster wheel going on in their head about like what Kai said, like revisiting all the things that they thought about you kind of thing.

Trystan: Yeah, and I mean, what I learned is like, it really isn't any different. , when I have men in my life, they don't, you know, they know that I am trans and I don't know the men that I have in my life, it just would never occur to them to be like, Oh, well, parenting is easier from for you because you were assigned female. , that's what the experiment showed is like, Yeah. I can just come out. It doesn't matter. You know,

Jackal: Awesome.

Trystan: Yeah,

Trystan: How did

Kai: So, you know, now that they're aware that you're trans, so they found out after you moved away talk to us a little bit about how that happened.

Trystan: yeah, it was super simple. It was when I was pregnant with my son Leo and they had seen a news story about it. And so I saw on Facebook, they shared the news story. One of them did. And it said so happy for our friends, Tristan and Biff. We knew them when they lived in LA. We didn't know Tristan was a member of the [00:56:00] trans family at the time, but we are so happy for their pregnancy and they were amazing parents when we knew them just something very simple, very sweet.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: Obviously, all these years later it stuck with me. So even though it was simple and sweet like it was very meaningful that it was so simple. Oh, we didn't know that he was a member of the trans family. Now we do. And that's it. And that's when I was like, see, I didn't need to do all this. I didn't need to like create some other weird category. And tell Biff, you know, like I told my partner, I don't want to come out to them as trans. I just want to see what it's like to be friends with gay men and just be friends with gay men. And my partner was like, okay, I mean, it's up to you, you know?

Kai: Mm

Trystan: Um, yeah, so that's how I found out later.

Kai: hmm. I also find that very like just something that we encounter a lot and I think sometimes I miss opportunities when I don't disclose with other queers, especially and before I moved back to the Northwest, I was living in a very remote location and I didn't disclose [00:57:00] at all. I Was definitely stealth and that was super uncomfortable when I was hanging out with the gays, you know, I just, that was not who I was. And yeah, so I really appreciate you talking to us about this and let's move into the milestones part. So post transition, we really want to hear about life with you and what are some important milestones or moments post transition Tristan?

Trystan: Well, it was really funny, going into performing arts school looking like a teenage lesbian, basically, and then coming out of it, looking like a 16 year old twink. You know, it was very strange. I really did go in, have this, like, two years of being very insulated, and then came out and so I think the first milestone for me was like really dating in queer gay male spaces, sort of like quote unquote passing, you know, actually being read as a man. And then facing this whole other weird, level of judgment, being treated like a moron, like, the way that [00:58:00] gay men treat twinks, there's like that whole stereotype that, I was really treated, you know, just,

Jackal: a dumb blonde.

Trystan: Like a dumb blonde. Yeah. It was just like very confusing and strange for me. But being able to start navigating the world in that way was a definite milestone of like actually being seen as a man, which was great. I had my very first one night stand which I didn't, I never thought would be possible as a transgender man.

Trystan: I just assume that you'd have to like meet me and then talk to your therapist

Jackal: Mm.

Trystan: about being. Attracted to a transgender man for like six weeks. And then may or may not, maybe you may, you may or may not then like call or text me back. No. And so that was really great. He was a doctor from England. He had a British accent,

Jackal: Mm. Mm. Mm. Mm.

Trystan: which was very lovely.

Trystan: And I did, I did. He was like, do you want to come back to my hotel? And I was like, yes, I would. Oh, but also like, I'm trans. And he's like, what does that mean? And I was like, are you sure you're a doctor? But then I explained it to him and he was like, oh, is that [00:59:00] all? And I was like, yeah, that's, that is all. And yeah, so that was cool.

Kai: Fabulous.

Jackal: Mm. It's interesting . we often talk about male privilege on this show, right? Because, you know, we transition, there's a lot of the TERF energy about, like, you becoming the enemy and all of these things. And we think of male privilege in a very specific way, right? But, like, coming out of your school as a twink is a different, like, Male privilege, you were like, I don't really have male privilege in the gay male world.

Jackal: I'm the dumb blonde on the block now. I guess I'm asking , when or how did male privilege, if it ever did enter into your life?

Trystan: I mean, it is hard to say again, because how much of it is me growing, , being older and how much is it age, but like, I've never, the like stereotypes just don't hold true for me. So like, when I go to get my oil changed or whatever, they take one look at me and they're like, Oh, this dude doesn't know shit about cars.

Trystan: , so there's that stereotype [01:00:00] that like, now that I'm a man, they talk to me, you know, well, no, no, like as a gay man, they're like, is your husband around? I need to talk to someone about the carburetor. You know what I mean? Like, they don't, they don't know. And, I could do a lot because I'm a consultant. I do a lot of facilitation when I'm facilitating with a black woman, for example, it is very common that when she delivers content and when I deliver content. We are treated with different levels of expertise, even if she's the PhD in the room, and I have to consistently go back to, , I want to, I want us all to just track. That she and I said the same thing here. And when I say that's getting a lot more traction, let's deconstruct that as a group. Why do, y'all think that's happening? Does anyone else notice that's happening? So there are definitely ways that it shows up. And I have to really encourage people to not say like, Oh, well, it's because you're a good storyteller.

Trystan: You that told that story about the [01:01:00] going through the TSA and being flagged as not, you know, as being like abnormal by the machine. And that story really stuck with me. I'm like, okay, well, she told just as compelling the story about, some level of racism, why did mine stick and yours didn't, , so there are ways it shows up and it was not fun being treated like a, like a dumb blonde, quote unquote, which in and of itself is a sort of a sexist idea.

Jackal: Of course. Yeah, totally. So we're apologizing to all the legally blonde, you know, intelligent blue eyed, blonde, especially women out there. But it is a stereotype and it is something that I think people can relate to , when you say it.

Kai: So I have a question about that. So to me, twinks are thought of as , they're almost fetishized. They're almost idealized., as somebody who was AFAB and may have been fetishized or sexualized, , experienced sexism, misogyny, what was that like for you to now be put into a different box and be fetishized in a different way?

Jackal: Interesting.[01:02:00]

Trystan: I did not care for it

Trystan: I mean it's the same way, honestly, like You know, talking about chasers, that was a big thing when I came out, the idea that there were gay men who were only interested in trans men. I think there's less of that now, it could just be because I'm married, , I'm not in those circles anymore, I'm not putting out the, you know, I'm married and we're monogamous, and so I'm not putting out the sexy vibes, you know, I like to say that

Jackal: Oh, you're putting out sexy vibes, boy. Let me tell you,

Trystan: I

Jackal: not, you're just not doing it to the community, but right now you're putting out sexy vibes.

Trystan: I appreciate that. Thank you. I was actually just thinking the other day. I was like, oh, it's been two years since I've been hit on. Like, I literally remember the last time that someone hit on

Kai: me.

Kai: Speaking of objectification, we are not doing it to our guests right now.

Trystan: Listen, I would love to be objectified. Like as a 41 year old who's been married for 14 years, that would be great. I would love for someone to see me in that way. But

Jackal: I'll show up for you brother, I'll show up for you.

Kai: Oh, my God.

Trystan: But at the time, like the chaser vibe, I. Hate it. And in fact, that became one of my [01:03:00] dating rules was if someone had even been with a trans man before, I was not interested in sleeping with them.

Kai: Hmm.

Jackal: Mm,

Kai: Tell us more about that.

Trystan: totally, I know it sounds counterintuitive because it's like, well, then like, he's probably like down, you know, he's probably not going to be weird or not, whatever.

Trystan: But after, you know, hanging out with a couple of men who'd been with trans men before it felt so clear that they were not interested in Trystan the person they were interested in the trans body.

Jackal: yeah, yeah,

Trystan: And it felt so far removed from who I actually was, that fetishizing thing, that I was like, Hmm, I'm not interested in this and to go even further, it felt like they were men who fundamentally had a profound self hatred, who felt that they wanted to be with a trans man, because a trans man was going to have lower standards. There was the expectation that we would be

Jackal: wow.

Kai: yeah, there was.

Trystan: be with us

Jackal: [01:04:00] Yeah, that

Trystan: and that they didn't even have to try.

Kai: I have to say like within our own community, some of us carried that along with us that we are less than and that we should be grateful if anyone is attracted to us. And especially in the nineties and the early two thousands, a gay man who is interested in us, like a cisgender gay man, they were thought of as the special prize who is so elevated or a good person.

Kai: It was like, he's elevated somehow, you know, because he's, because God who can't, who can't believe he's interested in us.

Trystan: Yeah, and we would do things, put our own health at risk,

Jackal: Right.

Trystan: both physically and emotionally. No, I was not interested in that dynamic. At all.

Jackal: No, me neither.

Trystan: And so same thing if I felt I was being fetishized for being younger or thinner or whatever. No, not a dynamic I'm interested in. I mean, looking back, that's probably why I got so many tattoos and piercings was to get out of that , Himbo kind of a stereotype was maybe I could sort of like get [01:05:00] into more of like an alternative punk leather aesthetic and stop being treated this way.

Kai: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm.

Jackal: Very interesting.

Trystan: Yeah, so that was a milestone.

Jackal: I mean, the next question is about challenges, right? But I think that it's connected to your milestones too, and going back to the best of times, the worst of times you, and we talked about your fertility and, , being pregnant. So that must have been like the best of times, the worst of times. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Yes, the next big milestone was meeting my partner. We started dating, and a year later, my partner's niece and nephew needed a place to stay.

Trystan: They were one and three, so they came to live with us, and so we became parents. Almost literally overnight to two pretty traumatized kids who are now 13 and 15

Kai: Mm-Hmm.

Jackal: hmm.

Trystan: and then a few years later after adoption our adoption went through legally, I approached my partner to talk about me being pregnant and us having a [01:06:00] biological child.

Trystan: And that's obviously something. At least Kai and I, that's been a thing in the trans man community for two decades. You know, my friend Matt had his son 22 years ago.

Trystan: Yeah. The story I often tell us being at, like gender odyssey or, you know, some conference in Seattle and Matt wanted to do a workshop on trans men and fertility because he had been pregnant. He had a baby and he wanted there to be more conversations about this and the conference denied his requests for a workshop. And so he made his own flyers and he Xeroxed them. That's how long ago this was, and then taped them up around the hotel and it was like, , learn about trans pregnancy or trans fertility like whatever 9pm room 731 and it was just Matt's hotel room and we all gathered in and people are like sitting on each other's laps and standing in the doorway and sitting on the bed and he's there explaining , testosterone is not birth control and if you want to get pregnant, here's what you can do. And [01:07:00] legally, here are the protections. And here's how I found a midwife to work with. And it was so DIY back then, , and so I always known it was possible. I had also always known that, the medical science was going to lag really far behind what we as a community, what our collective wisdom was so I knew it was perfectly safe to do medically. It was totally healthy to do and so I presented it to my partner and we had a long period of discernment where we decided if that was right for us. And then I stopped my testosterone and got pregnant.

Jackal: Mm hmm. And what was that like? I can only imagine, even now, , in our more quote unquote progressive time, that A male presenting pregnant body is not generally accepted, there's probably going to be trolls. There's probably going to be hate mail. There might be difficulty finding good doctors. What was it like for you? I know it must've been a joyous time, but there must've been challenges.

Trystan: Yeah. I [01:08:00] mean, I think the thing that I did that was really stupid was that I want I wanted to tell my story publicly.

Jackal: Mm

Trystan: Um, my partner and I sat down and, and I really strongly felt,, as a trans man of a certain age. I was always taught and I taught other particularly white transgender men that like if anyone hands you a microphone you hand it to a trans woman, a trans woman of color if she's around. That it was not my job to somehow be like some trans spokesperson or trans savior like no my story it's not that it doesn't matter but I'm not the one where my people are in the headlines people for whom that is true are the ones who should be driving the story, the narrative, the policy, the organizing, all of that.

Trystan: You know, I've always just tried to like get in line behind trans women and particularly trans women of color to support whatever their solution solutions were, their agendas were.[01:09:00] And you know, when I was first pregnant, it was like. Oh no, I just had this feeling that was such a good idea in the beginning, but what it eventually turned into was that all the emotional labor of our movement was being placed squarely on the shoulders of trans women of color. That we have like Laverne Cox, and Janet Mock, and Geneset Gutierrez, and all these other amazing trans women of color who are now the targets of the TERFs.

Jackal: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Trystan: And it was like, shoot, is now the time to elevate a white transgender male voice to tell a story and hopefully take a little bit of that heat and to hopefully make it a little easier for whoever comes behind. And so my partner and I sat down and we talked about it. I called my friend Nick Adams, who's also a trans man of a certain age, who's the

Kai: yes,

Trystan: trans messaging person at GLAAD. If you have not interviewed Nick, you definitely [01:10:00] should. Any good trans story that's been on a TV show, a movie, anywhere, a comic book, a video game, that's Nick. Like Nick did. And I called him and I said, Hey, I'm thinking about telling my story. What are your thoughts? And he was like, cool.

Kai: yeah, what did he, what did you guys talk about?

Jackal: Just so you know, Tristan is shaking his head like emphatically, no, that's not a good idea. Like you guys can't hear this on the podcast, but that was accompanied with a big like head, no, please

Trystan: Yeah, and, the vibe was not, no, don't do this. The vibe was, this is going to be extremely difficult for you and your family. And so I said I, I want you to, to put some thought into it. I want to see the research. , what are the most common myths and stereotypes around trans families, trans pregnancy, trans fertility? So that when I do tell my story, that I can hit. The talking points so that I can address some of those myths and stereotypes proactively and I can teach [01:11:00] journalists to do the same. So he said, Well, okay, if you're going to do it that way, then, like, we can do this. Give me, you know, give me some time.

Trystan: And he put together talking points and and I was able to hopefully tell my story. to hit some of those intersections I already talked about as well as to proactively address some of those myths and stereotypes. But if I had not done that, my experience would have probably been a lot better. It would have probably been mostly the best of times.

Trystan: I live in Portland, where if you see a pregnant man at Starbucks, that's probably not even the weirdest thing you've seen that day. So it was very easy for me here. That's where the privilege piece comes into play, both my whiteness and my geographic privilege. Also the fact that You know, I've been doing this a long time. If a nurse or a doctor or whatever, a radiologist, uses the wrong pronoun for me, I have no problem just in that moment being like, oops,

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: let's start over, you know, or

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: can do all that. You know, I have those skills and that resilience. A lot of trans folks [01:12:00] don't, and that's because of the privileges that I've had throughout my life. So yeah, best of times, the story that I'll tell, I was really worried that older, older than me, trans men would be like, bro. Why did you do this? Like, you're making it harder for us. Like, we did all this work to be accepted as men. You're gonna go out there and get pregnant, which is, like, the thing that men don't do.

Trystan: Come on, dude. But the opposite happened. I got all these messages from trans men, like, ten years plus older than me, that were like, bro, this is so cool. I never wanna do that. I never would've wanted to do that, but it's so cool that you do, and like, this is why. This is like why I did what I did and came out and have been public so that like people like you could pick up the torch and do what I couldn't have done, you know, it was just, it was really, really great.

Trystan: Because at the end of the day, like I care most about other trans people, you know, like that's those are my people. That's what this [01:13:00] was all for, you know, it's is to expand who we could be and what we could do with our lives and our bodies. So it was really wonderful to get that blessing.

Kai: When you think back to that hotel room discussion with the other trans guys who were considering pregnancy, or Matt was talking about his experience, Matt was on our show. And was very forthcoming about the challenges that he had, particularly people came after him, people came after him, like his own people, like trans guys were coming after him and others and blaming him for all sorts of things.

Kai: It was really, really horrific. And yeah, and, and, I mean, and fast forward to when you have a child and just the reception that you had seemed so different and validating and beautiful.

Trystan: Yeah. I mean, and also like a lot of bad stuff but mostly not from my community. It felt to me like my community really like, I don't like to use militaristic terms, but in a way, like really closed rank. Is that the right term? Where they really like, you know, kind of like [01:14:00] buffer, were a buffer for me, really stood up for me and said like, no, like, of course not all trans men want to do this, but why should he have to pretend like he's not trans?

Trystan: That's stupid.

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Kai: hmm.

Trystan: You can be a man with that little modifier of like, yes, of course I'm a man and I can have a baby. Like,

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: like, I don't wanna be like you, I don't wanna be like a cis dude. I'm, why would I pretend that I'm not,

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Trystan: you know? And yeah, but it's okay. Like since then, like lots of trans men of trans men online have come after me for a whole variety of other things.

Trystan: So.

Jackal: Mm.

Trystan: Don't worry, like, I have definitely been, I'm old

Kai: no.

Jackal: Ouch. No, don't tell me that. That's

Trystan: have been cancelled many times which is just something that happens. We're a traumatized community

Jackal: It's too bad though. It's really too bad.

Trystan: it's horrific, it's horrific to think about.

Jackal: mean, as Kai puts it, that we try to eat our own, you know, like it's like, we're too small of a community, like, [01:15:00] you know, to, to exclude each other based on bullshit reasons. It's like, just everybody has their own way of being like, just kind of can't, we come together, you know?

Trystan: Well, I will say, like, counter to that, like, yes, the public shaming thing, it's been awful, I hate it, I have severe PTSD from it not from the homophobic people, but from other trans people coming for me. And the counter narrative is, I gave an interview once, Where I did say something, and it was, I, the journalist set me up for it, and she took what I said out of context, but I did say something negative about another trans person. And that trans person emailed me, and basically said, what the fuck, bro? You know? You know? And I, I felt into that for a few days, and I talked to some other trans mentors of mine, and they were like, yeah, screw him, he doesn't have a good reputation, blah, blah, blah. That didn't feel right to me. You know, and so after [01:16:00] thinking about it for a few days, I, I emailed him back and I actually, I wrote the email a bunch of different times and then honestly like I did ended up recording a video for him because I really wanted him to feel how I felt, which was I'm really sorry and I'll never do that again.

Trystan: Like you're right. I like no trans person should say something negative about another trans person to a stranger. We have each other's backs in public and in private, we're going to talk about it. And the fact that he came to me one on one and said that really hurt me. I was like, that shows deep integrity and I can show the fuck up for that.

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah.

Trystan: You know, somebody putting me on blast online. What's the goal of that? It's not deep in relationship. It's not to live each other up. It's. Something else that I'm not interested in. So I think there are ways that we hold each other accountable with love and care and compassion and kindness that I am always willing to show up for, you know, so there are ways I think to do that.

Jackal: That's good advice. That's, that's [01:17:00] really good. And very, like you said, it has a lot of integrity. I appreciate that. Hey, can you tell us a little bit about tell us a little bit about what your life is like now? Like you had, like you said, like you had a one in three year old joining you, you had a pregnant belly and now you have teenagers.

Jackal: So what is life like now for Tristan? Are

Trystan: Yeah. Yeah, my youngest I gave birth to is six. You might hear his little cute squeaky voice behind me. Cause he's trying to

Jackal: you talking about me?

Trystan: And yeah, and then a 13 year old and a 15 year old. And so I have elementary, middle and high, which is wild.

Kai: Full spectrum

Trystan: the full spectrum. Yes. Yeah. And so it's just a lot of drop offs and pickups and I'm working two jobs to support everyone.

Trystan: I've got my own consulting firm and then I have a day job now. My eldest. My eldest has special needs and so he lives outside the home with my partner and so we live in two different households.

Kai: Mm [01:18:00] mm-Hmm.

Trystan: my partner and I are still very much married we're still very much in love and 14 years later, but we live, we have to live separately so that everyone can have what they need.

Trystan: And so that requires a lot of money and

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: yeah it's a lot of hustle and a lot of working. Yeah, a lot of. Tickling and giggling and going to see plays when we can and going to the park, just like normal stuff. I don't know.

Jackal: Wow, sweet. That's really sweet.

Kai: So Tristan what are a few things that you're most proud of?

Trystan: No, I don't,

Trystan: I don't know. I don't really think about things in terms of pride. I just try to make the best decision that I can in each moment, you know? Yeah, pride also is so much of a looking back thing. It's like regret, you know, which I don't you know, I just don't really do.

Trystan: I don't think about pride or regret. It's just not how my brain works. Maybe it's like a neurodivergence thing. I can say like I'm just really, really, I have a lot of gratitude, you know, and so I feel [01:19:00] really grateful for You know, having parents who they struggled when I first came out, but have really come around to be like super diehard supporters.

Trystan: Super, you know, super grateful to have in laws, you know, my partner's parents, while they were evangelical throughout my partner's childhood, like they've really come around and now they're like pothead hippies who are just like really, again, just diehard supporters of us and our kids. Really grateful to live in Portland where there is.

Trystan: I think, I have not found a home in the trans community here, and I think Maybe 10 years or so, things have felt too fractured for me to really feel like it's a like any level of comfort from the community here. There are certainly just one or two individuals that I'm grateful for and then the culture more broadly,

Jackal: Mm.

Trystan: you know, especially the straight cis people in Portland, it has felt like.

Trystan: There has been just a real outpouring of support and love for us, [01:20:00] which I'm really grateful for. And then I think, you know, above and beyond all else, it's gratitude for our transcestors who did everything they could to move the ball forward. Otherwise I wouldn't exist, number one and certainly wouldn't be able to have this family.

Trystan: It didn't happen by accident. It happened because of the diligent, dedicated, hard work and bravery of the trans people who came before me.

Jackal: awesome.

Kai: Thank you. Thank you. So thinking forward, Tristan, in 10, 20 years, how do you imagine your life will be? What would you, what do you imagine?

Trystan: I mean, I didn't think I'd make it past 18.

Kai: Hmm.

Jackal: Wow.

Trystan: like we saw financial planner like eight years ago and he was like, what's your retirement plan? And I was like, retirement. Are you kidding me? Like, I'm not going to make it past 18. He's like, bro, you're like mid

Kai: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Trystan: this far, you'll probably make it that far.

Trystan: So, I don't know, I mean, my hope is, you know, some ease would be great. You know, not having to [01:21:00] work so damn hard all the time, you know, would be great. Hopefully my kids will, you know, have some level of happiness. My, my mom always, You know, she says that when your kids are little, you like, hope they'll be successful.

Trystan: And as they get older, you just like, hope they'll be happy. And then as they get even older, you hope that they'll find a life of some meaning.

Jackal: Mm.

Trystan: So I'm hoping to jump over some of those steps and just go straight to hope that in 10 years, my kids will have a life of meaning. Although Leo will only be 16.

Trystan: So my hope is that he won't be. Too rebellious.

Jackal: Mm.

Trystan: can't see him, but he's literally climbed up on top of my bed and is precariously perched like 14 feet above the ground.

Jackal: Mm.

Kai: Goodness, if you need to get up and attend to him, you may,

Trystan: no, he's fine. He's like me. He's a monkey.

Kai: okay.

Trystan: So, the chances that he'll be a rebellious teen are pretty high, especially if he takes after me.

Jackal: Mm.[01:22:00]

Trystan: Yeah, and then I hope that, you know, I hope that in 10 years, the community will also have matured to the point where we're able to have a community again. I hope that every 10 years or so, and it never happens, but you never know, maybe it will this time. Who knows?

Jackal: Mm.

Kai: I'm, I'm certain there's way more to that story, which we won't talk about online. But I, I appreciate you sharing that. And then you think about the future, Tristan, like how Actually, let me change the question. Let me just say, how well are you supported now? So, so you've, you've got a partner, you have family, what, who, and you've talked about cisgender folks.

Kai: Talk to us a little bit about your support system now.

Trystan: Yeah, I think it's my partner and my family. I think that's it. My sister and her wife and their kids who live in New York and my in laws who live down the street and my kids are a huge support to me. Yeah. And I think, you know, and then we have our love family, which is, you know, close friends and family around us.

Trystan: Yeah.

Kai: Nice. Okay. Thank you. Thank

Jackal: So what kind of support, I mean, you're fairly [01:23:00] young, you're, you know, in, in your early 40s, but what kind of support do you think you'll need as you age as a trans person? Or does that come into your mind?

Trystan: Yeah, I mean, I think about this a lot, mostly because I'm a nerd and I think a lot about data and longitudinal data. I'm really, really interested in being a part of pioneering research, particularly on sexual health, wellness, desirability. Reproductive capacity for trans men as we age, non binary folks who are assigned female at birth, whether you take hormones or not.

Trystan: That's something I'm really interested in is, I would like to continue to have an intimate life with my partner and like, I don't know, is that going to keep happening? Who knows? We, no one knows. You know, not no one, of course, you know, but mostly it's community wisdom, which is great. But one dude on TikTok like does not research make, you know?

Trystan: And so I'm, I'm interested. Excited about that. And I think, yeah, the, the medical stuff is interesting to me.

Jackal: We just, last week [01:24:00] actually interviewed a guy named Gaines, and he's very into research, and it's a different type of research than what you're talking about, but I really think that there needs to be like a community network of the trans guys that are interested in doing research, so that like all of the data that is being gathered about trans men, trans health, trans bodies, you know, is in one kind of data pool that is Co collaborated, you know, cross checked with, with other things that are happening.

Jackal: I don't know. I think it's, it's really necessary. And I'm sad that it hasn't happened kind of beforehand because we've had a long, we could have had a longitudinal study you know, with all the guys that have come before me. And you know, I think that like you talk about that missed window, I think we missed a window of opportunity there.

Trystan: yeah, I mean, and I'm involved. I'm not a researcher myself. I'm just a trans nerd. And so I'm involved in a couple of studies and a lot of them, I'm just paying attention to [01:25:00] them. You know what I mean? Like I just read every report that comes out or, you know, I sit on an advisory committee, for example, but like.

Trystan: A study out of Michigan on trans pregnancy came out in June and I only found out about it last week and I'm like, listen, I run a portal on trans fertility, you know, which, which takes this research and takes it out of its wonkiness and puts it into real terms that like the average trans person can understand.

Trystan: And I didn't know about this until now, and I only found out about it because of like a Google News setting I have, you know what I mean? So yeah, so the research is exciting and interesting to me. I think again, thinking about capitalism and wealth, you know, I think it's a reality that I'm going to have to just make more money next year than I made this year and more money this year than I did last year because of the social safety that's not really existing, you know, like we don't have a lot of money and savings, even two of us working very hard, two jobs each.

Trystan: But also with the kids with [01:26:00] special needs, like we have to maintain two households, you know, so I think there's a reality there around financial security that I'm just like really freaked out about because as I get older, you know, I'm probably going to heat hit like whatever peak. Marketability in terms of my professional capacity in the next 10 years, and then the reality with our country and ageism, it's going to dwindle as well as my own energy.

Trystan: I already feel is so different than five years ago, 10 years ago. I'm not going to be able to just churn out as just like a pure quantity of work. I can't do it anymore. You know, I can't say yes to everything.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: yeah, I'm thinking about all of that and my sexiness.

Jackal: you. Your sexiness,

Trystan: I'm just kidding.

Trystan: I'm just kidding.

Jackal: your sexiness is not in question. And trust me, like, you know, I'm almost 60 and I still look 40, 45. So, you know, you're 41. I'm sure in 10, 20 years, you're gonna look just as handsome as you are now, you

Trystan: Well, I mean, there's something to be said there. Like one of my corporate clients is an aesthetics [01:27:00] spa. So like there it's all nurses and they do like Botox filler, like all the bougie stuff that you see on like the Kardashians. And so like I get free work from them and that is amazing. It's great. And I never would have thought as a transgender man, I would be going in to get.

Trystan: Botox, you know, but also like they offered to it. They offered it to me for free.

Kai: Hmm.

Trystan: after I did it, I was like, Oh, why do we act like, Oh, feeling beautiful, feeling great looking your best self. Like, why is that just for trans femmes? Why can't we claim that, you know, as like, we're not trying to look any different or younger per se.

Trystan: But like our bones do change as we get older and like a little filler in the cheek, like it does square off my face. And then I do feel like I got a good vibe going there. You know, why not? So I try to talk about a little bit about that too, about like, how do we continue to feel great about our bodies and not be embarrassed or ashamed to have a [01:28:00] skincare regimen?

Jackal: Mm

Trystan: Take oral finasteride for that, keep that hairline, you know, whatever, like, why not?

Jackal: hmm. Tryin Tryin

Kai: Yes, indeed.

Trystan: want to, if we want to, not should, but like, if we want to, we, those things should be available to us.

Jackal: Yeah. Definitely. I agree. So, Tristan, what would you like to say to the newer generation of trans and non binary folk? Not just the young ones, but maybe the people who are 41, but just coming out or something. What would you like to say?

Trystan: I don't know. I mean, in a way I wish I could hear from them. You know, I feel like the next generation has so much to teach us, you know, and even people coming out now, I've still would have so much to teach me. I'm like, I don't know. I would say to them other than what. You know, Kai and the other guys who supported me told me, which is like, you know, whoever you are, like, there's nothing wrong with you.

Jackal: Very

Kai: I'm glad you remember that because I, I, I sometimes wonder, you know, [01:29:00] cause what we heard back then was you have to be straight, you have to be this, you have to be that. And I don't know, you've always just been somebody that exists, how you want to exist. I've always really appreciated that about you, Tristan.

Kai: And. Why would anybody want to change that or tell you to do something different? And I'm glad you felt that from us. I, I hope that's what you got,

Trystan: it is. I mean, I almost, I almost didn't transition until, I don't think it was you, Kai, but it was someone else. I was like, I don't know, am I like trans enough to take testosterone? And he was like, you could just try. It

Jackal: Right.

Kai: Mm-Hmm.

Trystan: the first person who was like, You don't have to be this trans to transition, you know, he was like trying if you don't like it, you can just stop, you know, I was

Trystan: not a

Kai: test. Yeah.

Jackal: I think Matt said that on our, on our show recently. It's like, because there is this idea of trans enough, like, are you butch enough to transition kind of thing. And it's like, you don't have to be any type of AFAB body to have gender dysphoria. You can have gender dysphoria in whatever born body you [01:30:00] are, you know, like, I think that a lot of Trans women would be like, you know, they're too masculine to transition.

Jackal: You know what I mean? Like it's ridiculous to think that a trans woman would not transition because she's too masculine presenting in her current body. You know, it's like, it has nothing to do with her, with her, her gender dysphoria.

Trystan: known a lot of trans women who haven't transitioned because they felt that they were too masculine, you know, so that is a thing and I'll also say like, I don't think I ever really had what could be considered dysphoria. Like you don't have to feel uncomfortable in your body to feel like there's a different body that you could be more comfortable in, you know,

Jackal: I have to agree with that as well.

Trystan: Yeah,

Jackal: I don't think that that's exactly my experience, but it's similar to my experience for sure. So what do you think we should have asked that we didn't? Famous last words of wisdom.

Trystan: no, I think that I think we covered everything I would have and things I didn't think we were going to. So, yeah, all did

Jackal: Awesome. You [01:31:00] do have a book. Would you like to tell me about your book, hmm.

Trystan: Sure, yeah I wrote a memoir called How We Do Family which is the story of how we became a family. It's sort of, it's a memoir masquerading as, It's like a parenting advice book because my book came out the year after Michelle Obama's book did. And my publisher was like, no offense, Tristan, but you are not Michelle Obama.

Trystan: And I was like, no offense taken. I am. I totally agree. I am not. And so the memoir space was like a little crowded. And so they're like, but parenting is a place where there's just not a lot of books. So yeah, it's a lot about how to queer parenting. How to break out of the sort of cishet norms of what it is to be a mother or a father or a parent and, and sort of blaze a new pathway forward.

Trystan: I've always felt that queer and trans people had a lot to, to teach cishet people. And the publisher was basically like, cool, teach us. And that's the book.

Jackal: Nice. Very, very

Trystan: A lot of trans people give it to their mom. That's

Jackal: Oh,

Trystan: for [01:32:00] your

Jackal: wow. Wow. That's nice. Yeah. Sweet. And where can people find it?

Trystan: Anywhere it is on like Powell's of course, I'm from Portland. So like, I'm going to push powells. com or Powell's in person, but like, I get a lot of, if you buy it through Amazon, like that helps whatever boost the rating, blah, blah, blah. If you don't have an ethical concern about Amazon, but basically any bookstore anywhere, you'll see it.

Jackal: Right. So pals is P O W E L L S dot com.

Trystan: That's right. Yeah,

Jackal: Perfect. Okay. Well, it's been such a pleasure getting to know you and interviewing you. Thank you so much for being a part of our show. Don't hang up because we're going to go to our bonus questions, but I just want to really appreciate you being here and taking the time with us.

Trystan: of course. Thank you for having me.

Jackal: So, thank you for being a member of our show. We're going to enter into our bonus questions with Tristan. Tristan, what do you think about being asked to identify your pronouns?

Trystan: Yeah, so for me, I, I see being [01:33:00] asked to identify my pronouns as my own act of allyship as a binary trans person to be able to show up for non binary trans people. If it's helpful for them to have everyone be asked so that they're not singled out, and if it's helpful for them because then they get to share their pronoun and have it be used and respected, I'm, you know, totally happy to do it.

Jackal: Nice. Thank you so much. And how did you get your name Tristan? Like how did that come about? I love asking people their naming stories.

Trystan: Yeah it came from when I was doing drag I was like one of my very first drag performances, and they, after I performed, they asked me like, oh, what's your drag name? And I was like, oh shit, I did not think about this. And my friend Tristan was in the audience, and so I said, Tristan, And that's what they called me, and then everyone came up to me afterwards calling me Tristan, and I was like, Oh, that feels good.

Trystan: And then, because I'm trans, I just had to throw an extra Y there in the middle of it. So I often, that's my joke, is I say it's the trans spelling, meaning there's a Y in [01:34:00] there for no discernible reason.

Kai: we get creative with the spellings.

Trystan: We sure do or do. Yeah.

Jackal: nice. Tristan, have you ever had a time that you hadn't expected to disclose your trans status? And if so, what did you do?

Trystan: Unexpected.

Trystan: Yes. Yes, I think so, is when I went on a trip for the first time with my partner to Pride San Francisco. We lived it up a little too much, and I lost my ID.

Jackal: hmm. Oh.

Trystan: And so we, I had to fly back to LA with no ID.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: dun, dun.

Trystan: Yeah, since so there was a very high level of scrutiny on me at TSA. And and yeah, so we're questions as to why I don't remember if they met like looked like looked up my identity online.

Trystan: They were like, well, why is this they're like, oh, [01:35:00] there's there's like an old name and then a new name. And I was like, oh, it's because I'm a transsexual. So yeah, I just had to Explain it to them like I always do. Oh yeah, that's there because I'm a transgender man. That's my old name, this is my new name.

Trystan: I'll show you my vagina if you would like.

Jackal: Oh my God. I

Trystan: Usually that's when they're like, no, I'm good.

Jackal: would

Kai: it. That's an approach. I didn't try.

Trystan: I'm just saying, it's an option.

Kai: yeah, yeah. Did you get the special pat down or brought brought aside or anything like

Trystan: I got the special pat down and everything. Yep.

Jackal: And, and did they, did they have a man or a woman do it? Because I've had the experience where they're like who do we get to pat you down

Trystan: Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure they asked, like, which is honestly, again, when I'm consulting with organizations, like, that's actually best practice is be like, Hey, would you prefer a man or a woman? Because ultimately, we are the best at keeping ourselves safe. We're the best at knowing what is safe [01:36:00] for us.

Jackal: hmm. Mm hmm.

Trystan: So yeah.

Kai: When, when we interviewed Tristan, the other Tristan, Tristan, we, we interviewed Tristan and he's a man of color and he shared his experience of TSA and it was just completely, you know, like he was asked to do really inappropriate things by white guys who were in power and they brought him into a different room and it was really, really intense.

Kai: It's such an TSA in general is stressful, you know, and when you throw in a trans, trans status, and then you're a man of color, it's extremely like, so a whole new level. So I'm glad that you were able to get through, and it doesn't sound like it was over the top stressful for you.

Kai: I don't know. What was it like to experience that?

Trystan: Yeah, I mean, it was stressful. It's always stressful. Same as traveling outside the US. You know, like, there was a time when I got flagged, I don't even remember where I was, maybe Belize. But a country that had a very conservative government, and they separated me from my sister, who I was traveling [01:37:00] with.

Trystan: Like, it was, you know, there have been a lot of those really harrowing, harrowing times.

Kai: Hmm.

Trystan: and so much of that is linked to privilege. Like, I couldn't afford to get my passport changed. And so my passport still had an F on it. And so they didn't understand why this man had a female passport. And so they assume that there must be something nefarious going on.

Trystan: Yeah. And so now that I am a little bit older, like for example, I have the TSA pre check. It's not that expensive. It's like 60 bucks every three years or something. A hundred percent worth it as a trans person because a, you get to keep your shoes on, which is just a, you know, that's just like a comfort thing, but also you get to go through the metal detector and not the stupid 3d.

Trystan: body thing which means I never get flagged anymore. I always used to get, like, randomly selected for

Kai: Mm hmm.

Trystan: downs, interviews, blah, blah, blah.

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Trystan: so, so, yeah.

Kai: Thank you. Thank you.

Trystan: And I'm sorry that happened to Tristan. Like, that's...

Kai: Oh, yeah.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: [01:38:00] Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, so on a somewhat later note, perhaps, you know, many of us joke around about wanting to have a code of some sort so we can communicate with each other out in the wild. And when, when you don't personally know someone, Tristan but you know, or suspect that they're trans mask of some flavor when you first see them or meet them, how do you typically respond?

Trystan: Oh my god, I have the worst story about this. It's my, it was at my dentist's office. There was this older guy that worked the front desk. And he's the one that like calls to be like, I'm calling to confirm your appointment with the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, this dude's trans. I like his voice.

Trystan: And then I met him and I was like, this dude's trans. And so there was one time when he called to confirm an appointment and I said, by the way, you know, your voice is like very familiar to me and sounds a lot like the people that are in my community. I'm wondering, like, I'm a transgender man. Are you, do you happen to be transgender?

Trystan: And he was like, actually, no, but I do get that a lot. And I was like,

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. [01:39:00] Yeah,

Jackal: Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Trystan: But he handled it really well. He wasn't like, of course, he wasn't offended or anything. It's not offensive to be thought of as trans. But I did, I posted in a trans man of a certain age Facebook group to be like, what do y'all do?

Trystan: You know, because Again, being a certain age, I don't, I don't give a shit if I hurt your feelings. I'm looking for a community, I'm looking for a connection, I'm looking to see that there is that, there's that Venn diagram overlap in between your life and mine, you know, and it was worth it for me to risk it.

Trystan: But most of the dudes came down to me hard and they were like, you should never out someone and if there's stealth and blah, blah, blah, you know what, fuck you. if I offend another trans person by asking them on the phone, not in front of anyone if they're trans, then, like, they have problems that I am not responsible for.

Trystan: And I'm willing to take a risk now to be like, Are you trans by any chance? in the hopes of connecting with someone. And I've done that, you know, in other places. I'll even do that with trans women occasionally. If I feel that there's a level of comfort that she has with who [01:40:00] she is, to be able to just sort of say like, are you trans by the way?

Trystan: I'm trans. You know, I did that at the grocery store a couple months ago. I was like, dang, it's like trans pride in here. Cause like there's a bunch of new trans staff, you know, again, just if the intention is like to connect, I see you, I support you, I got you.

Kai: Yeah.

Trystan: But obviously it's something where you do have to do it kind of.

Trystan: Thoughtfully, because someone might not be in a place where they're really comfortable and confident with who they are. And I don't want to out someone or to let them know that they've been clocked.

Jackal: It's interesting that, that's interesting too, because I quite a number of years ago now, but went to like this trans femme bar and there was a lot of trans femme women in there. And so I wanted to bond with them and I told them that I was trans and they really didn't care. I mean, like they were like, your story is different than mine and I don't give a shit about you kind of thing.

Jackal: So it was really interesting, like, because it's true, like being trans one, I don't know if they believed me. And two, it's like, [01:41:00] because I'm so red as male, whereas their lives are so much different than mine, I think that they were like, you know, at, at, And, and so, you know, interesting.

Trystan: Well, you also have to, I mean, for me, not you have to, but I think about it as like the context as well. Who goes to bars? It is like having bartended for many years. It is often people who like are looking for external validation and there might be a little bit of a level of insecurity there. Just think about like, that's when I went to bars was when I, you know, I wanted to feel good about myself and have someone else to lift me up a little bit, you know, and so it, it's not like a representative demographic is all I'm saying.

Trystan: And, and I've had the opposite experience sometimes. You know, like I interviewed this black trans woman who's a friend of mine that I really adore about her fertility experience. And she was really emphasizing how important it is for trans women to show up for trans men. And I was like, Oh, well, thank you.

Trystan: You know, like, you know, she really sees the commonality in our struggles. And so, yeah, [01:42:00] but yes, I wish there was a code.

Kai: And when, and so when you've been a really public figure, you live in a town where there, there's so many trans persons around. And like when you're out. And someone you know, recognizes you or thinks they know you, how would you suggest that that person, whether they do or don't know you, approach you if they wanna connect because they're trans as well.

Trystan: Yes, please come and say hi. Like when I was on social media, I'd get a lot of DMs that was like, OMG, were you in Denver? I think I saw you like at the corner of market and fifth or whatever. And I'm like, you know, they're like, I didn't want to like be awkward or whatever. I'm like, Oh my God, please come and say hi because. That is like the antidote to the trolls, you know, a real human being coming up to me and saying, you know, your story was so pivotal for me when my kid came out and it helped me understand that he has a future ahead of him and it really like made me able to show up for him in a way I wouldn't have otherwise like [01:43:00] that counterbalances like 100 trolls, you know, so all I need is like now.

Trystan: You know, 1, 200 of those positive experiences, and all the trolls will be negated! Nah, I'm just kidding.

Kai: we're gonna give you some now.

Jackal: Right. Totally.

Trystan: they can't find me. I mean, they can try, and I don't mean that as a challenge, but I, I'm a little harder to find now. But yes, people coming up to me and being like, I read your book, or like, I saw your story, whatever, like, I love that.

Trystan: I wanted to go on a book tour so that I could create little pockets of community in person and just talk to people and then COVID happened and it was like, I didn't get any of that.

Jackal: Okay. Tristan, our last question is, how do you think we can be more supportive of our trans masculine brothers? Like, you know, to the older generation, to the younger generation, to us right now is a kind of similar sibling community. What's your tips?

Jackal: Mm

Trystan: I mean, people can't see I'm shaking my head because I'm just trying to think, like, I've tried [01:44:00] to show up in spaces, you know, I think almost every trans masculine, like, gathering or event or support group in Portland, I think almost all of them have crumbled.

Jackal: hmm. Mm

Trystan: You know, we are in, I just thought it would get easier as I got older.

Trystan: You know, I just thought that people would be better at identifying when their own traumatic event is their responsibility

Jackal: Mm

Trystan: and to ask for what they need and stop externalizing it on other people so much. You know, I just thought that that common care and, and, and consideration and concern and kindness would help sort of be the lube in the gears, you know, that we could hold our differences and our disagreements a little better.

Trystan: And that just has not been the case. If anything, it's gotten worse. So I just, I don't know, you know, other than when someone comes to me and says, [01:45:00] Hey, I need help. I'm like, absolutely. What do you need? You know? When I'm asked to show up, I show up. I try not to crash anybody else's party, you know? but you know, like, getting DMs from trans people being like, well, as a binary trans man, you have no business speaking for me.

Trystan: Who the hell said I was speaking for you? Like, I never said I was.

Jackal: Right. Right.

Kai: Yeah.

Trystan: just so hard,

Jackal: But that assumption that being a binary trans man is bad,

Trystan: right? That somehow

Jackal: and that's problematic.

Trystan: It's very problematic in the same way that I hear from binary trans people, well non binary people have it easier than us because they can pass as cis when blah blah blah, whatever. Like, can we just all have a hard time? And can we just all have our own privileges?

Trystan: And can we just like, hold and respect that for each other? You know?

Kai: You can feel really threatening to, we've had people of our generation and elder be very [01:46:00] threatened by having to discuss pronouns or have somebody not identify as binary and like it's invalidating to their experience. And I think over time, you know, what, one of the great things about doing this show is just hearing from the different people who, who approach this in different ways, you know, and, and I, I'm, I'm really in heart, like just really feel good when I hear how we're transforming, like we're growing, we're evolving.

Kai: And I think

Jackal: Hopefully.

Kai: And I, I, I think in person connection is so important. We've been talking so much about bonding, like that special bond that we share. And I also think that you're a public figure and, and. It was one of the things I remember about James Green in the early 2000s, late 90s was people would go after him and say, you're not speaking for me, you're not, you're not speaking for my community.

Kai: And, and, and he would be, I'm just assuming that he's, he's a gracious person to be like, speak, let's make room for you to, you know, like, let's, I'm not speaking [01:47:00] for you, you know, to acknowledge that. And I'm with you, Tristan, I think, you know, like, you're sharing your experience and you. You clearly are very much invested in diversity, equity, and, you know, inclusion, and just, that's very clear from what you're saying.

Kai: And so I, I, you want better for people and for our community and you want connection from other people. And I hope, you know, you sound somewhat like, like you've got some hurt there, you know, some pain there from the experiences within our community. So I'm sorry about that.

Trystan: Yeah. I mean, thank you. And I'm not sure like there, I don't, I don't know, you know, it's been a multi year healing process that still isn't done. You know, there's, there's, and maybe those wounds will always be there. Anytime you're, the people that you think that are your family, you know, your love family, anytime that they basically say that you're disposable and should be thrown out,

Kai: Mm.

Trystan: you know, that hits on a very primal part of who we are as humans, our, our, our need to be in [01:48:00] community.

Trystan: Yeah. And when there's a threatening of being ousted from a community, or the actual happening of being ousted from community not even because you've done anything wrong, but because someone disagrees, just has a different opinion.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: Right.

Trystan: You know, it's, it's... It's really troubling.

Jackal: For me, it goes back to the question of like, you know, what's the message that I want to offer to newer transitioning a non binary folk. It's like, binary trans is on the spectrum and non binary is not necessarily the goal. Of like having everybody be non binary, like cisgendered people might never, ever identify as non binary, right?

Jackal: Which is fine. I think that there's ways for cisgendered men to be masculine and feminine. Right? Like, I think that there's ways for binary trans men to [01:49:00] exist on our gender spectrum. And that hasn't changed. Like, there are a lot of people in the newer generations that have come out, like within the last one, two, five years, that are transitioning medically because they feel a connection to the binary.

Jackal: Themselves, you know, and so I think that like, as Kai says, like, we need to be a little bit less curmudgeon y and accept the non binary, but I think that the non binary gender spectrum, you know, needs to be able to accept us as binary trans people as well. So I think that there's a little bit of

Trystan: this is historical, you know, like Mark Twain says, like, history doesn't repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme. It's like, this is like post Stone Butch Blues, you know, like I heard Leslie Feinberg speak before they passed, and that's one of the things they said was their speech was called Defending the Binary, and what they were talking about was defending the ends of the binary.

Trystan: You know that like the [01:50:00] masculine, feminine, like those are as valid as in the middle. And they were talking about how like in the 80s and 90s and like a more androgynous approach was seen as like the ideal. And that meant that femme women and femme men and masc women and masc men really got the short end of the stick.

Trystan: And I think bariculture and leather culture saved masculine gay men. By giving them a safe place to land that wasn't judgmental or rigid or you know, that those communities I think were safe landing places for butch, particularly gay men. And we just, I don't know that we've had the exact same thing.

Trystan: And maybe drag culture is a great landing spot for more femme gay men. But I think for the rest of us, it is, yeah, it's, it's challenging. I've been challenged by young trans non binary, et cetera, folks using the pronoun it. That's been something for me that I'm like, Oh, now I'm the curmudgeon, you know, and so

Jackal: Mm

Trystan: really do try to, I really try to own the fact that it's my discomfort.

Trystan: It's not that they've done anything wrong, [01:51:00] you know, and that's I think if we could all just do that a little bit just take responsibility for our own curmudgeonliness. As opposed to continuing to sort of foisted on to other people, we might be a little bit better off community.

Kai: I do think like the kink community, the leather community has made space for a lot of play and, and experimentation and different varieties of expression, and I'm a hundred percent with you and I think now we're at a time where I think it's wonderful that we're, that gender expression is on the table.

Kai: And it's, it's definitely political and it's being politicized and people's rights are being taken away. And I think as we proceed we need to stay together somehow and have it all be okay. And not one is more valuable or legit, like the policing you were talking about earlier. Yeah. And, and just stay together somehow so that we can push back what really matters.

Kai: You know, the divisiveness in community is not helping us politically.

Jackal: hmm. [01:52:00] Exactly. I agree.

Trystan: Who would have ever thought that the three of us would be like the man? You know what I mean? That we, the oppressive forces. I'm like, I was, I was like a gay trans man in 2002. Okay.

Kai: just made me made me shrink up a little bit. I don't know. I don't. It's just not how I see myself.

Jackal: Yeah.

Trystan: at all, but to be treated that way by others, it's like,

Kai: yeah, for sure. Yeah, I agree.

Trystan: without the curiosity and openness. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's the thing I try to extend to other people as much as I can. So

Kai: that's, that's a beautiful way, beautiful way to wrap up, Tristan. So thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing so much about your history, so much about your family and your experience of coming into family and your experience within, you know, as you've just grown.

Kai: Grown up within community and some of the highs and lows with that, and some of the really beautiful loving things that have happened and some of the heartbreaking things, thank you so much for being honest and for all the work that you do for us and, for others.

Kai: And I'm glad you're well supported. And I don't doubt that you have a [01:53:00] lot of love about you, you know, around you and that you share that, you exude that. So thank you so much for being here today. It's great to see you again.

Jackal: So you have a little trans baby connection with Mr. Tristan. How is your, how do you think the interview? Well, I'm,

Kai: it was really great to see Tristan again after a long time. It's interesting because he and I have lived in cities together, but our paths don't cross. So it's nice to know that we're close to one another now, physically, geographically.

Kai: Do you think that's

Jackal: a generational thing, you know, like, because that your paths didn't cross really. It's like, do you think that that had to do with being from kind of two different generations? Although you're, although you're part of the same community? I don't

Kai: know. That's a great question. I think some of it's life circumstance, you know, we're both really heavily involved in career and families and busy and yeah, we've been friendly with each other and our paths have crossed for decades, but we just haven't, I wouldn't say that we're like besties.

Kai: You know, but I absolutely adored Tristan since I've known him when he was contemplating all this and doing [01:54:00] drag and he's always somebody who I have appreciated. Tristan shows up as Tristan and along the way I've been, I've had the pleasure of witnessing how he has grown as a person. He's just absolutely wonderful and he Takes risks and he's clearly taken some hits from people and I just, it was palpable today.

Kai: Just like the amount of joy that he has, but also some pain along the way. I appreciate how he showed up and how he has shown up over the years. How about you? How was it for you? Tuckle. It was

Jackal: really cute. Like, I mean, I, I didn't know what to expect. I don't know him. I just, uh, I knew of his pregnancy.

Jackal: Mm-Hmm. . And, uh, I knew he had written a book about family and alternative family. Mm-Hmm. . Um, so I was just curious to, to meet him. And I thought he was a really, uh, fun character. Mm-Hmm. , like he's. He just seems so positive, right? Like, and he's, I like his, um, I really relate to the idea of kind of not living in regret, but [01:55:00] also how he claimed that as like not living in like being proud of something that happened in the past.

Jackal: It's like, it feels very present to me. Like I'm now. I did feel sad and I do feel sad about the. Wanting to reach out to connect to, to community, wanting to show up and not getting the kind of, uh, support, not getting the kind of community connection that he's looking for and that he's striving to create.

Jackal: Like, I think that that's a really sad commentary on, on where our community kind of stands right now. And, uh, and I know that a lot of people have that. Or maybe they feel like they have it, maybe they don't feel like they have it through the internet and the social media. But for me, that, that aspect is a little bit harder and maybe for him as well.

Jackal: And so, so I do feel kind of a sadness around that. So, um, so yeah, that [01:56:00] that's my biggest kind of takeaway, like his positive energy and then the sadness of, of, uh, missed community.

Kai: Yeah, I'm not sure how to connect in person anymore. Not only did we have the pandemic, I moved around a lot as a person, right?

Kai: And I was very heavily involved. My focus was my career and building my career. And I have worked long hours, just like many of us. And I have a relationship and I have some close friends, but I haven't really extended myself to do a lot of community work over the last 15 years. Probably. So I think that's part of why our paths haven't crossed.

Kai: And I would love to have. Uh, a social group, not necessarily a support group. It feels too much like work for me. We've had people, our guests, and also people who have commented on our social media about how important it is to connect with each other. And that's part of the reason the mentoring program is such a joyous thing for me to help facilitate.

Kai: I think, you know, [01:57:00] hopefully it brings people together and can get some of that. I

Jackal: know that we're both overextended in a lot of ways, but, uh, one of the things that you and I have talked about privately is like having a coffee hour. And I think, yeah, for listeners, like for guests that have participated, bring your, your significant other, like a coffee hours, a coffee hour.

Jackal: Are you talking

Kai: about virtually Jekyll?

Jackal: Yeah, I'm talking about a virtual coffee hour because you, you and I aren't geographically close, but like having a virtual coffee hour once every three months or something, you know, like just to kind of get together in that, like that social aspect. I think that that's a really, an idea that we would put into practice.

Jackal: I mean, like I said, we're both overextended, so it's like taking one more day to like do something like that is, uh, for me a little bit, um. Taxing mentally, but, uh, but it's not that I don't need it. It's just, you know,

Kai: God, it's not as [01:58:00] simple as putting a zoom invite onto the internet, which I would not, I know exactly.

Kai: Right. So it's like, yeah, let's do that. And it's like, wait a minute. Got to back up. Let's think. What are the logistics? And who do, how are we going to screen people out to keep everybody safe? I don't want just anybody from the internet who has an email account or Instagram account jumping in. And that could be.

Kai: Why not? It's really horrible. Yeah. With the mentoring program, we've had to ask people to fill out forms and that's why. It's because we want to make sure we match people up and that we get a sense of who they are and that we're not having people who aren't trans on there.

Jackal: But you know, maybe that's a good place to start.

Jackal: Like we. I mean, I don't know if you wanna have all of this conversation in, in our reflections, , but like maybe that's a good place to start, because I know that we're having, we need more mentors. Yeah. And we have a lot of quote unquote mentees that are on the waiting list. Yeah. Why don't we start there, like with the, invite our guests, invite the, the mentees and say, here's a coffee [01:59:00] hour.

Jackal: And like have it just be like not kind of a mentee mentor. Meetup, but just a coffee hour and whoever shows up, she shows up. And maybe from there, a natural connection would occur

Kai: or something. I don't know. Definitely want to shout out to our guests, especially the ones that have said they'd be interested in doing mentoring, which some of them have stepped up and it's great.

Kai: And they're like, yes, I'm in. I really feel for the, our brothers who are expressing to us that they feel irrelevant and invisible and so disconnected. And at that, those are the people I want to connect with. And also I want the younger people, the newer transitioning people, whatever their chronological age is, I want to be able to meet some of these people.

Kai: And there's so much that we can exchange with each other across the generations. That's going to benefit everybody.

Jackal: Thank you for today, Kai. I think we did a good job,

Kai: good job, Jekyll. And thank you to Tristan for being up. Yeah, of course.

Jackal: [02:00:00] And now it's time for Transponder. So today's Transponder question is what do you think about trans male pregnancy? Is it triggering for you, exciting for you, or something completely different? You can answer this question on our Instagram page, Transmasculine Podcast, or our ex feed at Podcast Stealth.

Jackal: We look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight. Expertise and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today, Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before.

Jackal: the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority. [02:01:00] In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids.

Jackal: Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community.

Jackal: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. As we enter season four, we are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot.

Jackal: So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside [02:02:00] entity. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know.

Jackal: Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. You can find us On Instagram, trans Masculine Podcast on X, formerly Twitter at podcast stealth on YouTube stealth, a trans masculine podcast.

Jackal: And be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast.com. Thank you for joining us. Until next time.