Shawn is a black queer trans man who uses his lived experiences to inform his intersectional approach to addressing systemic issues related to access to non biased healthcare and gender affirming surgery. Shawn is a dogged advocate, talented artist, a gifted storyteller whose style is warm and engaging. Shawn has nine years of experience as the executive director of Dem Bois Inc. Dem Bois Inc is a 501(c)(3) organization with the mission to provide charitable financial assistance for female to male, FTM, trans-masculine identified person(s) of color for them to obtain chest reconstruction surgery, and or genital reassignment surgery (gender-affirming surgery) to help them on their journey to live physically, and mentally authentic lives. Dem Bois Inc. exists in order to prevent the overwhelming feelings of dysphoria among trans men of color who have disproportionate access to quality healthcare and/or the financial means to obtain gender-affirming surgeries. Dem Bois Inc is run by trans men of color and their allies who understand the importance of accessing medical transition related care. If you’d like to donate to the gender affirming surgery fund, go to Dem Bois Inc.

Shawn founded and hosts the Dem Bois Podcast. Shawn’s podcast aims to serve as a platform to highlight and amplify the voices of trans men of color and share their transition stories. The Dem Bois Podcast covers other issues related to being a trans man of color, such as dating, fitness, sex, mental health, family, and other topics related to our existence. The podcast aims to amplify trans men of color voices and raise awareness of our lived experiences. Shawn and his guests share heartfelt stories about the experiences of trans men of color. Kai and Jackal are big fans of his show, and in awe of his passion and drive.

Shawn FINAL S5 E1

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome back. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to that, our stories are very often overlooked.

Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have [00:01:00] impacted us in many ways.

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition.

Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy. We are [00:02:00] contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Adam: Today's interview is with Sean Aaron. Sean is a black trans queer man who uses his lived experiences to inform his intersectional approach to addressing systemic issues related to access to non biased healthcare and gender affirming surgery. Sean has nine years of experience as the executive director of Demboys Inc.

Adam: and leading community training. Sean is also the host of Demboys podcast. He's on a mission to increase visibility, which he believes is key to unlocking the possibilities for trans men of color. for listening. Sean's tranniversary is 2013, an explosive year, both metaphorically and, unfortunately, quite literally.

Adam: 2013 was the year of the Boston Marathon bombing, which resulted in the deaths of two people and the injury of nearly 300. It was also the year of George Zimmerman's trial for the murder of Trayvon Martin, and, in the wake of the much contested not guilty verdict, the genesis of the Black Lives Matter [00:03:00] movement.

Adam: 2013 also marked the first shutdown of the American government, mostly over the Affordable Care Act, which marked the beginning of a brand new era of childlike partisan tactics. It was also the year the city of Detroit declared bankruptcy, and the year that New York mayoral hopeful Anthony Weiner was caught in yet another sexing scandal.

Adam: In 2013, we lost notable global figures Nelson Mandela, Margaret Thatcher, Robert Ebert, and Lou Reed. Meanwhile, in the UK, Prince William and Kate Middleton welcomed their first son, Prince George. Some of the biggest headlines of the year centered around gay rights. In June, the U. S. Supreme Court cleared the way for the subsequent legalization of gay marriage by ruling against part of the Defense of Marriage Act, which, in a 5 4 ruling, was found unconstitutional.

Adam: In a separate case, California's ban on same sex marriage was overturned in a federal appeals court. The U. S. Senate got its first openly gay member, and Congress had its largest ever [00:04:00] LGBTQ caucus, with a whopping seven openly queer members by the end of the year. In keeping with the queer themes of 2013, Disney's Frozen was the top grossing film of the year, followed by Iron Man 3 and Despicable Me 2.

Adam: 2013 was the year that the Harlem Shake video went viral, along with Norwegian pop band Ilves unforgettable video, What Does the Fox Say? To kick off Season 5, we're going to lead in with music from our resident singer songwriter, Ed Vargas, with his band, Eddie and the [00:05:00] Heartbeats.

Shawn Aaron: Hey, this is Shawn Aaron, he, him, his. And I'm here to tell you about Dem Boys Podcast. I'm the host of Dem Boys Podcast.. And as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color. As we share our transition stories, the podcast not only amplifies the voices of trans men of color, but it raises awareness and conversations around our lived experiences.

Shawn Aaron: You can listen to the podcast by going to them boys. podcast. That's D E M B O I S. org forward slash podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next episode.

Jackal: welcome back everybody to season five. Yes. Five of the trans masculine podcast of stealth, the trans masculine podcast. We are really excited to be here. [00:06:00] And our first guest is Shawn Aaron of Dem bois. If you know the Dem Bois podcast or the Dem Bois website. And we're really excited to have you here, Shawn, how are you doing?

Shawn: I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate being a guest here.

Jackal: We appreciate you for sure. Shawn, how and when did you learn about trans masculine identities?

Shawn: Oh I transitioned later in life. So in my early thirties, so it wasn't until maybe my mid twenties that I, I discovered the identity, but I was battling with it. If it fit me as a person or not I, I came in contact with someone who was a personal trainer of mine and he was a trans masculine identified person and it propelled my, the way I thought about my identity and myself.

Shawn: And so I would like to say it happened later in my life.

Jackal: Awesome. And so how did you [00:07:00] begin your own transition? Like, so walk me through like early twenties, you met this guy, you were struggling. It fit. Maybe it didn't, you were like wrestling with it. And then now you have transitioned. What were your steps?

 It was hard at first, well, because in every step in my identity, I was comfortable right. First identified as lesbian. And in my life, I would like to say that I never really had a dysphoria with my body. I never really had a dysphoria with who I was and how I identified. I just went along the process and I was okay in every spot that I went into.

Shawn: But then as I got a little bit older and I started to realize like some of the things in the way that folks address me, maybe it was ma'am, miss, Things like that or going into the women's restroom didn't really sit really well with me, but I didn't understand what that meant on a personal level for me.

Shawn: I just thought I'm just feeling uncomfortable. I'll get over it. Right. And so I like to say my big brother, I have a big brother that [00:08:00] transition at work. Well actually he quit in order to transition. He didn't feel comfortable doing it at work, but from that moment when I met, when me and him started to talk about, I was like, whoa, what is, I had to analyze, like, what did that mean for me in my life?

Shawn: And so was it just that I was feeling uncomfortable in these spaces, these gender specific spaces or gender specific terms? Or was it because I was, I wanted to transition myself. And so, I think that when I met the personal trainer, I didn't know that he was trans identified until he asked me, did I identify as trans?

Shawn: And I was like, wait no, I don't think so. Right.

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Shawn: took some serious, I want to say soul searching to figure out what it meant. To be a trans person and what, where I was in my life and what I was looking to accomplish later in my life. And I think that medically transition, I just thought, no, that, that wasn't for me.

Shawn: That's when I said transition, I mean testosterone. And I just was like, that wasn't for me. And so I was like, but I knew that I wanted to have top surgery. [00:09:00] That was, that, that was going to happen regardless. I didn't think that that had anything to do with my gender identity. I just thought, Hey. Like my chest is going to be gone regardless of it.

Shawn: I don't want to tell you when and chop them off myself. They're going to be gone. Right. And so, I think that when he asked me that question, I had to think about it. And I felt so uncomfortable that I actually stopped training with him because I wanted to separate his influence and how I felt about myself as a person.

Shawn: And so I didn't want that to affect me of, Oh, I'm doing it because he's doing it or he did. He was a blessing in my life, though, because that's the first time I ever went to the Trans March in San Francisco. He took me, and so I got to see other people and what trans identity meant in such a broad view.

Shawn: How everyone saw themselves as a trans person at the Trans March, but it looked different for each and every person.

Jackal: Yeah.

Shawn: Really think like, wow, what does it mean for [00:10:00] me? And I've always been a masculine person my entire life. And so being masculine, wasn't something that was foreign to me, but it was just transitioning into how the world would see me now.

Shawn: It's not just a masculine of center woman, but now you're to be seen as a black man. And so I was just like, I was worried because I was married at the time and I had, I was raising a child and that was my first worry was like, how am I going to tell my son? How am I going to tell my partner? My partner identified as lesbian.

Shawn: So it's like, well, if I transition, we won't be seen as a lesbian couple anymore. Right. And so I think that once I talked to my wife at the time, and once I talked to my son, my son was the one that gave me the, okay, let's do it. And those were his exact words. And I think after that, it was like, it just, It just felt right and I was like, well, I do want to medically transition.

Shawn: So I am going to start, taking testosterone. And once I got the love and acceptance from my home, my home base [00:11:00] son the other folks that are closely linked to me, I was like, there's nothing else to do it, but to do it. And then now I'm here. Right. So,

Jackal: very nice. I love that story. I have one, one thing just, I, I so relate to the idea of being comfortable in every phase of my life, like not having a lot of dysphoria. And still needing wanting to transition at some point in my life like that. I can really, really relate to. So I appreciate you sharing that.

Jackal: And then you brought up something which really leads into another question that we have is how was it transitioning from being a black woman to a black man? Like, how do you think your social standings impacted your ability to transition your, your experience in transitioning?

Shawn: I think I wasn't really faced with that until I was actually in the process. Yeah. There's definitely a different let's be real, right. Of how black folks are viewed in this country [00:12:00] and a black man are viewed in this country. And I'm continuously met with the, the way I'm viewed as a black man on a daily.

Shawn: And sometimes I don't realize it because, because I'm just as happy go lucky guy, right? I, I, I, I won't hurt anybody. I don't want to harm anybody. I'm just walking, in my life as who I am. Right. And

Jackal: many, most as most black men are.

Shawn: yes, absolutely. Absolutely. That's a very good, good way to put that. But the way the, the macro aggressions, how people view me and what they think that I'm supposed to be, it's a totally different thing.

Shawn: Right. And I just want to just like really quickly, just say like to people, when, when you do certain things and act in a certain way, it, and it may not be my intention. You bring that to me. Right. So if you, I'm walking past you and you lock your door and you think you're doing it secretly. I see that. I feel that. So, I think that I am, I don't, I don't see it in that way, really. I'm, I'm just really being Shawn. That's the only [00:13:00] thing that I can be. I can't, I can't please other people and, and please other people's ideas of who they think that I am. I can only live for me. I hope that that, that kind of answered the question.

Jackal: Yeah, it does. I mean, I do want to hold onto it for one second. And that is that because we hear a lot about like toxic masculinity as opposed to like positive masculinity or the masculinity that exists. In there and out there and then our experiences as a fab trans masculine people. I also relate to sometimes I don't remember that people see me as, as male or my psyche isn't always connecting to them and their experience of seeing me as a cisgendered man or cisgendered white man.

 How does that process work for you as not always realizing that people are seeing you as a cisgendered black man? Yeah,

Shawn: is tricky, especially when I hear you asking. It's like, it's tricky and it goes situation to situation, [00:14:00] but to speak on a toxic masculinity part, I feel I had some really, I was blessed to have some really healthy men in my life. And so I think that as I, when I say healthy man, I mean like my uncle's.

Shawn: And I grew up in church. So some of the folks that I would closely linked when in church, like my grandmother's best friend, her husband, like these are, are people that I really admired growing up. And I guess because it matches my own identity now. Right. But I didn't understand it as a child, but I think that some of these little pieces of the men that I admired, I took with me.

Shawn: And. And I still think yes being seen as a, a black man I think, right, I, the intersectionality of who I once was and who I am now it just carried on right and it just, it's, I'm still the same person I think that is just in a different package. [00:15:00] And a lot of these things that. I admired and other folks, I just carried them on with me, right?

Shawn: It wasn't like I needed to find another identity as a Black man. I needed to act another way as a Black man. Hey, I'm going to be me, exactly who I am, just in this frame. And so I don't think that it took any any molding or reshaping of who I am once I transitioned. I just It's just a continuation of.

Jackal: I appreciate that.

Kai: You're touching on so many things if I'm thinking about my own experience of transition and contemplating that, and My presentation to the world and how people perceive me, I was hyper aware of how people were responding to me. And you were talking about a sensitivity to, people.

Kai: I think you said, you're bringing something to me. If you lock your door across the street, you're bringing something to me, like you're, you're aware of that. And as a community with all the intersectionalities that we have, that we bring to this [00:16:00] world and exist in, deciding to transition and really go through the process of whatever that means for someone can have implications that are unforeseen.

Kai: And you're, you're highlighting a lot of those, how can you know what you don't know? Right. Depending on how you present, and how people experience you and how you experience your life. And I really appreciate that you said, I'm not going to worry about how other people think this should go.

Kai: Right. And you separated yourself from your trainer. And you're like, I'm going to figure this out on my own. Do you remember, Shawn, back in the day what some of the things that you heard, or maybe you were told about how you should live your life as a trans guy?

Shawn: I do, and a lot of it was toxic. I tried to cling on to some older trans men at the time, and I had to also separate myself from some of them, because some of the things that they were telling me about the experience as a trans man, Things that I didn't I didn't believe it. And so I put my mind to be [00:17:00] warped.

Shawn: I was very aware, and I am continuously aware of things around me things that people say and that those particular things that they said with their words. Their experiences with life, and I didn't want the experiences based on what they say. And so I did a lot of separating. I did a lot of separated in my life.

Shawn: I separated myself from a lot of people, and it came to a point where it was just me, my wife and my son. I had no friends. I had nothing because I wanted to start this journey fresh, if that makes sense. And I didn't want anything to shape who and what I was going to be.

Kai: Thank you. And yeah, if I may just ask a follow up on thinking about identities and when you were with your wife, you were talking about shifting from being a lesbian couple to being something different. Did you experience, while you were content in that identity as you moved forward, did you experience any, any sense of loss of that identity and [00:18:00] connection that you shared with your wife at the time?

Shawn: Yes, that caused a lot of rift our relationship. And I think that a lot of the rift was my own doings because she loved me regardless, but I just, I didn't see that. And I think it So the language that was being used by her and myself, that wasn't meshing with each other. And instead of us sitting down to have a conversation about it, we went on our own understanding and it it caused a lot of issues.

Shawn: And I think for me personally, just, I grew up in lesbian spaces.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Shawn: Most of my friends as I, when I grew up were lesbian identified folks. And so this is a community that I knew.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Shawn: And I grew up with we all grew up with each other in the club and, farming and all of these things. Right. And then to where I, and I, and I think back now is like when you were in the club, you're at a lesbian party or whatever.

Shawn: And then this guy [00:19:00] walks in like it was this moment, so it was this

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Shawn: Doesn't he know we're all lesbians, right? And so, in my mind, that, when I started to transition and as I began to have a more passing appearance, that's when I started to feel internally that people would think of me when I walked into places.

Kai: Mm hmm.

Shawn: My wife at the time would be like, yo, they all know you, you trippin they all love and adore you, like, why would you feel that they would, well yes, but I didn't also want to be that man taking up space. I'm going to say, as men, but as, just as the masculine energy when we're, it's not necessarily invited. It's different from being a masculine center woman in a, in a masculine identified man is different. And so I'm comfortable. And so I isolated myself a lot. And so to answer your question, it caused a lot, because she would be adamant about, I'm a lesbian. Well, I mean, I don't look like a lesbian. So how, it's like, [00:20:00] Physically wise, but body wise, if we're having sexual relationship, yes, maybe okay, these certain parts, but it's like physically and when we go out, that's not what other folks see. So

Kai: Mm hmm.

Shawn: We're at a good point now in our relationship and not being together but we communicate more and we sometimes say, Oh, I wish we would have communicated them.

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm

Jackal: Hey, I have a follow up question about that because you, and thank you, that was very eloquent. So you talked about the microaggressions that you could get as a black man and you talked about being sensitive to the lesbian spaces as a no longer lesbian identified person did you experience microaggressions within the lesbian community towards your trans masculine identity?

Shawn: I did not, because I.

Jackal: Awesome.

Shawn: didn't give it enough time to be around it, but I think she was right of the people that I do know and then do know about my identity, they, they do care about me so that never came [00:21:00] out. Right. And I think that also plays the how you treat people.

Kai: You're you're highlighting A time difference too, because back in the nineties where I transitioned and Jackal transition in the nineties, I was very much a part of the Dyke community. And I, while I felt like that was the best fit, it wasn't the right fit entirely. And it was a sanctuary for me.

Kai: In the bars, and I was around people who I could be almost myself, and as I came to discover the more masculine side of myself, which is less present these days, there were some women in the bars that would make comments about me or why is this guy in here? This is before I even medically transition. I remember going in the restroom once and this woman had just gotten in there. and she was scowling at me. , I experienced a huge amount of loss and I completely separated myself from the Dyke community when I started, started out.

Kai: I, I did not continue to go into the bars and I, I separated myself from a lot of friends, ? It's such an interesting [00:22:00] thing to hear you say that it's highly likely you would have been accepted. And you were also really paying attention to how you may occupy space, so I appreciate that.

Kai: Our show is actually called stealth, a trans masculine podcast. We talk to folks who are in various, they live their lives in various ways. Some are more open and, and disclosed all the time. And others live a lower disclosing lifestyle or stealth lifestyle. So would you mind just sharing, Shawn, what does stealth mean to you?

Shawn: Stealth means to me, if I can pick one word safety.

Kai: Okay.

Shawn: know. And, and, and stealth can also be very lonely. I think, I think that's another word to say would be lonely. I don't particularly live my life in a full stealth mode. Right. But I'm not just going to walk into the grocery store and [00:23:00] get the mic on the intercom and say, Hey, I'm a, face identify.

Shawn: person on aisle three, right? I'm not gonna, do that, but I feel like it's, it's, it's safety and it's lonely. Lonely because it can be romantically lonely as well. Because if you don't have someone that you went through a transition with it's hard to meet folks on that level. And I've talked to many trans folks about this because you gotta disclose a whole bunch of stuff, right?

Shawn: It's like, by the way, and so, But I think a lot of folks choose it for safety. And so I do as well in certain spaces. I don't, I'm, I'm an open book, right? I have, I'm on this podcast and, and, and then my own Dem boys podcast. Yes. I talk about my life. Right. I dispose all of these things about me but when I'm walking into certain places unless you specifically know who I am, I'm not going to just put that out there because of for safety. And so yeah and so sometimes it can. It shifts the way you communicate with people, right? And so like, if I'm sitting at the bar and [00:24:00] we're talking about baseball, I can't say, oh yeah, I played baseball as a kid. No, I didn't play baseball, I played softball.

Kai: Yeah, me too. . Mm-Hmm.

Shawn: So that, that me saying, oh, I play softball, that would give it away of like, wait, what do you mean you play softball?

Shawn: Right? So it's like, or I could say, oh, I play basketball, but I'm 5'3 And so if I'm Still got a six foot that said, oh yeah, I played basketball. Well what team did I play for? And I'm five three. Right? It's like that, it can be lonely and it can, but in, in a way it, it, it is safe to just. Just like blend in, right?

Kai: Yeah. And I, I really can relate to shifting stories and narratives and saying, like, I played ball, I, I used to play my dreams of playing basketball. Were crush. I was five five and I sucked at basketball. But I liked the running part, so anyway, thank you very much for, for sharing that.

Kai: And I, I think. That sense of safety and isolation really hits home. , it can be both like a very protective thing to, to live a lower disclosing lifestyle, but also there can be some costs to [00:25:00] it. And I'm really intrigued by the dating comment that you're mentioning and all that, but I'm going to move on and ask you, have there been periods in your life where you've lived a lower disclosing lifestyle? Period of time.

Shawn: Lower disclosing when I didn't tell anyone?

Kai: Yeah. , have there been periods of time in your life where you lived a low to a non disclosing lifestyle?

Shawn: Quite often actually. I think I'm like that all the time and I'm, I'm constantly met with should I disclose who I am or should I not, right? If the time presents itself possibly. But mostly no, but if. If I'm having what a stranger goes into an area of transphobia or something that I feel like somebody needs to be educated on what they're saying and how they're saying it, I may disclose or I may speak as an ally, But still maintaining being stealth and not letting an individual know exactly how I had my, my privilege to this [00:26:00] information. It's it goes on a day to day and person to person situation a situation of if I'm going to disclose who I am fully, but to answer your question, 90 percent of the time, I'm below the rail.

Kai: That's really interesting. You are a podcast host. You do a lot of work for the community. You elevate the voices of trans men, trans masc folks of color. You provide funding for folks having gender affirming surgeries. That seems like a big part of your time in your life. How do you manage that in conversation with folks who, when you're living a low disclosing lifestyle, like what if somebody says, what do you do for a living?

Shawn: That is a really good question because a lot of times I'll make something up. I will lie.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: What do you say? What do you say? Because I run into the same thing, right? Like tell people like, I have a podcast or I have a podcast [00:27:00] interview this weekend, dah, dah, dah. And they're like, Oh, what's your podcast about? And then I'm like,

Kai: Cookies.

Jackal: Hmm, cookies baking. We talk about Kai's baking and sporty spice running.

Jackal: It's running. What do you, so what's the story you come up with? What is it? I want to hear. I want to know, please.

Shawn: I really like so outside of Dem Boys, I actually do have a full time job, another full time job that then boys full time and then I have another job that I've been doing for 21 years now. So I usually divert back to that, but I don't normally I don't. I'm at a point in that career where I'm, I'm not really connected to it as much, but I'll use it.

Shawn: Just say I'm a security manager, or I'll say I do personal security. I've said before I've said I help people. I've said things like

Kai: Mm hmm.

Shawn: Try to skirt around it. If people ask me questions, I say, Oh, what do you do? Right? So I try to [00:28:00] quickly change the conversation. But most of the time I'll say, Oh, I'm a bodyguard.

Shawn: I do personal security is what I normally say. And people will look at me. Yeah, five, three, but my statue, people be like, Oh, I can see that. Yeah. Okay. No.

Kai: That sounds very cool and mysterious.

Shawn: Kind of ambiguous, right? It's like, what do you really do? I'm like, Oh, I do personal security. I can't really talk about it because the people that I protect. Yeah.

Jackal: Yeah, Whitney Houston.

Shawn: Yeah,

Kai: I wish I could try that, but I don't think people would buy it. Then I would say personal security,

Jackal: You're too tiny.

Kai: Doesn't sync.

Jackal: 95 pounds fully wet.

Kai: Okay. , Shawn, over time has your level of disclosure or nondisclosure shifted? And if so, how?

Shawn: I think, I think now is more, it has shifted. And I don't even know now that I'm, that you're asking me, I'm almost feel like. I almost feel a little embarrassed. I feel like I have not [00:29:00] been as open as I should be right and you think I'm like, Oh, this advocate and I should be speaking and screaming it. You know that the top of my lungs from the highest rooftop right but it's like, I don't always choose to do that.

Shawn: And I just most of the time I just want to be Shawn right I want to be that. His friend significant other, spouse, parent, grandparent now, right? I don't always want to wear my identity on my sleeve. I feel embarrassed because I feel guilty for that. Maybe I should, maybe I should disclose it more often.

Shawn: But I don't. And people think, oh, you're in California. It's cool. No, not really, right?

Kai: Mm hmm.

Shawn: my safety because we have these pockets of people who don't think that I should be around, does not think. Should exist in as a black man or a trans person or whatever queer person And so it's just safer for me to just be all those other identities and leave out the trans part sometimes

Kai: Yeah, one last thing before we move on to the next question is you're raising this, many of the people that we've [00:30:00] interviewed and ourselves included, as we feel this obligation to do more and to be of service to our community in ways. And maybe that's disclosing more or doing another gig, who knows, but I just think you're probably, I know you're touching lives. And what you do, this is me reassuring you and just giving you props because your show is really beautiful and what you're doing is really beautiful and what you're giving back to the folks. I know you're touching lives and I'm certain you're hearing back from folks and that your listenership is growing.

Kai: So I really appreciate what you do. And I just want to say that out loud.

Jackal: No, thank you, Kai. That's, that's beautiful. And yeah, and really my thoughts on that is like, life is hard sometimes. Like it's just enough for me to get through the day. I don't need to bring my gender identity into every conversation because it's exhausting, like I'm exhausted already.

Jackal: I don't need to be more exhausted by. Playing interference [00:31:00] with other people's assumptions or problems with my gender identity. Like I just can't. So especially having an intersectional identity with, all the microaggressions you're getting as a black man, I can see why you would choose to not come out every time as trans. And as Kai says, you're already doing so much. You might not come out to everybody that you meet, but you're have this Demboys podcast that you are phenomenally impacting people's lives and promoting voices. So thank you. And congratulations. So speaking of that, what are some milestones Demboys included, if you want to talk about that, or. What are some of the milestones, successes, or challenges that you have had in your life post transition in the last 10 years?

Shawn: I think the the biggest Challenge has been relationship [00:32:00] maintaining relationships and building new ones. I've had to, I've always considered myself a mature person, but I felt like over the years, especially after transitioning, I had to grow up again. And I had to really mature as a person mature as, as I want to say, I'm going to just say as a man, I had to mature as the man I identify with because there was a lot of things that were strained that I had to fix and, and it was my responsibility.

Shawn: To my responsibility to fix some of those things. And so I think that to answer your question like the biggest thing was relationships. One of the big

Jackal: Okay, let me ask you a question before you move on from that. So we've been talking about disclosure, we've been talking about living stealth, and this idea of relationships, like post transition, when people see you as a cisgender Black man and you're a transgender Black man, how do you come out to people?

Jackal: How [00:33:00] have you come out to people? How have you developed new friendships post transition?

Shawn: A lot of times I'm just Shawn and I don't come out to folks unless I feel 100 percent comfortable. So are we talking about friendships or dating or,

Jackal: However you define it, whatever you wanna talk about.

Shawn: I could say in a dating aspect, I'll go there because I haven't talked about that. And so I met someone recently, some months ago, and we hit it off, right? It wasn't like, oh, okay, love at first sight type of thing. Well, not for me, but it was like we had a conversation over the phone.

Shawn: And. She, she was like I would love to go out with you. And I was like, Oh my goodness, so I was nervous, because she is a straight identified woman I tried to ask questions about queer community she had no idea.

Shawn: And so this was new to her. And so I said, Hey, I need to just tell you that. And I said it just like that. I have something to tell you. And she was like, [00:34:00] well, what is it? I don't, she was just like, I don't think anything, that you could tell me, I would feel any type of way about it. I like who you are as a person.

Shawn: I was like, okay, well, and I said it real fast. I'm a trans man. And she just was quiet. I was like, well, if she stopped talking to me, that's all right. We just started talking. Right. And he's just like, okay, let's block her. And we carry on with life. Right. Like she never met me. And then she was like, Oh, that's interesting.

Shawn: What is that? And I was like, Oh gosh, I hate

Jackal: 1 0 1. 1 0 1.

Shawn: But I, I felt a sense of pride. It was like, Oh wait, I've never been here before.

Jackal: Mm

Shawn: I'm going to do this. I want to do this right. Right. So she get. And so if she ever has another interaction with another person, if it's not me, she'll understand this.

Jackal: mm

Shawn: Literally walked her through it step by step. You can ask me whatever question is fine. I don't care. And she said, well, she asked me all kinds of questions. Some were strange and some was like, okay, that's to be expected with someone that has no experience with a trans person. And then after we were done, she was like, Oh, that's cool.

Shawn: I still [00:35:00] like you. And I was like,

Kai: Oh. You can cuss! We cuss all the time, we got

Shawn: Okay. Okay, good. I have a potty mouth and you've heard the pot. Yeah. And so yeah, I was just like, Oh, wow. Right. And it was like, okay, I can do this then with people, but I can't say that with every person. It was just perceived her and how I thought maybe she would take it. And if that was just going to be fine right I was gonna block her and then we will be done. So I think it's, it's hard sometimes, but it just like I was saying before, I'm really big on energy and I can feel people's energy. I feel like that's one of my superpowers. It's like my gift. And so I can kind of sense when and when I should not be wasting my time. Pick that up very, very well.

 I don't know, it's like a Spidey sense almost, but I, it's almost a blessing and a curse. And so I tend to be able to tell like, okay, no, this is not a safe environment for me and mental and I'm not going to put myself out there like that. [00:36:00] So this was just one incident where where went well.

Jackal: Yeah, I think a lot of us, especially in our community, who have a lot of experience with microaggressions have that spidey sense, I think that it's kind of part of our, experience and maybe double, doubly so for intersectionality.

Kai: I can appreciate this you're sizing her up and getting a feel for her and saying, I can take this or leave this, but I'll give it a go. And you did her a solid by letting her in. And that, and sounds like it went on to me, my heart dropped when he said, I'm good with that.

Kai: Now let's move on. It's like, oh shit. Now we're getting real. Hopefully things go as you hope with this person and they're, it's a nice ride. Good for you for putting yourself out there. So currently I, we know that you're part of Dem Boys Inc and you have podcast and you're busy, you have a full time gig.

Kai: What's going on in your life? Tell us a little bit about your life now, these days.

Shawn: Oh, most of the time in my [00:37:00] life right now is work. So, it's, it's a lot of work in and building the capacity of Dem boys. Just to be really transparent so that them boys can be my full time gig. I feel Dem Boys is my purpose in life. It took a long time to really hone into my purpose. And, and so it's, it's all work, work, work right now.

Shawn: It's what it's like. My son is an adult. And so I don't have to be a parent full time parent all the time. He don't tell him that I'm not his dad because he will fight you. At the time I was his birth mother. I never wanted to birth children myself, my whole life. That was not something that I ever wanted to do. And I, in actuality, based on my childhood, I never wanted to have children at all. And so this was a blessing how he came into my life and we hit it off immediately. The first day we met and we have our own relationship outside of [00:38:00] her. He calls me dad. I never told him that I never said, Hey, call me dad. Now this was just something that he just did.

Kai: I have so many questions , what I'd like to do is just ask you to talk about your podcast. Where do you see it going? You're investing so much energy in that. Talk to us about how you envision it going. Are you surprised by things, where do you want to go with this?

Shawn: I would like to continue Dem Boys podcast long term. I genuinely enjoy it. I genuinely enjoy holding space for folks to come on and share their stories and just to show that, just to show the world right for folks who are trans identified and not that we are here. We have been here, we're going to be here.

Shawn: Our thing is visibility equals possibility. And to leave an ancestral presence for future trans folks to be able to tap into these stories, 20, 30, however the, years ahead of like, Hey, this is what trans folks was doing at this time. Right. And so gratefully Dem [00:39:00] Boys podcast is actually wrapping up season two now.

Kai: Yay.

Jackal: Congratulations. Do you do this all by yourself?

Shawn: Yes and no. So I have a podcast producer and I just record the episodes and then she does all the, the, the audio work. And then I do the graphics. So we share the graphic workload. Just saying, do all of it.

Jackal: Your brain child, your baby.

Shawn: yes.

Jackal: Tell us more about that because I'm super interested. How did it get started

Shawn: very good question. It started on accident. I'm shy. Believe it or not. I'm an introvert. Believe it or not.

Jackal: So it was Kai, believe it or not.

Shawn: Wow. Yeah. Surprising. Right? I had a friend because people, everybody in my life say I'm long winded. I'm very long winded. I'm very dramatic. I am extremely dramatic. And I act out all types of scenes and scenarios for [00:40:00] folks, and I don't know if it gets on people's nerves or not.

Shawn: I don't know. Nobody tell me it gets on their nerves, but I'm going to continue to be dramatic because that's my personality. And so I was telling a story and one of my friends is like, you should have a podcast. And I was like, there's a niche of stories that are just not being told and the way that you communicate, you would be so great in this.

Shawn: And I was like, shut up. I would never do that. I'm too damn shy. Shut up. But it's something, it was a seed planted in my head. And then I just couldn't stop thinking about it. I was taking a shower and I was so dramatic because I'm in the shower talking out episodes, like if I really had a show and I slept on it. And so then I raced out to the podcast producer I'm working with now because she was referred to me. And so once I talked to her, I was like, yo, this is it. I think I can do this. A lot to say, and I feel like my, [00:41:00] even my own story can help some folks. Right. And so I just, I just, I just was like, let's do it.

Shawn: And I've been talking ever since. So we'll be back it's so exciting.

Shawn: And, and I feel like it's, it's, I'm stepping into my purpose and if it really feels good here. And so the season three should probably be kicking off later in this year.

Kai: Where do you want it to go? Can you tell us, if you don't mind sharing, just about your purpose? What does it do for you? What does it do for your community? For our community?

Shawn: It brings me a lot of joy and it also, it brings, it brings a sense of belonging to folks. I've had folks say, I've never heard my story told by somebody else before. I've had somebody say, I didn't even know they were older trans folks.

Shawn: Right. I like some people say, I thought this was a new, right. I've had, even parents, I have had a parent child. Right. And it's like, please help my child. These stories have helped my child. Right. And [00:42:00] so, I think that it brings hope and it brings possibility and it brings Joy and it brings like, Hey, I'm not alone.

Shawn: I am not alone. Somebody across the country, just this might not be my story, but they just told my story. I don't have the courage to tell my own story, but somebody else just told my story. And I don't feel alone.

Kai: Hmm. Well, that's beautiful, especially when we're so isolated. Sometimes, if we are lower disclosing or not connected to folks, or there was a time when I didn't, it had been years since I even told somebody I was trans outside of a doctor. I mean, really, I was years before I, before I told someone at work or in my personal life.

Kai: And that was such a strange thing. Go ahead.

Jackal: no geographic isolation is intense, like sometimes it's the geography and I know for you that was the case in particular so

Kai: Yeah. So thank you so much for sharing that and I'm glad you're getting feedback from people and people are really connecting to your work and hearing your voice and the [00:43:00] voices of your guests. It's so important and you're right. We've been here and we're not going anywhere.

Jackal: So what kind of support do you have now and what do you think you'll need? In your future, like as you age.

Shawn: Oh, that's a good question. And It's an emotional question for me, because I'm 43 and I did not think I was going to be 43 did not think I was going to make it. I did not see my life where it is right now. And so what's crazy about that is not crazy but the funny thing about that is, I didn't plan. I did not plan.

Jackal: for a future that you didn't think you'd have

Shawn: And so I'm finding myself now like you know I want to be here. I want to be here. There's a community that's that's that. Need Shawn also right and so I now I'm [00:44:00] like I am hustling and bustling to prepare my life start to jumpstart my life from now to be here another 20 years to be here another 25 years.

Shawn: And so, that's in a constantly loading question. I mean, but you know how you like you get on your phone and says loading loading right. It's loading. So I don't know what my future looks like because I'm building that.

Jackal: Nice.

Kai: It's actually really beautiful, Shawn. It's really beautiful. It just seems like endless opportunity and ability to create, and I'm so glad you're here.

Jackal: Yeah. I appreciate your rawness and your vulnerability and sharing about that. I'm very glad you're here.

Kai: And, optimism, about what the future holds.

Shawn: And I want to add a little piece to that. And just to bring up race, right? And in the black community, we don't have a large life expectancy. And [00:45:00] we have so many unarmed black men being murdered by police,

Jackal: Mm-Hmm

Shawn: health disparities,

Jackal: mm-Hmm.

Shawn: all of these things. So, it's, It's nothing in my community to be, to think, cause like even with my son, I remember when he turned 21 and he said, he told me and his mom, he was like, I'm an elder,

Jackal: mm

Kai: Oh, God.

Shawn: be 21 years old to say I've outlived a lot of my peers.

Jackal: right. Mm-Hmm

Shawn: Right. And so we don't get the privilege to think, we should, right? As human beings, we should, but we don't always get the, the, the, the privilege to think, Oh, well, this is what I'm going to do when I retire. This is what I'm going to do 20, 30, 40 years from now. Folks are just in, in some communities, in the black community of just living in this moment, right?

Shawn: That's not everybody's reality. Right. But we're talking about the bigger picture

Jackal: totally. Yeah. It's it's a very sad state of mind. And I just want to reiterate what Kai said, like your optimism about wanting to be [00:46:00] part of your children's lives and your grandchildren's lives and building your future. Even if it starts now, love it. Beautiful.

Kai: have a question about that. I, I witnessed my nephew being brought into the world and I didn't have kids, but I love the shit out of kids. And I saw my parents. interact with this little baby and it just really hit me so deep about the cycle of life, and just witnessing how they parented this kid.

Kai: And it was so healing to me to observe that and to experience this new little critter with no scars, no nothing, just who knew what the future holds. And now you're a grandfather, talk to us a little bit about that. What's it like to, to see this little grand baby?

Shawn: it's, it's a beautiful thing. Right. It's beautiful one because this is something my son wanted every little he always said I want to [00:47:00] be a parent before I'm 30. He, I don't know why he was so obsessed with this as a child, and so know that when he, because when he first told me all dad I'm having a baby, I just, I went, I went into parent mode and was like you're not ready blah blah blah you. Life set up and why would you want to do that? And then he said he said, Dad, I am ready. He was like the woman that I'm having my child with. I know she'll be a good mother. Even if we don't work out, I know my baby will be taken care of. He said, I've been saving my money. We got our own place. I'm ready.

Shawn: And so I ended up the phone with him and I thought about what he said. And I said, wait, I don't want to be like my mother was to me. And so I ended up calling him back and I said, you know what, son? I apologize. You act right. If you are ready to be a father. I'm here for it. I support you and he is a father.

Shawn: So to see and and he told me recently like everything that he his work ethic and who he is as a parent and all of these things is because of who I was [00:48:00] to him. And so to hear and to see him pouring into his baby in ways that I poured into him as a parent is it feels so great to win.

Kai: It's, thank you. I just think that's so incredibly special just to think that one, your kid paid attention and that, all of the years that little, little Shawn angel on, on his shoulder, he's, he's hearing that and he's able to feed that back to you and then play it forward with his own kid.

Kai: So thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that.

Jackal: We're nearing the end of our regular questions. So one of the things we ask is what would you like to say to newer trans and non binary folk? So

Shawn: First thing, excuse me, that comes into my mind is I love you.

Jackal: beautiful.

Shawn: We don't hear that enough. And I, and I may not know who you are. I may not know where you are in this world, but I see you and I love you and I believe in your [00:49:00] journey and just to push forward. Don't let anybody deter you from who you are, because we have a strong sense of who we are already on the inside and follow that.

Shawn: Follow that, that star, follow that north star of in with your internal self of who you are and continue pushing forward and continue surviving to be an example for other folks who may be looking, looking at you. I have to, there are people watching me and there's somebody watching you and to know that I love you and I'm all, I'm here for your journey.

Jackal: Beautiful. Love it. Thank you so much. You expressed it in this quite a bit in this last answer, but how do you think we can be more supportive of our transmasculine brothers, whether that be our transmasculine elders or the younger folks coming up?

Shawn: We be more supportive to continue to show up and do these things that we're doing, sharing, telling our stories and making sure as many stories as [00:50:00] possible are being told. And I love to say to be support more supportive to elders.

Jackal: Yeah. Did

Shawn: and I would love to talk to more elders as well and, but I think that there is this, this idea of like, especially now with social media like folks are saying, oh, you're poisoning our Children and like, no, we've been here.

Shawn: It's just weird. Information age and folks have more the ability to grab more information from different places, right? It's more, everything is more accessible. So people are able to see things that they weren't able to see before. So I think to continue to show up and share our stories and to grab as many stories as we can to share. I think that's a way to be more supportive to both young and trans folks.

Jackal: Last question. What do you think we should have asked that we didn't? Is there any famous last words of wisdom? You talked about dem boys, how to reach you, where to find the information, [00:51:00] anything like that, please.

Shawn: Yeah. So, to find me through Dem Boys, actually, you can just look up our website, D E M B O I S dot org. I'm on social media. I'm on Instagram. I'm not on Facebook that much.

Jackal: Is there any other words of wisdom that you would like to share that we didn't ask? Anything that we missed?

Shawn: No, I think everything has been wonderful. It's been great.

Jackal: We really appreciate you being on our show. I'm so thankful for Kai for finding you and reaching out and you accepting our offer.

Shawn: Let's thank. Yes,

Jackal: So we're here with our bonus questions with Shawn. Thank you for taking a little bit more time with us. Hey, you said you had an interesting naming story. Can you share your naming story with us? Mm hmm.

Shawn: so Shawn is a derivative of my birth name, am I sharing that it was a derivative of my middle birth name in my middle. Was Shante and people always call me Shawn anyway. I had my parents my friend's parents would always call me Sha [00:52:00] or Shawn or whatever. And so I, I always went with that.

Shawn: I led with that. I always loved Shawn. Shawn resonated with me, so I, I would always use Shawn anyway. And so, I always hated my first birth name. I never liked. But my middle name, Aaron, is the name that my son gave me. And so I was just gonna go with Shawn and then my last name, which I don't identify with anymore because I don't my birth father.

Shawn: So I don't even use that, and I'm gonna get that changed eventually. But it was just gonna be Shawn and then my last name. And then my son was like, well, dad, you need a middle name. I was like, why? He was like, everybody needs a middle name. I was like, well, I don't have no more ideas. I'm running out of ideas.

Shawn: If you could come up with a good middle name, I'll take it. And so he went with that. And so he kept coming back with certain names. I was like, nah, I don't like that. I don't like that. And then he said Aaron. And I was like, Oh, I like that. Shawn Aaron. And so, and Shawn Aaron, then my last name, but I've since shook the last name.

Shawn: And so I just go by Shawn [00:53:00] Aaron now.

Jackal: Thank you so much. Hey, so I have a double whammy question. One is about developing relationships or having relationships with cisgendered men, and what that's like for you. In your life, whether you're out to them or not, whether you disclose that to them or not.

Jackal: And I want to talk a little bit about passing privilege. Cause we talk about passing privilege, but we talk about passing privilege a lot from a white perspective. And so I want to know if there's any nuance for you, if, if passing privilege exists for you or what you, what your experiences are.

Shawn: Passing privilege does exist for me. I'm able. Gay spaces and nobody has any idea. Sometimes I mean, if I think that somebody thinks that I'm something else is because it's my own internal demons just working against me. Right. But for the most part, I can navigate through spaces as far as [00:54:00] cisgendered.

Shawn: Man, I don't always, I don't come out. That is more of a riskier space than coming out to a cisgendered woman, queer or non queer.

Jackal: Do you have friendships with cisgendered men that you consider close?

Shawn: Yes I do have a lot of cisgender friends, and mostly is most that I work with, actually, I have some really good relationship with some of the folks that I work with some know that I'm trans identified and some not.

Shawn: I've been working there for 21 years so a lot of the folks that do know or folks that's been working there just as long as I have some of the new folks. No, I don't share, but I recently became really good friends with one guy there and I did come out to him about my identity and our relationship has never has never shifted has never changed.

Shawn: We act the exact same way around each other. But for the most part, I tend to not say anything.

Kai: Many of us have joked about wanting to have some sort of code so that we can communicate with each other out in the [00:55:00] world. When you don't personally know someone, Shawn, but you, or you suspect they might be trans, when you meet them or you see them, how do you typically respond?

Shawn: I probably would introduce myself and say my pronouns. It's not a. A typical quote unquote, normal dialogue between two people, unless it's within the community or you're aware of the community or allies.

Jackal: Right. Especially cisgender men, right?

Shawn: Yes.

Kai: So you're tipping people off that would get it within the community and then, okay, I got you. And then if somebody were to know who you are, but not know you personally wanted to approach you, maybe they listen to your show or how would you suggest that someone approach you when they encounter you?

Shawn: I love that. I always been waiting for that. I just, I always been waiting for that, like that recognizable moment. So Hey, Shawn, what's up? I, listen to the podcast and I'll just know automatically what that's about. Right. Oh, love it. Waiting [00:56:00] for that moment.

Kai: Well, we did come looking for you. It's a little different. It's virtual.

Shawn: Yeah, Virgil, you have it in person? I would love that. Yeah, yes.

Jackal: You've reached star hood.

Shawn: Yeah, exactly.

Jackal: Again, if you have any last things that you would like to say, I think we're wrapping up on our questions.

Shawn: Nah, I think I'm good.

Jackal: All

Kai: you for your time, Shawn. Thank you so much for, for being here and for bringing it today. I really appreciate you letting us in and for really being open and honest and sharing some things that are really personal and meaningful. And thank you for the work you do and the service that you do for our communities.

Jackal: Yeah. Totally. And just so you know, we're not coming out anymore. We're letting people in. And like Kai says, we appreciate you letting us in. Beautiful. Amazing.

Kai: Thanks for talking to us old farts.

Shawn: And I'm old too, so hey, listen.

Jackal: Awesome.

Kai: Your interview was fantastic. Your story is going to add a lot to our show. And [00:57:00] I wish you nothing but the, yeah, just nothing but the best, Shawn.

Kai: Let's stay in touch.

Shawn: Yeah, definitely,

Kai: Thank you. Have a good day.

Jackal: Kai thank you so much for finding Shawn that was incredible. I know he's not in our generation ish thing for, you know, coming, you know, being 2013 or whatever, but really his voice added so much. I appreciate you finding him, reaching out to him. I appreciate him

Kai: I'm so glad I, that I came across his content and and actually had another friend say, Hey, you should check out Shawn's podcast. I'm really glad that we were able to connect and that he was able to take time to talk with us. I think he is going places. I found so many things within his talk today that stood out.

Kai: When we first started the interview, he was talking about the different phases of his life and he felt comfort during those phases and then, and yet shifted, right? So , had a lesbian identity and then a trans identity, and then I'm [00:58:00] not going to medically transition.

Kai: I'm not going to, all that stuff. And he didn't experience dysphoria. And one of the questions I had was, How did he at that time get testosterone, because back in the day, especially, maybe that's a generational difference is when in the 90s, we were told to create a story and say we were heterosexual, we had dysphoria, we were male, we were experiencing incongruence in our bodies.

Kai: And, aside from the fact that, He really was unhappy with his chest. He wasn't experiencing dysphoria. And it sounds like that, that resonated with you too.

Jackal: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I actually it's interesting that you say that because I did have the question of if he thought chest surgery before he started testosterone because that was not a path that we had available to us. Unless you really worked around the system like you could not get. You know, gender affirming chest surgery [00:59:00] before you started testosterone and lived your life as a quote unquote male for a year, blah, blah, blah.

Jackal: Like there was all of these rules and regulations and steps that you had to follow. And so, yeah, I was curious about that, but then he kind of like took his story in his own direction and I forgot to ask it, but you're right. That would have been a very interesting and curious place to be, because I think that that is a generational difference.

Kai: Yeah. I remember a handful of people because a lot of us were paying out of pocket. It was before it was covered by insurance. I remember distinctly somebody not being on T when they had chest surgery and that was so unusual. And it really challenged some of the notions that I had about how the path should be.

Kai: And it's really interesting. So I thought that was great. And the other thing that, aside from the fact that he's just lovely, the way his thoughtfulness, it comes out, his sensitivity about what it's going to mean, how, the way that I speak to this woman who , doesn't know a trans person or is interested in me, that's going [01:00:00] to, the way that I do it, I want to do it right for the people who come after me.

Jackal: Yeah. Nice.

Kai: That was beautiful because it's, it's illustrative of how he exists and how he shares space with other people. Yeah,

Jackal: Black male role models that he had in this life through his uncles. And what that did for him, it speaks to what you're talking about too, about how he is a very sensitive, thoughtful person, when he's entering the lesbian spaces and how he wants to be honoring of others and in other spaces and his, like, acknowledging his own identity.

Jackal: And I just really appreciated all of that. And, you know, his giving back sense of community, like it's so funny. He [01:01:00] reminds me of you a lot. Like, you're not on the down low anymore, but you lived a very stealth identity and then you're very shy and then you wanted to do this podcast and kind of like be all out there.

Jackal: And just giving back to the community, like the service that he's offering. And I liked how you phrased it in the interview. You're like, you know, what's it giving to you? What's it giving to your community? What's it giving to our community? Because I think it's very specific, right? Like he is an individual. He's representing a trans men of color community, which is. Part of our larger trans community, trans male community, transgender community, you know? And I think that that's, beautiful and thoughtful.

Kai: If you haven't listened to his podcast, you should really listen to his podcast, everyone. Because. He is a great storyteller, and Shawn shares about his own experience, coming into himself and talks a lot more in depth about his role models. And his guests are extremely articulate. They talk about masculinity, listen to his podcast. The [01:02:00] one last thing I will say is he highlighted the concept of being stealth and how it can provide safety and isolation at the same time.

Jackal: Amazing. Yes. Yes

Kai: and also just the intersectionality of being a black man in this world and being a trans man that's of color in this world. And the safety is such a huge issue for all trans and gender nonconforming folks. And then when you are a queer and a trans man of color, it just brings it to a different level I think our experience of wanting to provide support to our brothers of color.

Kai: It's something that I really think as a duo, we want to do more of, and I so appreciate him being forthcoming about that experience. And, so much of what he said resonated with me about not being able to really fully comprehend how it will be in the world. Once you transition [01:03:00] and that day to day that he described of being hyper aware of circumstances and who's crossing the street or who's sizing you up in some kind of way or, while he's just living his life as Shawn, and I, I relate to that too because I am a pretty read as queer and I'm small and there are people who are unsafe, you know?

Jackal: I want to reflect that because one of the things that I noticed in his interview is how much I related to parts of his story and also how much I kind of related. To your story, because, you know, knowing you as I do, being shy, or that sense of living in isolation, but needing that isolation due to safety, and like, how that impacts you, and things like that, like, microaggressions for, the trans community, there's so many things that are important.

Jackal: Um, experiences that we can say transcend other identities, racial identities, and then there were things that were very, very specific to [01:04:00] his experience as a black person and as black men or as a black lesbian. And I really I love that. I love that. There's like, it's not the, we're just these two separate communities that like have nothing in common.

Jackal: No, like we are one community. Our stories are like very similar and our experiences are very, our, our peoplehood is very, very similar. And then his nuances in his particular identity, which we all have, you know? I really, really appreciated his story. I wish him the best.

Kai: yeah, me too. You're highlighting an awareness of our privilege as having white skin through this world. I think that this podcast again highlighted the differences and also the common commonalities

Jackal: commonalities.

Kai: Yeah. So it's really beautiful. I'm glad he came on the show.

Kai: I am thrilled that he's growing his podcast that he has support and I think he is on his way. He is going places and check out his [01:05:00] podcast and Shawn, thank you for being on the show.

Kai: We love your brother.

Jackal: Love you

Jackal: Now it's time for transponder. Today's trans joy segment is a shout out to Equality Ohio, and they have an Elevate hashtag trans joy campaign Equality Ohio says, join us in celebrating and supporting transgender and non-binary Ohioan by submitting your note of support, love, and affirmation. Inspired by the incredible work of Transgender Law Center, TLC, and their project, Hashtag Love Letters to Trans People, the Notes for Hashtag Trans Joy campaign has become Equality Ohio's longest running and most engaged initiative.

Jackal: If you would like to participate, they say you can submit your note, share your love, support, and affirmation message for transgender and non binary Ohians. Your words have the [01:06:00] power to uplift and inspire. Go to equalityohio. org slash trans joy to participate. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact Kira at our Instagram page at trans masculine podcast.

Jackal: We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our who share their insight. Expertise and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today. Jekyll. Good job to you. for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before.

Jackal: the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority. In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting [01:07:00] their gender non conforming kids.

Jackal: Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community.

Jackal: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. As we enter season four, we are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot.

Jackal: So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside entity. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we [01:08:00] would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know your feedback and support are essential to our show's success.

Jackal: podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. You can find us on Instagram, Transmaskingpodcast, on X, formerly Twitter. At podcast stealth on youtube stealth the trans masculine podcast and be sure to check out our website Transmasculinepodcast. com Thank you for joining us until next time You