Christian

Christian Gilbert is a 40 year old trans man who socially transitioned in the late '90s and medically transitioned in 2007. Post transition, Christian graduated college and entered the healthcare administration workforce where he dedicated his career to serving vulnerable populations by focusing on access to healthcare, quality improvement, business development, and health outcomes. 

After living and working stealth for nearly a decade in the Midwest, Christian moved to the East Coast to live as an out and visible trans man. He currently serves a manager for an organization that provides gender affirming care. Christian is on a mission to increase access to gender affirming care by reducing barriers and improving cultural competency.

In his free time, Christian enjoys reading, hiking, and exploring the East Coast with his partner of 20 years and two dogs.

Christian with River Cohosting

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back. We're excited to be entering our fourth season of Stealth, a trans masculine podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. It's amazing to us that we are still going strong after two years and we'll be featuring our 50th episode this season.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to that, our stories are very often

Kai: overlooked. We want our audience to know that we [00:01:00] ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways. As

Jackal: humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post

Kai: transition. If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to [00:02:00] health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy. We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Kai: Jackal and I want to remind our listeners that we have a new member section. We want to thank those like Emory, Harold, Taylor, Matt, and Alex who have become members. Our member section offers bonus questions, features trans masculine pioneers no longer with us, and hilarious personal stories by our volunteer extraordinaire, Adam.

Kai: Here's another teaser.

Adam: Anyway, the story I wanted to tell today is a pretty familiar one in the land of trans masc ridiculousness, in that it centers on a misplaced dick. So, as I mentioned, part of my whole midlife trans epiphany involved blowing up my 13 year marriage, which in turn meant that I needed to sell my house, which I'm actually still in the process of doing.

Adam: And I have two kids, and my ex and I split custody of them, but point being, kids live here in this [00:03:00] house 50 percent of the time, and as such my house frequently looks like a tornado of glitter and crayons just ripped right through it. So, anytime the broker wants to bring prospective buyers by, I have to do a frenzied power clean of the house to make it look halfway presentable.

Adam: So, the other day, the broker calls and says he has some folks who want to see it, and I do the frenzied power clean and clear everyone out of the house. I come home a couple hours later after the showing, feeling extremely proud of myself for the manic level of cleaning efforts, and then notice that I manage to leave a giant, hyper realistic, quite veiny dick in the sink.

Adam: Yeah, so after having the requisite shame spiral of crippling embarrassment, I text the broker, I believe it was just a string of fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, with like a thousand apologies after, and then I chose that moment to out myself as trans to him, since that seemed like the logical thing to do.

Adam: He being a grown up who is extremely focused on making his commission, replied with something to the effect of lol, all good, I've seen worse, and said that he'd actually noticed it in time to [00:04:00] conceal it before the buyer saw it. Which, of course, made me wonder whether that meant he had picked it up and moved it somewhere and then moved it back?

Adam: Or maybe he just threw a towel over it or something? These are the questions that keep me up at night, wondering whether my broker has touched my dick. We also accept donations, and we want to thank Kida and Evan for their donations. The 4 a month. So go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up now. We don't wanna be gatekeepers, so if you feel like you can't afford $4 a month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com.

Adam: Consider buying a T-shirt while you're on our website. Or if you want to be cool like Adam. We're always looking for volunteers and we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Jackal: BANTER

Jackal: Just a reminder that next week is transgender day of visibility. So go out there and be proud and loud. And I hope everybody has a wonderful day, weekend and life in [00:05:00] general.

Kai: Jackal I want to thank river for standing in as a co-host today. River was a guest in season three. We're happy to have him back. He's a great friend. River is co-hosting with Kai while Jackal was in the field doing important research. Enjoy the show today.

Adam: Today's interview is with Christian Gilbert. Christian is a 40-year-old trans man who socially transitioned in the late nineties and medically transitioned in 2007 post-transition. Christian graduated college and entered the healthcare administration workforce where he dedicated his career to serving vulnerable populations by focusing on access to healthcare, quality improvement, business development, and health outcomes.

Adam: After living and working stealth for nearly a decade in the Midwest, Christian moved to the East Coast to live as an out and visible trans man. Christian is on a mission to increase access to gender affirming care by reducing barriers and improving cultural competency.

Adam: In his free time, Christian enjoys reading, hiking, and exploring the East Coast with his partner of 20 years and two dogs. Christian's Tranniversary is [00:06:00] 2007, the same as Tristan, Jeremy, and Max Gotti, so go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that year. We'll lead in this episode with another musical masterpiece by Ed Varga's band, Eddie and the Heartbeats.

Kai: Welcome to season four of the STP cast today. We're here with Christian and we're happy to announce that we have a co host River, who's with us. River was a guest from a previous season and is a good friend of Jackal and Kai's. Jackal is indisposed at the moment and Jackal will be back next [00:07:00] time. So we're really happy to introduce Christian today to our show.

Kai: We're happy to have you listening. So Christian, welcome to stealth trans masculine podcast.

Christian: How about you introduce yourself?

Christian: Hey, thanks Kai. I really appreciate inviting me to this show after I reached out, my name's Christian. I'm a 40 year old trans man. I currently live in Baltimore, Maryland, but I'm originally from the Midwest and I am excited to be here.

Kai: Christian, how did you learn about transmasculine identities?

Christian: I would say it was, I was probably around 14 years old, so 97, 98 at the time I was identifying as a bull dyke, because that's the language that I knew was a masculine woman who's attracted to women is a bull dyke, so that felt fitting for me at the, at the time, and so, I would say we We got our first home computer, like our family computer at the time, and it came with AOL.

Christian: And so I [00:08:00] naturally, like every other 14 year old at the time of AOL hopped on to just look around the internet and I came across the chat rooms as a lot of folks my age did, and I immediately went to To the lifestyles chat room for lesbians, because that was the world that I was existing in at the time and it was okay.

Christian: Like, it was fine, right? We, we had some conversations. We had some chat, but I continued to explore and I noticed that one of the chat rooms was. It's titled transsexuals, and I had never heard the term before. I didn't know what that was, but I was curious and because it was really housed under the same umbrella as, as the lesbian chat room.

Christian: And so my curiosity got the best of me and I entered that chat room and I just felt like my whole world opened up in that moment. I, I. Was very young. I mean, there was a wide age group within this chat room, but there was a gentleman in particular. His name was Graham. He was a trans man, and he had been [00:09:00] transitioned medically for about a decade.

Christian: And so that was my 1st and that was really my 1st interaction with someone with the trans masculine identity. And he opened up my whole world. You know, it really yeah. introduced me to Harry Benjamin's standards and how he went about transitioning and accessing medical care. He was on the West Coast, so it was, you know, challenging, of course, but certainly more access than I was going to find out I didn't have in the Midwest at the time.

Christian: And so, I just, I spent so much time talking with, with Graham and, and really learning about what it meant to be a trans man. And, and I. Really left those conversations thinking that I was like self diagnosing, right? I was a transsexual man because I had gender identity disorder. He talked to me about all of those nuances in terms of gender identity.

Christian: He also [00:10:00] introduced me to stone butch blues and had mentioned that story. And so, of course, I immediately went out to the library and searched in the card catalog and the library literally had 1 book on the shelf and it happened to be stone butch blues. And so, I, I. Checked that book out and, and read it and felt so compelled to the characters in that book to Leslie Feinberg, the author as well as that, that AOL chat room.

Christian: And so that was really the time period, about 14, when I was introduced to gender identity, even being a concept as well as the trans masculine identity as well.

Kai: Wow. Thank you for sharing that. It's a blast from the past thinking about the chat rooms. River, were you ever in AOL chat rooms?

Christian: Yeah.

River: Yeah.

River: Definitely. That's how I, that was my first foray into it as well. So I could totally relate to that

Christian: Christian yeah. I was so thankful for it right at the time because I had literally never even thought about [00:11:00] being able to live as a male, even though I felt masculine. So it just, it really opened up a whole world for me that I didn't even know existed.

Christian: Yeah. Talk to

Kai: us a little bit more about that. You're 14 years old. You have this thing dial up, right? Internet and maybe DSL is around. I'm not sure. And then you get in the AOL chat rooms. You used the word bull dyke, and at 14 I didn't know what that was, you have some language at age 14 that I did not have, tell us a little bit more about that, what were your conversations like with Graham, what were you asking, do you remember some of the exchanges

Christian: specifically?

Christian: Yeah, so just to kind of speak to the language, I was able to really identify as a bull dyke. I had a friend whose sister had a friend fly in from New York City who was a lesbian, and I was really drawn to her because I think I was probably 12 or 13, and I had never even really thought about lesbians, even, or what that meant, but I was really interested and curious about [00:12:00] her and so I spent some time with her, just, you know, as a friend and conversation as a mentor, and I just, I remember we were at the mall one day and standing at the counter at a bookstore and she looked at me and she was like, you don't know it yet, but you're a lesbian. And I was like, me? No, no, I'm not. And she was like, oh, yeah, you're a bull dyke. You don't know yet, but you will soon. And so I just really learned from her and, and kind of was introduced to that world.

Christian: Of course, I was very young and still. You know, not quite able to wrap my mind around it, but the language was there and it was introduced to me and as I was growing, right, it just became more comfortable and familiar to me until I met Graham and I, my conversations with Graham and really in that chat room altogether, it created a space for me to explore what I thought and how I thought about myself, right?

Christian: They could try on names and I was able to. I felt safe introducing myself as a male in this room and really presenting as, [00:13:00] as, as a guy. And so my questions for Graham were really just about, like, can this really happen? How did you make it happen? Do you have other people like you around you? I was so isolated, you know, and listening to his, his stories about his struggles on the West coast and trying to access care, but really feeling grounded and knowing that that was the direction that he needed to take. And I've really felt that way too. I felt very strongly about like, this is me, no doubt about it.

Christian: I had no questions about that. No reservations. Like I just knew of course this was pre social media and being able to easily send pictures and such. So I never even got to see the guy in person, never met him in person. And then just over time I had lost access to AOL. And so, really lost contact with, with Graham.

Christian: And so I have no idea where he is or, you know, who he is today, but he [00:14:00] had a huge impact on my life in the beginning at helping me see that there were other paths I could take besides just trying to exist in this, this bull dyke lesbian identity.

Kai: Wow. Thank you. And shout out to Graham, wherever you are.

Kai: It's really, it's really great that you were introduced to each other. Sounds like a really important person in your life. That's very relatable. I think for many of us, the AOL chat rooms and the online connection were life saving and I'm really glad you got introduced to each other and that he provided support.

Kai: So to walk us through, you're in the Midwest, you're 14. You're figuring this all out. You're living at home with caregivers of some sort, right? So, how in the heck did things proceed?

Christian: Walk us through it. Sure, so I lived in Kansas is a town outside of Kansas City. It wasn't like a small rural town is probably 130, 000 people.

Christian: So not large, but certainly I'm not not say [00:15:00] it was a city. Right? And so I. I lived with my parents and a younger brother and in conversations with Graham and learning about the Harry Benjamin standards. It was, you know, you just really need to have your parent consent to this. We had had those conversations and, you know, therapy Physicians, doctors, et cetera you just need to have your parents consent.

Christian: My mom was a very supportive person and was open to me being a lesbian, like she was born and raised in California originally, so she was a little more open than, than our counterparts there in Kansas. And so I thought She's gonna be fine with this. And so I, I brought it to her and mentioned it to her and she was like, Absolutely not.

Christian: I can handle you being a lesbian, but this is where I draw the line. And there's no way you would know that this is who you are at your age. So no. So I was like, okay, well. Knowing my mom if I could maybe present her with like a nice neat [00:16:00] package and just have everything together and mom, all I need is your signature.

Christian: And if I made it easy for her, I thought that that she would be on board. So I started calling every therapist and. The in the city I grew up in as well as neighboring cities and every single therapist told me no, they were like, no, not experienced. Can't help you with that. And so then I started calling physicians and I called.

Christian: So many, so many practices, clinic practices, and again, was met with no from every single 1. so there was no way for me to even put something together to present to my mom because everybody was literally like, absolutely not. And so I actually hit a really deep depression because I was so committed to the thought that I needed to transition.

Christian: Like I was committed to that and I had to do it and I felt desperate around that. And so when it was feeling like nobody was there to help me and I, well, what am I going to [00:17:00] do? And so I did, I hit. I had a deep depression. I had a suicide attempt at the time. And after that, I did a stay at I would say a psychiatric inpatient hospital.

Christian: And so I thought, okay, well, I'm having access to psychiatrists and therapists. Maybe this is where I can. Get some help. Not that that was my intention from the beginning, but once I was there, I was kind of starting to see this could be opportunity. And so I mentioned it and again, they were like, Nope, nobody here is experienced in that.

Christian: We, we aren't going to go down that path, but we can certainly help you learn how to exist in your lesbian identity, your womanhood, you know, those types of conversations. And so again, just. Super depressed. And I just ended up. Kind of going through the motions to to get out of there, because I wasn't going to get the help that I needed at the inpatient stay.

Christian: And so I did, I [00:18:00] did all the programs they wanted me to do, and the therapy that that was required, but I wasn't able to to get the help that that I really needed at that time. And so, is devastated, right? And so my depression then just lingers. And so like, what do I do? I guess I'm just going to have to be a lesbian.

Christian: There aren't any other options. All the while, and all the while thinking about Graham on the West Coast and having access. And so then my mind kind of started shifting. You know, to how do I get to the West Coast? I clearly need to get to San Francisco. That's where I'm going to have the opportunity to transition.

Christian: But so far out of reach, right? I'm a teenager. I have no resources at all. And so I really just spent time socially transitioning because I'd had. Lots of conversations with Graham around that, like, how do I live as and present as a male if I'm not able to access these things? And he really taught me a lot about binding.

Christian: And although we didn't have [00:19:00] access to binders at the time, quite like the that's available today I, I started with like duct tape around a white t shirt and that was miserable and I couldn't breathe. And so he had mentioned, well, try an abdominal binder. It's something that. Yeah. Women who deliver babies used to put their organs back in place.

Christian: So I used it. It worked enough, right? And so then I just you know, changed my name at the, at the time to Christian and just started presenting as, as male. But of course, you know, as I got older passing became more difficult, right? Because my voice isn't changing. I'm not. Developing in the way that young men develop.

Christian: And so, it, it just became even more challenging to pass. And so I did kind of just revert back to living as a lesbian really just because it was a lot easier. In a sense I wasn't always trying to. Figure out how to pass on. It was pretty obvious to most people [00:20:00] that I wasn't passing. And so, I was just yeah, really existing in the world again as, as a lesbian, a very, very depressed lesbian.

Christian: I did that for a couple of years, all the while thinking, how am I going to get to the West coast? And as I was getting older and able to work I was. Making I don't know what was minimum wage at the time, like 4 an hour, maybe four and a half dollars an hour. But I had some friends who were certified nursing assistants at a local nursing home, and they were making like nine to 10 an hour, which was double the salary that I was making so my first thought was, that's, that's my ticket. If I can just increase my salary, I can get to the West Coast and I can transition. Lo and behold, nine. 1 an hour isn't enough either to get you to the West Coast, by all means, but what it did for me working as a certified nursing assistant is it introduced me to the medical world, right?

Christian: And so I'm working as a certified nursing [00:21:00] assistant. I'm living as an out lesbian. You know, a stone butch lesbian is what I was calling myself at that time, and I really shifted from bull dyke to stone butch. I think through my experiences in high school and growing up, there was such a negative connotation around the word dyke in the Midwest that just over time, I really shifted to a stone butch lesbian.

Christian: But nonetheless, I was Working as a certified nursing assistant, there was a nurse practitioner who would come in and make rounds on her doctor's patients. And I noticed she was very approachable and interacted with the staff. And so I had just approached her and I was, I just asked her like, Hey, here's my situation.

Christian: This is who I am. This is what I'm trying to accomplish. And I have had no success finding any help. Anywhere with this. And she was like, well, I don't know much about it. And I said, well, do you know anybody that could help me? And she was like, I don't know, but let me look into it and I'll get back to you.

Christian: And so I thought, okay. And it's kind of [00:22:00] got me going again, right? Like now this determination to transition was surfacing. And so then I started calling doctors again, right? Because now I'm 18 years old and maybe my issue is that I was a minor and I can get access. Again, everybody was telling me no.

Christian: The therapists were telling me, no, it was very heartbreaking. But then the next time that nurse practitioner came in, I approached her and asked again, Hey, did, did you learn anything? And she said, you know, nobody is, is able to, to really help with this, but I tell you what, I'm in the process of opening an urgent clinic North of town.

Christian: You know, this was at the time urgent clinics were starting to surface. And she was like, I'll help you get started on testosterone. If you want, just come by to my clinic. Okay. Really can't have you as a patient there. I really can't let anybody know this is what we're doing, but I'll certainly help. And I was familiar with Stroeheckers because of Graham that's, you know, it was a pharmacy in Oregon that provided or testosterone.

Christian: And so I was like, [00:23:00] all I need is a prescription to Stroeheckers and I can get testosterone. I came out to her clinic. It was kind of a, a back door kind of thing. But she had. Sent a prescription to Strohecker. She had gotten the testosterone and gave me my first injection in September of 2007.

Christian: So I'm not exactly standard procedures by all means, but she definitely saved my life in a way that I'm still forever grateful for. And she really continued to write my prescriptions for for several years until I was finally able to access primary care.

Christian: Wow.

Kai: I'm really glad you're here. I'm glad you were able to stick through it and find creative ways to get around the systemic barriers that were in place and that continue to be in place.

Kai: And I'm really touched by your story, Christian, and again, so thankful that you had some support and you were able to find people to connect with. And you're right, it's not a traditional path, but I think sometimes We find ways [00:24:00] when we need to. So thank you for sharing that.

Kai: I, I know that you mentioned some things related to your social standing. How do you think your social standing at the time impacted your ability to transition?

Christian: Sure, so when I think about that question, my, my 1st thought goes to having the privilege of having a family computer and access to a well, right?

Christian: That was a fortunate thing for me at the time as well as the ability to afford going to, you know, getting certified as a nursing assistant and being able to access that training and getting gainful employment. So I really feel like that those pieces in particular gave me a platform to to be able to move forward with transitioning.

Christian: I would have never met that nurse practitioner, right? If I wouldn't have had the opportunity to to to become a certified nursing assistant. So it was really that career that helped me.

Kai: Thank you, Christian.

River: I just think about how it is for so many people [00:25:00] that don't have access to care and the impact that had on you to not have access at that time.

River: And so thank you for sharing your vulnerable story. Also, I think about a nurse stepping forward or a doctor stepping forward to be brave and help us out and I think a lot of us have stories of somebody who is willing to help us out in a time when nobody else would and so I just was impacted by that part of your story.

River: What are some things that as you sort of moved from your social transition to your Medical transition. What were some things that you were told about how to live your life as a trans man from those

Kai: around you?

Christian: Yeah, so I would say that I was incredibly isolated.

Christian: So there, there wasn't necessarily a community. I had never met a A trans man outside of Graham on AOL and a few other trans men that were a part of this, this chat room. So in terms of community around me in Kansas, there really wasn't any guidance on. [00:26:00] Or thought on how to be trans. I will say in the AOL chat room world, where I did have some community, although limited, it didn't really feel like there was like this set direction on here's how you need to live as being trans or exist as a trans person.

Christian: But there was just this like common goal, I think I would say to pass and blend in. And so, you know, I think about today where. There's the gender expansive population that now has a space to exist. That just really wasn't there for, for me back then. I would say that I am definitely a masculine trans man, and so it's okay that that space wasn't available for me, but nonetheless, I really think that there was this ultimate goal, right, that you achieved with transitioning, and really it's just blending in.

River: Your not having access to the conversations that other people are having around you about maybe [00:27:00] like, cause I think about sometimes when people would like help you find access to resources and other trans men showing you how things go. And you had your friend on the chat room, but you didn't have a lot of other folks around you and you experienced a lot of isolation.

River: I'm wondering What does stealth

Christian: mean to you? Sure. So I think that my definition or perspective around stealth has really changed over time based on where I'm at in life, I would say, early on in my transition when I was younger to think a little bit about still learning about trans masculine identities, right?

Christian: I had read Stone Butch Blues. I had chatted with trans men online, but then about a year into that conversation, the Boys Don't Cry movie came out. And I know that this movie has been referenced a few times on the show. But for me, it was a very important milestone for me because When I watched the film, [00:28:00] I just remember bawling, not even knowing how it ended, but because for the first time I was actually visually seeing someone trying to navigate through life like me, and then it ended horribly, and for me, stealth at that moment was around safety.

Christian: Like, my, my first thought, because Brandon, Tina, lost his life an hour and 20 minutes from my house. And so it was very close and very real. And so stealth for me was, this is why we have this ultimate goal of passing, right? It's all around safety. It could be happiness or whatnot, but really it was safety.

Christian: But then I started transitioning and trying to achieve this goal of passing and blending in. So stealth evolved a little bit. It was still around safety, but it was also around that happiness piece I mentioned and existing as a man in society and the world's Perspective of me as they looked at me was male and interacted with me was male.

Christian: And so [00:29:00] for me, that, that was what stealth meant. Fast forward a few years later, after college, starting my career, stealth again, was still around safety and happiness and existing as a man, but it became even more so, or I became even more so focused on really blending in like stealth, meaning,, all of these traits I have left over from being socialized as a woman won't be noticed or observed.

Christian: And so, stealth for me was like silencing all of that for a while. 10 years later now that I'm, you know, I, I currently work in gender affirming healthcare. And so I, I'm in a position to be out and as I want. And so for me, now, stealth is just the ability to self disclose as, as I need to, as I want to, whether it's for safety, happiness work.

Christian: So yeah, stealth has [00:30:00] evolved for me over time based on my journey.

River: Thank you for sharing that Christian. It was so well articulated to talk about how it kind of went from safety to the ability to disclose as you feel like you needed to. Can you talk a little bit more about sort of, what it's meant for you personally?

River: How the role of disclosure and you're in your own life over time. I know you described now that you're in a place where and disclose you feel like safe disclosing.

River: But can you talk a little bit about how that has kind of

Kai: shifted

Christian: over time for you? Yeah, early in my transition, I was just so excited about it finally being there that I just wanted to scream from the rooftops that I was trans and I was transitioning and becoming who I am so self disclosure was pretty loud for me at that time. And same within college, I felt like my undergraduate Years provided a platform for me to advocate and really lean [00:31:00] into, to learning more about myself as an individual and as a trans man, and I self disclosed often, I earned a bachelor's degree in history with a minor in women's and gender studies. I was involved in a lot of discussions around gender identity. And so I really enjoyed. disclosing my, my journey in college in particular, because I'm in an environment of learners and people are interested in learning. And over time, I've learned the more exposure people have to trans and gender expansive people, the, the more open that they tend to be.

Christian: So I was, Very self disclosing then I would say when I graduated college and entered into the professional world, I noticed that people aren't necessarily learners and aren't necessarily interested. And the more I was becoming invested in my career and in the professional world I became even more [00:32:00] stealth for a couple of reasons.

Christian: Some of it was because it's just not the space, right? Like, me being trans has nothing to do with the work that I'm doing at hand, or who I am either, and so I became incredibly stealth within my profession. The other piece is I was scared of people finding out, and how is that going to affect my career?

Christian: I was so invested in it, and I was working so hard, and I had goals that I wanted to reach, and I was just incredibly fearful that if anyone, right, in small town Kansas is going to, to find out I could lose my job, I could be blacklisted. So that fear, I think, drove my decision to be stealth really more than, Then anything, I was working as a nursing home administrator.

Christian: So I had went into healthcare administration and graduate school, and I'd been a certified nursing assistant. Nursing homes just felt like home for me. I'd been in [00:33:00] them for about a decade at that point. And so we all know healthcare systems tend to be conservative. And Usually operated by religious organizations and nursing homes are definitely a part of that.

Christian: So I was working for conservative religious health care organizations, which also drove my fear because I knew that if I was disclosed, I would not have my job. I was the leader of of nursing home and the face and the voice. And so I just stealth for me then became it was a way of life. I had to be incredibly stealth.

Christian: And so there was no self disclosure, even in moments when I felt like I was with somebody who maybe would be open. I just I couldn't. I was so fearful that if I did, yeah. Self disclose, it wouldn't end well. So it was incredibly isolating I think too, because I [00:34:00] wasn't able to lean into allies when I thought I had allies right next to me.

Christian: So self disclosure is certainly also evolved with me over time.

Kai: Your comments about Boys Don't Cry and that movie and the chat rooms and just how important it is to have support. That sense of isolation that you're feeling, and describing and that sense of fear for your own professional and personal safety really hit home for me.

Kai: Deep. I, when, when Boys Don't Cry came out, many of us, that was the first story we heard was Brandon Tina being murdered, and assaulted, and it was just worst possible way to go out, and I, I just think that shapes so much of how we were brought up and it was very fearful.

Kai: It's really hard to live in fear for your personal safety. Not only being socialized as female growing up, you know, have this concern about being assaulted and, there's sexism, there's misogyny, there's all the things it's like now we transition and there's a story that is like [00:35:00] shaping part of how we experience things.

Kai: And I think the climate of fear is really debilitating for us sometimes. And so the thing that I find liberating about your story, Christian, is that you've found ways. Even in the midst of feeling extreme depression and isolation that you found your path and you found support and you've developed a career and you've managed within those systems that were really constricting.

Kai: So that's just really, really wonderful. And here you are, and we're going to use post transition. We're talking about current day. As you've evolved, talk to us about some of the milestones that you've experienced in your life, post transition, whatever that means to you.

Christian: Sure, so milestones say, you know, right off the bat, like I was, my thought goes to really my education and my profession. I would say that for a long time when I was younger, I didn't envision myself ever really being an adult and living that long because I was so depressed and couldn't transition. And [00:36:00] so I had no concept of really goal setting for the future and for my life.

Christian: And I would say when I was younger and not able to access care, I struggled with addiction and just really poor decisions, just trying to navigate life and exist. I dropped out of high school, right? And, and earned my GED. And so I feel like to be able to overcome all of the depression and the self hate and the self sabotage and start transitioning, which, which just really amped up my drive and determination because I felt like for the first time in my life, I actually wanted to goal set for the future and I wanted to have a life for myself.

Christian: And. I was starting to understand that I could be a husband someday. I could be a father if I wanted to and, and just really have that life. And so I just took off with it and went to college and then to my bachelor's degree and [00:37:00] went on to earn my master's degree and, and find myself in a career that I could really build a life with and so for me, I would say those are the biggest milestones. Post transition is really just getting my life together. I guess if you want to say it and those terms. I also, I don't necessarily consider, you know, people a milestone, right?

Christian: But I've been with my Wife for it'll be 20 years this year. So we were together for a little over three years as a lesbian couple before I transitioned. And so for me, also a milestone would be her and I being able to really navigate that together and work through it and figure out what our life was going to look like you know, she was very set and her identity, right.

Christian: As, as a lesbian woman. Being able to overcome that as well and work through that, I think, is [00:38:00] also a milestone that is important to me.

River: Thank you, Christian. I was really struck by your comment about not being able to invade growing up into an adult. I've heard that from so many trans folks and I experienced that myself.

River: You talked a little bit about some of your milestones and things like that. Bring us into sort of present day and, and tell us a little bit about what your life is like

Christian: currently. Sure, I worked as a nursing home administrator for almost a decade. It was a great profession. It's a great field to go into. There's a lot of work in that area related to LGBTQ health care with aging. And so, just to share a story I remember I was with marketing and admissions rotation at the time, and we had went to the hospital to assess. Perspective person to, to move into the nursing home. And it was very clear that this gentleman was a gay man [00:39:00] and his partner was there with him and our marketer was interacting with the patient and their assessment and kept saying things like, Oh, you'll love the nurses when they move in. They're cute ladies. And I was just remember standing there like, okay, clearly this is a gay man. Why are we talking about nurses? But nonetheless they carried on with their assessment. And then when we left and I got in the car, I, I just mentioned to the marketer, , you realize he was a gay man, right?

Christian: And she's like, yeah, but I don't think that that's even necessary to mention or worth navigating and okay, fine. So we go back to the nursing home to determine whether he's going to be admitted. And the nursing home administrator said, no, just right out of the gate. And when the marketer disclosed that he was a gay man.

Christian: And so when I was one on one with the administrator, cause we often did that in that learner role. I just said, why did you deny his admission when he was financially able to move in and [00:40:00] his health acuity was fine. And she looked at me and said I'm not going to subject our residents to men kissing in the hallway and holding hands.

Christian: And I was just so taken aback in that moment. Of course, I hadn't self disclosed. Nobody knew it, in this facility that I was trans. But in that moment, my thought was, oh my gosh, what are we going to do when we need care? If this is, if this is the response. And so I really determined. In that moment that my future was going to be at some point opening, operating, working with nursing home organizations to provide LGBTQ focused care.

Christian: But I can't do that working at a nursing home in Kansas, right? But I spent 9 and a half years, really building out my repertoire to be able to to have a future in that. But to get there, right? I needed to learn a little more around programmatic building and things like that. And so this [00:41:00] position that I'm currently working in and serving that. moved me from Kansas to Transgender and Gender Expansive Health. I'm the senior program manager , so I manage the operations and I'm helping build the program, and I really felt like this opportunity would be Perfect a perfect springboard for me to be able to work towards my goals of working with nursing homes and aging organizations to provide gender affirming care.

Christian: So, a very big change right from conservative religious nursing home organizations to an academic institution, healthcare setting, where I get to not only serve my community, but I get to live my authentic self in a way that I haven't been able to do in a very, very long time. It's a great position and I love it.

Christian: And the East Coast has been refreshing. Maryland is recently became a sanctuary state [00:42:00] for. Not only transgender and gender expansive people, but also providers who serve us. And so that in itself has been refreshing. So yes, living a life of my authentic self in a way that I haven't in a long time is what my today looks like.

Christian: That's beautiful. And

Kai: Throughout your interview today, I've just been thinking about the experience of living a low to non disclosing life. And that sense of concern about personal safety and what that felt like living that way and then all of the opportunities that come up like a homophobic remark or a policy or somebody being denied care or some slur in some way coming up or, or even something that might invite conversation, all those decisions we're faced with. And that experience of not knowing and not feeling safe. Can you talk to us about what has it been like for you?

Kai: It sounds like you're in this free place now, talk to us a little bit about that transition.

Christian: Sure. So living stealth and working stealth was incredibly hard for some of the, [00:43:00] the things you mentioned and having to be involved in conversations that, that, and listening and observing that I wouldn't necessarily choose to to be a part of I feel like I was in a position as a nursing home administrator over my facility to be able to direct the culture, but you still can't deny that there's culture from the environment. We live and grow up and in other words, Kansas. And so, there were lots of anti LGBTQ conversations, especially around staff, like LGBTQ people exist, even in, in Kansas. And as time went on, they became more and more visible. And so, even though we were in smaller towns, there were still LGBTQ staff coming into work. And it was hard for me to field staff complaints about their colleagues that I knew were driven [00:44:00] from phobia, right?

Christian: I did my best to advocate and steer and support LGBTQ staff as I could. And I know that that made it a little easier for me having the ability to be able to do that. I had three trans people work at my facilities as I was an administrator over the course of nine and a half years and they had a really hard time working with their colleagues and their counterparts because of the phobia.

Christian: And I just spent a lot of time redirecting that behavior and. I wanted to self disclose so many times to those trans staff, just so they knew that they had an ally and a partner, but I couldn't. Like, the fear still drove me not to, but I did things like making sure the trans masculine staff had access to the men's polo shirts for their uniform, and making sure that we used affirmed names on their name tags, and so I did what I could in that way for myself in terms [00:45:00] of You know, the team above me, right?

Christian: That was really challenging because I. I spent a lot of time with them, and as I had mentioned before, there's just a lot left over in me from being socially raised as, as a female, that I had to spend a lot of time really thinking before I spoke, and sometimes I would say things or do things that I didn't even think I needed to think about not doing, and I would just get looks from my supervisor and my colleagues, like, okay, you know, dudes, don't have hair appointments.

Christian: Like, why are you using language like that? Or it was just a lot of that. My boss was always like, Hey, let's go hit up the bathroom before we hit the road after conferences. And I'd be like, Oh, well, I'm good. I went just a little bit ago. I got to hit the road and so I had to do a lot of this like navigating around what comes so naturally to those who are their gender identity is aligned with [00:46:00] the sex that they're assigned at birth, right?

Christian: And so there was just a lot of struggle and a lot of grapple with, with that piece. It's just, and it made me kind of quiet, and I'm not a quiet person. I have a personality and, but it really did put me in a, in a place of just really silencing myself because I was afraid I would say the wrong thing. And that I didn't realize until I am now living in a life that I can self disclose and be my authentic self.

Christian: How traumatic that actually was for me, you know, and that I actually probably have some PTSD from it I changed my personality in a way that I wouldn't have wanted it to and that's, that's hard for me to accept. And so I'm now in this space, I've been in this position for about 15 months, and I'm learning how to find myself again, and it's interesting because the whole goal in the beginning [00:47:00] of my transition was to blend in, right?

Christian: And to, to exist as a man, and then. After doing that for so long, I realized that me being trans is such a huge part of my identity and my story and who I am, and I don't want to have to silence that. So although I didn't need the space to be gender expansive, right, it's important to have the space to, to just be who you are, no matter what your, your identity is.

Christian: And so, I'm just so thankful to be in a space now where I can Explore all that. And that was really part of what drove me to reach out to you guys for the podcast was I hadn't told my story or shared my story in a very long time. And as I was listening to to your podcast, you know, I just started thinking, wow, I am one part of a generation of trans men that I didn't even know existed.

Christian: But it's also really making me [00:48:00] think about My identity through a new lens because of how much the trans community has evolved since I transitioned all those years ago. So yeah, to answer your question, to the transition into living an authentic life has been really good, but it's a lot harder than I expected because I didn't realize how silenced I had silenced myself living stealth.

Christian: Wow.

River: That's. That's amazing. as you're talking, I'm thinking about this term that some researchers had sort of hit on called minority stress. And that's the idea of like you're navigating all of your normal developmental milestones like career and life, whatever, but also you're having to make these incredible accommodations to try to make sure you don't talk about this too much over here and don't Affiliate too much with the trans people in the workplace because then they might see that you're one of them, but wanting to support them and all these things that cis people don't have to navigate so you [00:49:00] described that really, really well.

Kai: One question I have for you

River: is just in thinking about all these things that have happened throughout your life. What, what are a couple of things that you feel most proud of?

Christian: I feel so proud of myself in general just for being persistent, and, and not just accepting that I'm just subject to living as a lesbian woman for the rest of my life, and The isolation and not having in person community, not having anything that I could remotely tap into to help propel me forward other than some discussion and conversation with people online.

Christian: I'm just, just being persistent and making sure that, I kept at it and I kept trying. Because eventually it succeeded. And so honestly, I'm just proud that I was able to transition and make that happen for myself. Great.

River: Thanks so much, [00:50:00] Christian. You touched on this a little bit earlier when you were talking about sort of growing old and aging issues and things like that. But I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what kind of support that you have now and what do you think you'll need as you age in terms of support?

Christian: Yeah, aging happens to all of us, right? There's no getting around it, but our healthcare system is so binary, right? It's men's health and women's health, and really, where is the space for, for us when it comes to healthcare?

Christian: And so, I'm very fortunate there is access to health care and there's access to services , it's competent care that I'm able to receive. And so that support I think is incredibly important. I'm not as young and Invincible as I once was. And so I think continuing to have that access to primary care is is going to be incredibly important.

Christian: But it's also important to make sure that comprehensive [00:51:00] services are available, including, end of life aging. What does that look like? And who's going to take care of us and make sure that we receive dignified care, you know, The end of our life, because our bodies are different, right? Our experiences are different, and we have to Navigate this binary health care system and seeking that dignified care.

Christian: I really just hope that health care can just improve their competence around gender affirming care. Especially for those who have been on 50 years and the impact of, of that and what is that going to look like? And it's really just competent health care is the support that I think we all need in terms of of aging agreed and you're doing a

Kai: nice job of highlighting so many of the needs that people have affirming care, access to healthcare, [00:52:00] access to community support, livable wage, all the things that you're bringing up today are so key for people. And then you're right. Our bodies are really different. And the guests who have appeared, who are aging and who are considering the next steps, our older guests in their seventies and eighties they've talked about just wanting to be treated with dignity, as you're describing, and having our bodies be respected, should we be incapacitated in some way, and you're first hand witness to some of the discrimination that can happen, and maltreatment that can happen, and I really appreciate you showing that, and I also hear a lot of hopefulness coming from you, like, you're shedding something as you come to terms with how this has impacted you throughout your, your life, and your coming of age, and, growing into who Christian is as a man, trans man, here you are, right?

Kai: And I do sense that sense of hopefulness. I think that's wonderful. And I really want to thank you again for reaching out to us and sharing your story. And now here we are, paying it forward. What would you say to the Newer [00:53:00] transitioning or people, those trans masc or trans men who are considering transition no matter what their ages, what would you say to those people?

Christian: Yeah, so I would say especially for transgender and gender expansive people who live in rural or more conservative areas to seek out a nurse practitioner. Find those nurse practitioners because they are going to be the ones to take care of us and to help us and they're more accessible. And so I would certainly encourage people to, to find their nurse practitioners.

Christian: I would also say that there's been an, an evolution within the trans community, and there's this population of I use the words gender expansive, the non binary gender queer community. What's beautiful about this evolution is that there's a space for everyone to to really explore who they are and explore them themselves.[00:54:00]

Christian: And I just want the younger community. And the whole community to just remember that, right? I see a lot on a lot of discussions on social media around toxic masculinity. And you know, some trans men are going to be masculine. And I don't think that anybody has the right to determine what someone's masculinity should look like same with their gender identity.

Christian: And so I just want to remind everyone to just remember to create a space for everyone. Even if it looks different from, from you. We need to create that space for, for our trans community, our, our trans family and, and support them. And not put parameters around what being transgender gender expansive looks like.

Christian: Just create that space and support. Thank you.

Kai: You know, one of the things [00:55:00] that this is making me think about is how there weren't a whole lot of paths and options presented to me , it was. As you described, these are the steps that you take, or even though people may not explicitly say it, the question might be, when are you going to get on T, are you having chest surgery back in the day, right?

Kai: And to me, I find it so incredibly freeing as you're describing this, that there is a lot more room within the communities to explore who you are, and it doesn't have to be a prescribed path. Because I found that created this huge sense of urgency for me that I had to do these things, nobody told it told me that, but I really like that it's freeing, it sounds a lot more freeing.

Kai: So I really appreciate you saying that. Is there something Christian that we didn't ask that you think we should have something else you'd like to say before we wrap up this part of

Christian: our interview. No, I don't think so. I think that the flow of the questions that you guys ask is great at helping paint a [00:56:00] picture. So, as I've listened to the podcast, I've never had a thought like, why don't they ask this or why aren't we discussing that?

Christian: So no, I feel like you guys do a great job with your questions.

Kai: Thank you so much for being a part of our show. Is there anything that you'd like to promote? Any sort of social media content or anything else that you'd like to promote?

Christian: I don't really have social media or I haven't written any books or anything like that but I certainly I sent you the website for Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender and Gender Expansive Health just to share with the community because we're doing a lot of great work around creating comprehensive services and I just want anyone to be able to, to access these services that have the ability and so, I would certainly, I'd like to share, share that website.

Christian: Trans health, gender affirming care has always seemed to be so highly specialized and, and we're working towards it just being a part of our care, right? It's just basic health [00:57:00] care. Gender affirming care is just one piece to the rest of the care that I need. So that's, that's a big focus for us.

Christian: Right on.

Kai: And thank you again, Christian, for sharing your story. We're going to wrap up this part of the interview and we really want to thank you for being a part of our show.

Christian: Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you for providing this platform for, for some of us older folks to revisit something that seems so long ago. I, I, I appreciate that. That's certainly challenged me in a way that, that I, I wasn't expecting or realized that I needed.

Kai: REFLECTIONS

Kai: River, what do you think of our interview with Christian? Yeah, it

River: was amazing. This is my first time doing this podcast. That's outside of being a guest. And what was interesting to me was all of the common themes with Christian and my own story about the Stone Butch Blues book and moving from the Midwest to try to get access and the chat [00:58:00] rooms and the movie Boys Don't Cry and stuff like that.

River: And I'm wondering if this is common to a lot of folks that are on the podcast. I haven't listened to a lot of the stories. I've listened to a number of them, but you probably have that perspective more

Kai: than I do. Well, uh, you're forgiven for not listening to more episodes. I can't hear all of them. I know.

Kai: You're, you're exactly right. This is a very common thread and most of us have somehow been impacted by boys don't cry for sure. And also the book Stone Butch Blues by Les Feinberg. Were you at the Seattle screening of boys don't cry. That was at. I think it was the Egyptian theater.

Kai: Was it the Egyptian or the Harvard? I can't remember. I

River: was. Wasn't I with you

Kai: at that? That's what I thought. I thought. It's just so long ago. And then they had Kimberly Pierce was talking afterwards. That was intense.

River: Yeah, it was. I was thinking of When Christian was talking about how incredibly important it was to, even though it's a terribly [00:59:00] tragic story, to, to feel like you see like a reflection of yourself on the screen and how important that was to all of us.

River: And, um, I just heard that in his story and I was like, wow, I didn't realize that was a common experience until I heard him say that on a podcast. And then I thought, wow, I wonder how many, I mean, you and I have talked about it, but I wonder how many other guys or trans masculine folks have felt that way too.

Kai: Yeah. And I think you're right. It was terribly suspenseful horror filled story, but that, that was the representation we had aside from some documentaries coming out, which were really important at the time. And that was among them.

Kai: That was when You Don't Know, Dick" came out there were other documentaries out, there was Max . That was such an incredible time, but the fact that Christian lived an hour and a half from where it happened, where he lived, that just, oof, that was bone chilling.

River: Yeah, exactly. I felt that in the pit of my stomach because that was so impactful to me being [01:00:00] so far away But also being from the Midwest and being from a neighboring state Yeah, that hit home differently for me because I I know what that world is like

Kai: yeah, it's almost as if he's having this experience of self discovery as he's Leaving behind the Midwest, literally geographically moving and moving on to something else. And now he's sounds like he's immersed in the community and he's. Very much finding his way.

Kai: He described so well how the system in the United States to speak for the U S is not designed to provide care to everyone. right? It's not accessible. And then if you try to go seek care that's not within the confines of the current system and you're told no repeatedly or hospitalized or, you're trying to live authentically, how that can really lead to things like depression and suicidal thoughts and things like that.

Kai: That part of his story was so [01:01:00] Detailed and it was such a profound experience for him, I came away with this overall sense of hopefulness from him because even in spite of that, , maybe because of that in part, , he's sort of relearning things.

Kai: He's recognizing that shaped so much of who he is as a person. And now he's really like, that doesn't have to define who he is.

River: Yeah, or rediscovering yourself after that after feeling what he described as feeling silenced. I'm talking a lot about how he really is not a quiet person, but he felt like really changed like his way of being in the world and how profound.

River: And then, like you said, just kind of finding his way back to himself through various twists and turns, and mainly also by. Resilience and resistance to really keep going.

Kai: That's one of the things that we have to decide in the moment, often, how do we respond if somebody makes a homophobic remark, or if [01:02:00] somebody says something that's transphobic or talks about those people or casually dropped something or even says something affirming.

Kai: , how many opportunities we have that we're faced with we're just contending with that all the time, If you say something to defend a gay man who's seeking care in your facility and say why are you denying him care and you care too passionately about it or you pay too much attention to the trans employee, they're gonna somehow clock you or that will, or they will come after you, and it's such a wild thing, it's a constant dance we do about like how much or how little to disclose.

River: Yeah and that's kind of where I was going with a conversation around what researchers term minority stress in sort of having to do those mental gymnastics all the time, in a way that like, I sometimes don't even realize it until I hear someone like Christian tell his story.

River: And I think, oh my gosh, all of those little decisions [01:03:00] and ways that you have to you. Qualify and change and alter and, or consider altering or changing how you would normally respond to things and how mentally exhausting that can really be sometimes, but it's just sort of the way that we have to do things sometimes.

Kai: I agree. I feel very privileged to live in a place and live in an environment and have a job and be able to support myself and all those things and not fret about that in the same way that I used to, you know, like I'm definitely not low disclosing and I'm not stealth, and I just think that tension that he describes that you're describing so well, it can just take so much energy and at the same time it can make me feel somewhat relieved that no one will question my gender if I'm out in the world, like I'm stopping at a rest stop, nobody's going to think twice, I'd more likely to get gay bashed than anything. Can I ask you a personal question about your experience of that?

Kai: Yeah. This tension that you're describing , How did you [01:04:00] describe it micro micro

Kai: minority stress

Kai: minority stress? Yeah, pardon me. What's that like for you as you've moved on in your own career?

River: That kind of gets me back to what Christian said, too, about how disclosure meant safety, to be able to know that you're not going to get harmed, to me, when I think of safety, I think physical safety, but I also think emotional and psychological safety, because if you come into a place of work that's really, um, an anti trans, type of vibe or a hostile vibe, then if you disclose, you might not get beat up, but you're going to be shunned or excluded .

River: I think about that because I worked in a K 12 system for a while. And before I went into that K 12 system, I was really pretty out and about and lived in a really affirming area or an urban area. And then when I was working in a school, I didn't feel safe to disclose and I felt like for me the disclosure meant safety as well.

River: I [01:05:00] felt, I could be physically harmed by some maybe potential families that were not okay with it. And then also just psychologically and also I felt an incredible sense of isolation around that. I also related to part of his story about Having like other trans people in your workplace but not being able to say anything as I had to sit across from kids that were talking about how isolating it was for them and thinking to myself, Oh my gosh, I'm right here, and I can't disclose I can't, we can't find each other fully and feeling sort of helpless, and the role that that played and then now being out.

River: a lot more publicly and how, what a relief that felt, but also feeling like having to come out to myself and learn how to be out in the world again and not describe trans people as those people because that's what I did to protect myself, which felt really, really gross,

Kai: thank you. [01:06:00] Yeah. It's deep.

Kai: I mean, it's, it's deep. All the moments where we have options to make connection with someone or to dodge a question or to shift us, maybe we played this sport and in college and work or high school and we're going to change it to a quote unquote gender conforming sport like football versus volleyball at the time, all these different decisions but making that personal connection with particularly youth, you're so passionate about working with youth and providing really affirming care and then having the kids sit across from you and there's a wall up because you can't possibly, the stakes are too high for you to reach across. that that's a tension that I feel it

River: well and having to make the impossible choice right of if I, if I come out to them that might be really helpful and great and affirming and also there's visibility right.

River: But if I do come out to them, then they are seen as affiliating with me, which also might affect [01:07:00] their safety. And so feeling like there isn't really a good choice to make and sort of the tension behind trying to figure out the best way through from two crappy choices.

Kai: Yeah, exactly. As we continue to live in this world, we're going to be faced with these choices.

Kai: I thought overall. Christian is a good hearted person who really wants the best for us and wants the best for others, as they pursue something as fundamental as healthcare, and as we age and we need to access support and maybe assisted living , his hope is that we will be treated with respect and dignity as anyone would, would hope for, and that there will be services that are Available to us and I'm 100 percent with that and I thank the people who are fighting the fight to help us maintain and obtain rights

River: I felt really hopeful to when I, especially when I think of.

River: Our own community members working on the issue. I think what he, he referred to it as dignified care, and that's something that I worry about as a trans person, who's [01:08:00] going to take care of me, especially as somebody that doesn't have children. It's going to take care of me in a way that is respectful of my body and my experiences.

River: And, uh, he really spoke to that well, and I feel so hopeful thinking that's people like him are, are on the job and maybe a little bit younger than me, who can. Help pave the way for what might become my care, my long term

Kai: care. That's just one of the reasons I hang out with you, because the deal is I go first.

Kai: You being the younger statesman.

River: Who am I going to get?

Kai: We'll have to work that out, but I definitely care. And lastly, really was intrigued and I wanted to ask a lot more and I did not about his relationship.

Kai: He was with his partner who they were both in the world seen as lesbians. And then they weathered that transition and what that transition must've been like for both of them as a couple and also for his partner. It could have been a whole nother show and also it debunks this message that many of us have received and that the world [01:09:00] says is that we're not lovable and that we can't maintain relationships if that's something we want to do, so I thought that was very noteworthy.

Kai: Yeah,

River: and I can imagine that's, uh, like maybe a little bit closer to what your experiences might have been early on as having come out early in your life as a lesbian or queer woman and, imagining what that would be like if, with one partner transition.

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. And I know, I mean, you, you didn't come from the queer community.

Kai: You transition and then what? I just showed up

River: one day and here I was. Ha ha

Kai: ha ha ha. You like boys. Ha ha ha

River: ha ha. That's been consistent.

Kai: Did you ever like, come out as a gay guy? Was that ever a thing for you?

River: Being trans was so like out there for so many people.

River: Like it was so hard. For them to understand that to me like coming out as gay is almost wasn't necessary because I was already seen as a freak of sorts and [01:10:00] so it's sort of like you get a get out of jail free card where you can just, , people already see you as a freak so there's like a bad thing about that in terms of being seen as, as somebody who's doing something weird. But also there's like a freedom that comes with that. It's like, well, I already hit this check box in your life. So now it doesn't really matter what I do. And so, so it was kind of freedom as well.

Kai: That makes sense. It's hard to top the trans card. It is. Yeah. Well, thanks a lot for doing this today. River, good job. Yeah, thank you so much

River: for letting me do it for my first time ever.

Kai: Well, can we have you back another time? Sure. I'll hold you to that.

Jackal: Now it's time for Transponder. Remember, our Transponder segment is now TransJoy, and we are celebrating today by announcing the We Are Humans TransJoy Photography Exhibit in Rockville, [01:11:00] Maryland. Becoming Ourselves, a photography exhibit showcasing transgender and non binary joy, opened on Saturday, March 2nd at the Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Rockville, Maryland.

Jackal: The month long exhibit, organized by Gwen Anderson, features trans people from both the local community and across the country engaging in their favorite hobbies and activities, performing their jobs or just posing joyfully. It includes a mix of photos taken by Anderson, local photographers, and photographers from all over the country.

Jackal: The photos depict people ranging in age from pre teens to the elderly and includes images of teachers, pastors, athletes, and models. There are pictures of people proudly showing off their gender affirming top surgery scars, singing along at concerts, and playing in a roller derby league. The poster sized photos were selected by a panel of trans youth from across the country in January.[01:12:00]

Jackal: According to Anderson, the kids really loved the action shots. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact Kira at our Instagram page at transmasculinepodcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight, expertise, and heart filled stories.

Jackal: We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today, Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience.

Jackal: We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority. In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the [01:13:00] development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids.

Jackal: We fully anticipate that people in groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this. And as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms.

Jackal: We respond to feedback from our audience and we will be accountable when we screw up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. As we enter season four, we are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way.

Jackal: The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside entity. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, [01:14:00] please let us know your feedback and support are essential to our show success.

Jackal: podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. You can find us on Instagram, Transmaskingpodcast, on X, formerly Twitter. At podcast Stealth on YouTube stealth, the Trans Masculine Podcast. And be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast.com.

Jackal: Thank you for joining us until.