Thomas is a 61 year old trans man who lives in the Washington DC area with his partner and their two dogs. He began his gender transition in early 2000. While he has held many professional roles, he has been in the healthcare field for the last 15 years and has been an educator and an advocate for the trans and non-binary communities. He, like many previous STP interviewees, is happy to have found this podcast and is grateful for the opportunity to talk to Kai and Jackal about his experience.

Thomas Non Member

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back. We're excited to be entering our fourth season of Stealth, a trans masculine podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. It's amazing to us that we are still going strong after two years and we'll be featuring our 50th episode this season.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to that, our stories are very often

Kai: overlooked. We want our audience to know that we [00:01:00] ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways. As

Jackal: humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post

Kai: transition. If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to [00:02:00] health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy. We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Jackal: BANTER

Jackal: So,

Kai: I know that it's not Valentine's Day, Kai, but I want to wish you a happy Valentine's Day.

Kai: Happy Valentine's Day to you. Do you have Valentines of your own

Jackal: I do not, I broke up with my sweetie about a year and a half ago, and I haven't had permanent sweetie since I did get a couple of Valentine's day wishes from a really cutie guy that is geographically not close to me. Not close enough to be a sweetie.

Jackal: And a couple of friends kind of thing. Valentine's day means different things to different people. Some people don't like it . What about you? I know that you have a sweetie. You've had a sweetie for a number of years.

Kai: There's lots of weight in this world to [00:03:00] have partners and be romantic and be partnered with someone. And so I think one of the things I like about the world right now and the people that we've had on the show is not everybody's partner, not everybody values that like connection to people is really important.

Kai: And so, yes, I do have a Valentine who I cherish and, taking my partner to a concert, which is one of my favorite things to do together. One of the things that we've heard over and over again is just how important it is for us to stay together, to stay connected.

Kai: We have such a special bond with each other, which I think is so true. Each of our guests, it's, it means different things we've heard it's not enough of a commonality to just know that we're trans, but there's so much in there because of our histories.

Kai: Because of the time in which we decided to make changes or not make changes because of the political climate. As the years have gone by, my connection to our community has grown more important. And I don't know, what [00:04:00] about you? Silence.

Jackal: about the romantic love in Spanish, in Mexico, it's actually the day of friendship. They call it el dia de la amistad.

Jackal: And I like that ideology and so for me I want to kind of merge the Valentine's Day wishes out there for our trans brothers community and all of our listeners because I think you're right, it's very important for us to stay connected.

Jackal: I have enjoyed every single interview that we have done and that to me, that speaks to me about what you're talking about of this importance of bonding of transness, especially transness within our generation is enough for me to have a enjoyable conversation with all of the people that we've interviewed in these four seasons

Kai: Yes[00:05:00] I think you're right. And we've also heard that it's not about chronological age. Sometimes it's about length of transition, whatever that means. And I've also enjoyed folks crossing over the year 2000 a little bit later and really enjoyed, talking to Jude and Jason, and to Rupert, the persons who were over 70 who've been so important to so many people and the younger folks just feeling really inspired by Evan and Rej and

Jackal: Alex

Jackal: Yeah. People who transitioned when they were teenagers, and have just as many years in transition as I do. That's pretty incredible. Wow.

Kai: And geography plays into it. Race, ethnicity, privilege, all the things, all the little intersectionalities that have come up over the seasons have been really great. I cherish the time that we have together. My friendships with other trans guys those are very special to me and I am really grateful that we transitioned when we did with, in the circles that we did and I want that for others if that's what they want, I want that for others.

Kai: I'm [00:06:00] so grateful that people have Connected with us. I we have some great volunteers. I am so excited to meet And work with younger folks who are really excited. I'm so energized by it. I'm just going to shout out Kira right now. Kira has been ramping up our Instagram presence and doing things.

Kai: We're getting more people responding because Kira knows how to do that. And I don't know how to do that

Jackal: Yeah. And dedicating it to trans joy, Kira came in with this idea and was like, what do you think about it? And we're, me and Kaya are both like, we love you.

Jackal: That's amazing. That's totally our jam, you know, trans joy and all. It's like there's so much trans negativity out there already.

Jackal: You can get it on whatever feed you want, but our Instagram is dedicated to trans joy because Kira's doing it because Kai and Jackal would not be

Kai: and that's just like, embodies so much of his spirit.

Jackal: Yeah,

Kai: He's so sweet, it's just, I, yeah, instant, just absolutely adore Kira, and then also Adam. We don't [00:07:00] deserve Adam. We are so thrilled to have Adam talk about his experiences, to provide, research on our community, talk about the trans masc history in such an eloquent and thoughtful way, and then layers and layers of insight and intrigue.

Kai: I absolutely love all about Adam and then also the trans masc segment.

Jackal: Just to say it out loud, we are not going to get rich off of this program, if you can afford your membership or if you can't and want to be a member, reach out to us, let us know because you really don't want to miss Adams.

Jackal: His voice, how he does his research on the trans mask history, how he says his stories. He is phenomenal. He is amazing. And he's totally worth the 4 a month.

Kai: Not only do you get the bonus questions, you get like bonus Adam.

Jackal: You get Adam, which is like worth three of the 4.

Kai: he's so human. Like he captures these moments where some of them are absolutely cringe worthy?[00:08:00] Oh my God. And there's other times where it's just like, you just painted this beautiful picture, like such a beautiful picture.

Kai: I just absolutely adore what he does.

Jackal: And some of them were just super ridiculous.

Kai: He's silly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jackal: of it. He is so silly. He's so ridiculously silly.

Kai: So we can praise the hell out of people. And we also want to thank past volunteers who helped formulate the mentoring program. You know who you are. I don't have permission to mention your names.

Kai: But we also want to mention Kyle who has stepped up to try to help with marketing and things like that. We haven't covered costs.

Kai: Thank you for your support and really appreciate everybody contacting us, engaging on social media, wanting to be a guest or providing questions about who to have on really appreciate it. Stay connected with us. Stay connected with other, stick your neck out and take risks and mentor someone or be a mentee

Jackal: Reach out to us. If you don't think that you're, in the generation to be a a guest, if you want to be a buddy [00:09:00] to someone of our generation, please we're here to connect and create community.

Kai: AD

Kai: Jackal and I want to remind our listeners that we have a new member section. We want to thank those like Emory, Harold, Taylor, Matt, and Alex who have become members. Our member section offers bonus questions, features trans masculine pioneers no longer with us, and hilarious personal stories by our volunteer extraordinaire, Adam.

Kai: Here's another teaser.

Adam: Anyway, the story I wanted to tell today is a pretty familiar one in the land of trans masc ridiculousness, in that it centers on a misplaced dick. So, as I mentioned, part of my whole midlife trans epiphany involved blowing up my 13 year marriage, which in turn meant that I needed to sell my house, which I'm actually still in the process of doing.

Adam: And I have two kids, and my ex and I split custody of them, but point being, kids live here in this house 50 percent of the time, and as such my house frequently looks like a tornado of glitter and crayons just ripped right through it. So, anytime the broker wants to bring prospective buyers by, I have to do a frenzied power clean of the house to [00:10:00] make it look halfway presentable.

Adam: So, the other day, the broker calls and says he has some folks who want to see it, and I do the frenzied power clean and clear everyone out of the house. I come home a couple hours later after the showing, feeling extremely proud of myself for the manic level of cleaning efforts, and then notice that I manage to leave a giant, hyper realistic, quite veiny dick in the sink.

Adam: Yeah, so after having the requisite shame spiral of crippling embarrassment, I text the broker, I believe it was just a string of fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, with like a thousand apologies after, and then I chose that moment to out myself as trans to him, since that seemed like the logical thing to do.

Adam: He being a grown up who is extremely focused on making his commission, replied with something to the effect of lol, all good, I've seen worse, and said that he'd actually noticed it in time to conceal it before the buyer saw it. Which, of course, made me wonder whether that meant he had picked it up and moved it somewhere and then moved it back?

Adam: Or maybe he just threw a towel over it or something? These are the [00:11:00] questions that keep me up at night, wondering whether my broker has touched my dick. We also accept donations, and we want to thank Kida and Evan for their donations. The 4 a month. So go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up now. We don't wanna be gatekeepers, so if you feel like you can't afford $4 a month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com.

Adam: Consider buying a T-shirt while you're on our website. Or if you want to be cool like Adam. We're always looking for volunteers and we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Adam: BIO & Traniversary

Adam: Today's interview is with Thomas. Thomas is a 61 year old trans man who lives in the Washington, D. C. area with his partner and their two dogs. He began his gender transition in early 2000. While he has held many professional roles, he has been in the healthcare field for the last 15 years and has been an educator and an advocate for the trans and non binary communities.

Adam: He, like many previous [00:12:00] STP interviewees, is happy to have found this podcast and is grateful for the opportunity to talk to Kai and Jekyll about his experience. Thomas trienniversary is the year 2000, the same as Marty, Kyle, Curtis, Zion, and Rocco, so go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that year.

Adam: We'll lead in this episode with another musical masterpiece by Ed Vargas band, Eddie and the Heartbeats.

Adam: Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh

Jackal: So welcome back to season four of stealth, the transmasculine podcast. We're here with Thomas. How are you doing today, Thomas?

Thomas: I'm doing great, [00:13:00] thanks.

Jackal: Good. So we don't know you from transitioning eras. How did you get on our podcast?

Thomas: so I'm from the Washington, D. C. area, and I was feeling a little isolated, especially from people around my age, you know 50 plus, 60 plus, so I was talking to my own therapist about like feeling a little isolated especially like post pandemic, if you can call it post pandemic, but coming out of that, and I went on Reddit. One of the subreddits, which was F to M 50 or something like that, and just introduced myself and lots of people said hello. And one person said, Oh, you should check out this podcast. So I did. And, I just devoured like the first season almost because I just would listen to it to and from work and then I reached out to Kai and said, Hey, how's [00:14:00] it going? Maybe I'd want to be interviewed and then I was like, well, maybe I don't want to be interviewed. And then I was like, yeah, maybe I do. And then I was like, I don't know about that. So. So here I

Jackal: it. I love

Kai: you are. Here you are.

Jackal: That's definitely awesome. We appreciate you reaching out and we appreciate you being willing to tell your story. So let's get started. How did you learn about trans masculine identities?

Thomas: So like so many of your previous folks that you've talked to, you know, I of course have heard of trans feminine transitions. I was part of the recovery community here in DC and there was a woman who was trans and so I knew of her experience. So I knew it was a thing, but I didn't know it was a thing for people assigned female at birth.

Thomas: And then well, I should back up. In the 90s, like early 90s, I must have read an article in a [00:15:00] magazine about gender transitions, and I think the clinic was in Colorado, and I wrote to them, like, paper, pencil, put it in the mail and wrote to them about their program,

Jackal: You're a dinosaur.

Thomas: Yeah, they sent me a packet of information, right?

Thomas: This, manila folder with all this information in it and I was overwhelmed. And I was like, I'm not doing that. That's crazy. You know, put it away. Didn't look at it for years. And then fast forward. Here I am in this community. There's a trans woman. Okay, well, maybe it is a thing. And at that point, I had my own apartment and I had Okay.

Thomas: Finally been able to get my own computer, right? And like, connect to the internet. And I think that's really what opened the door for so many of us, you know, the ability to kind of click around and find another person, another, you know, community, more community. And so I, you know, the AOL chat rooms.

Thomas: [00:16:00] Existed, went into an AOL chat room, found some more trans women, one trans woman in particular who was of this area that I live in, and said, oh, you need to talk to Mike. And so she connected me with Mike, and I sat down with Mike and had coffee with him, and it was like, oh my

Thomas: Guy sitting across from me.

Thomas: That supposedly, allegedly was a female, you know and I was just like in awe and he connected with me with some other guys. There was this tiny group of guys that would meet in Arlington, Virginia at this little diner on Sundays, maybe it was once a month. I mean, granted it was like 23 years ago, so can't really remember the particulars.

Thomas: And they were just a bunch of people in various stages of transition. But most. We're very early. Most were like me just exploring, right, or identifying, maybe using another name, just[00:17:00] even in community and not even using the name out in there, you know, the rest of their lives. And so that kind of got me on the path.

Thomas: That was just the beginnings of it.

Jackal: talk us through it. What did you do? Did you do the Benjamin standard? Did you get hormones or

Thomas: Yeah. So I got resources from those guys because there was another group of guys too that were a little bit north in the Baltimore area and they had a little group of guys that would meet. And somehow I got connected to them. I can't tell you how, I don't remember. then I started getting resources.

Thomas: Then I started getting, Oh, everybody goes to this endocrinologist. Oh, people like explored this surgeon for chest surgery. Oh, this gynecologist has worked with men before, trans men before, so maybe had a sense of that. And so I went to that endocrinologist. It was surprisingly easy for me to get hormones.

Thomas: [00:18:00] And maybe because of all the, you know, privileges that I could walk in there, I could advocate for myself. , I was a certain age, so it didn't seem like it was kind of a sketchy. And and I had the financial resources cause all of this was out of pocket and the initial. Assessment and all that was several hundred dollars and I had just gotten paid from a, I was in a freelance video field back then.

Thomas: So I'd just gotten paid from a gig. So I was like, all right, I've got this cash. I've got this cash sitting there. Probably shouldn't have used it for that. But at the time, but it was like, let's go. So I paid him several hundred dollars and he gave me a prescription and then it was like, okay, what do I do with this?

Thomas: Like, it was scary, you know, like here we go

Thomas: And it was a very private thing for me. As I said before, I was in the recovery community and at that time, this is. This was later, so I'd known of the trans woman, [00:19:00] a few years go by, then I'm in this group that I used to go to on Friday nights, but it was a woman's group and there was another person in that group that was exploring gender a gender transition.

Thomas: But I didn't want to talk to them, because I was so afraid that they were going to tell me I was doing it wrong.

Thomas: As compared to them, I was afraid they were going to say, Oh no, you're not trans, I'm trans, and this is what it looks like. So I didn't want to talk to anybody about it, you know, so I was just like solo.

Thomas: I'll go to this info, I'll get my stuff, I'll do this. I had a friend who was a nurse, so she was willing to give me my first shot, because I had never like injected anything in myself before. Then she went on vacation and I ended up having to do it myself. But yeah, so I just, like, I just wanted to do it by myself because I just was so afraid of that somebody was going to say, you're wrong.

Jackal: So, tell us more about that. We've talked to people about [00:20:00] what it was like for us back in the day, right. And the messages we got. So why were you scared? What was the subliminal messages coming at you, or what was it like for you back then?

Thomas: I guess it was just my own fear. Yeah, it's just fear of being wrong. I think for lots of us, but for me, it was like, I didn't do girl very well, I did, I sucked at it. And so I was really afraid that man wasn't going to be right either. I was going to suck at that too, you know, and like, how can I, where am I going to fit?

Thomas: Let me just test out this man thing. And if it's really bad, I'll go back to the bad woman. Like I just didn't know. I just, it was no model. There was no mirror. There was nobody to say, Come on, come with us. You're doing it right. I mean, granted there was that small group of guys, but Lots of them, like I said, and this might have even been before I found them because it was all kind of mish mashed in 2000.

Thomas: [00:21:00] Not a lot of them were actually on hormones yet. You know, I think we were all in that, did we medically transition? Should we not? What does that look like? How do we do it? We were all kind of just Feeling our way back then,

Kai: I remember not being given consultation about how much testosterone to take, we talked to each other, but some people were like, I'm on three or 400 milligrams every week, or I'm on this or that. Now it seems to be much more gradual how they introduce people and monitor people.

Thomas: Yeah, and I think it was like turn the fire hose on of testosterone Right for all of us like just kind of dip us all in testosterone and we're gonna be men And I think you're right. I think I mean, obviously, the science is much better and the providers are much more informed and trained.

Thomas: But I think for us back then, it was like, get these guys to look like guys as quick as possible, right? And so I think [00:22:00] for a lot of us, our hair fell out. Our voices didn't adapt very well.

Kai: Yeah. Yeah.

Thomas: and so, yeah, it was just like, get there as quickly as possible. And I think for me, I think it was like, yeah, get me there as Quick as possible, right?

Thomas: I wanted to be seen as a guy as quick as possible, because I certainly didn't want to sit in that in between space. That was terrifying.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: How do you think your social standings like race, class, sexual identity even impacted your fears about transitioning or your ability to transition?

Thomas: Well, yeah, like I said earlier, I was employed. I had the financial resources to pursue it. I'm white. I'm educated. I have the ability to advocate for myself. So all that, of course, opened doors for me and made it a lot easier, and it gave me the confidence, too, that people were going to listen to me, it's so interesting, too, how that can shift, you know, I think how our social standing shifts as [00:23:00] we are perceived as male, and perception is You know, I use that loosely, but as people see us as male, then, oh, okay, you're more believable, you're more real, you can be trusted now, whereas as a female, I felt like it was like let me ask somebody else, you know, let me get a second opinion on that, where it was just like, you had more authority.

Thomas: I felt like I had more authority.

Jackal: Right.

Kai: you were talking a little bit about living your life as a trans man. Do you remember what some of the things you were told about how to live as a trans person?

Thomas: Well, you know, I have two brothers I guess I looked to them as models of what masculinity looked like. And so I can remember, maybe some of this, it was self inflicted or self imposed, like, this is what a guy looks like and this is how I should act. Like, you better get into sports, you better start knowing some statistics, you better not be so [00:24:00] emotional.

Thomas: You better not care as much about certain things that you care about, like clothing, Ha! Oh.

Thomas: you know and stuff like that, like, there was just these kind of clues that said, you know, what you like, you really can't like anymore. Or if you don't like it out in public. Don't be so public with The things that you're drawn to. And I want to say that this was early on in transition where I was just like, I don't fucking know what to do. Like how do I do this? So I was just taking it from whatever was close by. And I almost felt like I was failing. There was one experience I had where I was with my brothers and my father. And my father was renovating a room in his house. And so we were down there helping him. And I Just like, of course, just assume that I must be down there helping him because I am a guy now and this is what [00:25:00] guys do. We're all going to go down there and we're going to do some woodworking and we're going to do some construction.

Thomas: Right? And I was down there and I was like, I don't want to do this. I'm trying to like hammer something above my head and it flipped and I think my brothers were looking at me like bless her heart. She's trying to be a guy or you know what I mean? It was just like looking back on it.

Thomas: I'm like, Oh, God, what was I doing? But I was just trying so hard to be. What I guess I thought I was supposed to be, you know, without like looking at like, well, who are there was like, oh, who I'm supposed to be versus like, who do you want to be, you know,

Jackal: we forget that there's so many ways to be men in the world. Like, cis men aren't all the same, right? It's not a cookie cutter. We have the stereotype that we all have had whatever images of our male role models, cis male role models in our lives. But when we transition, we have [00:26:00] this cookie cutter stereotype, ideology, and we forget that we can be whatever type of men we want to be because men aren't all the same.

Thomas: I know. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, but I speak for me. It just took, it took a while. Right. takes A long time.

Thomas: Yeah, it took years for me to feel comfortable in that and I think it's ever evolving

Kai: Tell us more. So you decide. Put the hammer down, Thomas. What?

Thomas: Yeah, it was like why am I trying so hard? I guess I wanted the love and acceptance of my family, who doesn't, right? And so I thought, well, that's how I've got to do it. I've got to be my brothers because they're from the same Cloth, right? And so this is what it looks like. And then, as I matured as a human being and as I matured as a man and I, as I matured as a trans man and had [00:27:00] more life experience in the community, I was like, okay, this, I don't have to be that. I read somewhere, and this wasn't even that long ago that This guy had written this article about his own transition, his own evolution, and he was like, I couldn't even really express my femininity until I was a man, you know?

Thomas: And I feel that so much, like I couldn't even be and honor my feminine self until I was grounded in my masculinity

Jackal: That's an amazing aspect of like how we express our feminine side is through transition.

Thomas: Right, right, right. Yeah, just the evolution of and the expectations just change.

Thomas: And I think we trust ourselves more. I know

Thomas: That's our choices more.

Kai: When you were hanging out with the other trans guys, in various phases of transition or not, do you remember what you guys talked about? Like how things should go or how you should live? Because I [00:28:00] came from the dyke community and I was essentially not a part of it anymore. And I thought anything flannel or anything remotely lesbian looking, I have to just toss away and never wear it again.

Kai: Do you remember?

Thomas: Yeah, I think so I got involved in a peer support group here in the D. C. area pretty. gosh, I want to say probably mid 2000. So maybe four or five years into my transition, there was a group here that it was already formed, but I always got the idea that it was for younger guys. And, I'm pushing 40 when I start to transition.

Thomas: So, you know, the 20 somethings, I don't really think I'm going to vibe with very well. I did explore it because I wanted connection. I wanted to meet more people. And then I became kind of a facilitator and an organizer of that group because. Well, I'm very organized, I felt like, okay, let's I can organize these meetings, I can get us all together, I can do the scheduling, I can find the place.

Thomas: And so I just kind of took the lead on that. And think [00:29:00] that really opened my eyes to the spectrum or the just the blur, or pool, or galaxy of identities that are available then. And while there were a lot of us that were of that, we must be men, this is what men look like. There were that kind of more queer, gender queer, non binary kind of identity was creeping up.

Thomas: But I think we, we were really kind of focused on how to be men. What do we need to, how do we need to dress? I can remember one of our meetings was about how to tie a tie, you know, and clothing and where to shop and haircuts and how to shave. But like a lot of guys, it's like, I had no clue. Like, what does that look like?

Thomas: You know, there's a lot of fear around that. I don't know if that answered your question, but,

Kai: That's fantastic. So our show is called Stealth Transmasculine Podcast. Have there been periods of time where you lived stealth, or [00:30:00] what does stealth mean for you?

Thomas: Well, I think stealth, is situational for me. And I've heard you talk about stealth and disclosure and discretion and all those things. And I've never, well, number one, I don't talk about myself on my own journey very often. You know what I mean? As a therapist, and you probably relate to this Kai because I do work with the community.

Thomas: I just hear everybody's story. I don't really tell my story a lot. I might tell like, Oh, this little tiny piece or that identify that word identifies or identify with that word. But in terms of how I live my life, I just don't disclose in a whole lot of situations. can Google my name and figure it out, probably. I don't think it takes that, you know, because I worked for a health organization here that's LGBTQ. It's like the LGBTQ, health agency here, so it can connect the dots. But in my neighborhood. I don't know if my neighbors know I'm trans. You know, this is Trans Awareness [00:31:00] Week, so I'll put the trans flag out and for Pride Month, I'll hang the Pride flag out there.

Thomas: Now, I don't know if people are connecting, why does Thomas have a flag outside his house? Is there a trans person in that home? Or, is he a great ally, or what? Or they don't give a shit, I don't know. I remember the first year I hung up the trans flag on Trans Visibility Day, we were, my spouse and I were taking a walk with our dogs and guy around the corner is like, you know, I noticed you have a flag.

Thomas: I don't recognize that flag. What flag is that? And I panicked.

Kai: Yeah.

Thomas: I just like shut down. And my wife says, Oh, it's the trans, trans flag and was like, Oh, okay, that's cool. And he just went, about his business sweeping his driveway or whatever. And I'm like, gosh, wow, that still gets me if somebody stops me in my tracks and says, What's this trans thing?

Jackal: Yeah. But tell me more about that. Why? You know, because you feel exposed [00:32:00] or what is it?

Thomas: because I guess I wasn't ready for that. I feel exposed. I can't determine this is safe. This is not safe. When if I go a little further, it's probably safe, but immediately it's like, oh, you know, it's very personal. It's private.

Thomas: I think for myself. There's still those, that shame, of being trans and being different and not wanting to be seen as, Oh, the trans guy.

Thomas: Yeah, there's a trans guy that lives around the corner. You know, like, that becomes something else.

Jackal: Yeah. It's so interesting because the thing that strikes me is that the ally, the wife is able to just boom, say with the flag is. fully confident, no fear of judgment. And we are the ones that are taking aback. And it's like, Oh my God, if I identify this flag, am I flagging myself?

Jackal: And this internalization, like you said, of those messages of, am I [00:33:00] safe in this moment? What's happening? And just that ping maybe of shame, that's still with us. It's very interesting. And you're not the first person to say it. How can we get past that?

Jackal: Right? Like, how can we just, I don't know. How do I, how do we swallow up

Thomas: for me, it is. You know, I think for me, if you would ask that question, how, Thomas, how do you get past that? I think. Age, to be honest, like, I think as I've gotten older, I've gotten more, who gives a fuck, you know what I mean? What do I care about the guy around the corner? That's privilege, because I don't have to worry about the guy around the corner, most likely.

Thomas: So I recognize that as privilege, but also like, oh well, okay, so I'm the trans guy that lives over here , around the corner. Whatever, it doesn't bother me as much as it might have, or as much as it might in a different situation if, let's say, [00:34:00] it was a workplace, and now I'm the trans guy at work, and do I want that?

Thomas: Do I want to be the trans guy at work? And, I don't know, are people thinking that way? That he's the trans guy at work? Or is it just me that's thinking I'm the trans guy at

Jackal: That's exactly my point.

Kai: We had a guest on Tristan who was talking about, I was so impressed by what he said. He was talking about dating and the apps as a gay trans guy, so he's dating cis guys. And he about how , I disclose and then whatever your reaction says everything about you, not me so he doesn't take that in. And to me, that's very difficult for me to wrap my brain around. I think it's absolutely wonderful and I wish I could do that in the same way. Because I do think people, I fall back on they're doing some sort of accounting to reduce me to a thing, whatever that is, a body part or wondering about a body part or how I have sex or don't have sex .

Kai: So I really appreciate you talking to us about this. And then you've mentioned over time, as you've aged, you've become more comfortable [00:35:00] and maybe more fluent in how you respond to things like this. Are there other ways maybe where the amount of disclosure you do like shifts over time?

Kai: Has it changed as you've continued to season

Thomas: as I ripen

Thomas: I don't know if it's well definitely it's changed, I think it comes with confidence in my own masculinity and how I inhabit my body and feel comfortable in that. I feel fine disclosing, whereas before, I think, of what you say, Kai, my mind goes to, okay, where are they going right now, and are they like, oh, that's a girl,

Thomas: oh, that's a super butch dyke, and for me, that felt uncomfortable. I don't want to be seen as a lesbian, I don't want to be seen as super butch or as a girl, so I'm gonna not say that I'm trans right now, and we'll just leave that as just kind of a mystery.

Thomas: But now I don't think that.

Thomas: Because there is gender shorthand, right? You can go around the room and say, okay, male, female, male, female, in the [00:36:00] general public, that's what we do. We just put people in boxes. And so now I think that people just throw me in that box, the male box, and so I don't feel like I have to

Jackal: Mailbox? They throw you in the mailbox?

Thomas: put the flag up, but now I don't feel like I have to defend it or internally or externally defend that.

Jackal: I want a little mailbox with a flag and it's the trans flag.

Thomas: the trans flag!

Kai: Maybe we can create one. That's a great idea.

Jackal: I love it. I love it. We're in the mailbox and a little trans flag comes up. I just love my own jokes. I swear. I am. I am. Oh my goodness. Okay, well, that's

Thomas: Just for Jackal.

Jackal: fine. So we are focusing on life post transition. Early transition is great. It's important to talk about. It's important for us to [00:37:00] reclaim our stories. But you know what? We're more than just Our past, right? We're more than just our transition. And so we want to know what's important now. What are some of the important milestones or moments in your life since you've transitioned.

Thomas: Great question thanks. I changed careers. After I transitioned, I was previously in the news. Videographer editing business worked for several news stations. Also, was a freelance editor and graphic designer for sports and stuff. And so it's like a previous life. And so then I transitioned, worked for a news agency through my transition and then went to grad school. And got a master's in counseling and left the news field, that career and became a counselor. Worked for an LGBTQ health agency here in Washington, D. C. and [00:38:00] part of their behavioral health team. And just completely remade myself very related to my transition because I wanted to work with folks.

Thomas: Like Me, you know and I think one of the things I learned about myself in becoming like a facilitator of the peer support group and just being more involved in community is that there were a lot of people out there that maybe couldn't advocate for themselves or didn't lack the tools to advocate or just didn't even know where to start and I'm like, I can help you.

Thomas: not To say that I'm going to swoop in here and just save all you, you know, people. But like, Okay.

Jackal: Orient people.

Thomas: Orient people and also like make people fucking listen to us, you know, like I'm gonna, like, let's go in here together and let's get these motherfuckers to listen to us and give us what we need the help that we need, the resources that we need.

Thomas: So I think that's what really drove me to go back to school and get a master's and get and [00:39:00] change careers is that I want to help people and I also want to tell them you can fucking do this. If I did it, you can do it. You're not alone.

Jackal: I

Thomas: You know, and so I think that's, that was a huge milestone for me.

Thomas: Of course meeting my wife and getting married, a big milestone. Becoming

Jackal: long have you been married?

Thomas: Been married almost 10 years now. We've been together 12. She has two children from a previous marriage, so becoming a step parent to those kids who are now young adults. That was a big milestone

Jackal: do they know you're trans? Or are you like, is it separate?

Thomas: they do know I'm trans. I Came out to them pretty early on in our relationship, or the relationship with their mother, and they were like, okay,

Thomas: you know, what's for lunch?

Jackal: They're like, it has nothing to do with me, why do I care?

Kai: precisely, they don't care. They're just like, whatevs, let's go have snacks.

Thomas: Really, they didn't really care, it's just a thing, you know.

Jackal: are some of the greatest [00:40:00] challenges you've overcome post transition again?

Thomas: Overcome. I don't know overcome, but I think that accepting myself, I think is a lifelong process. For me as a trans person, I think, because I do have my days where I don't feel man enough, but you know, to be honest guys, I think for me, when we talk about transition, you know, the early parts of transition, I think it's all about like, when am I going to get my beard when I'm, you know, my voice going to change when am I going to look a little bit more muscular and masculine in these clothes, but latter transition.

Thomas: I think it's more internal for me, the journey, and am I feeling comfortable in my gender? Am I presenting the right way and comfortable in certain environments in my gender? And I think that can ebb and flow, even today. And I think I have more of a hang up with how tall I'm not,[00:41:00] with how short I am, than my appearance, otherwise. You know? So if I'm standing in a group of cis men, I feel really short,? I'm 5'2 I used to say I was 5'4 but now as I get older, maybe I'm shrinking, but also I'm like, come on, Thomas. You're fucking 5'2 and I may even be 5'1 but so, so I feel that, I feel that, and that makes me go into my gender, and am I really embodying this gender as I should, which is, saying it out loud, it's like, yeah, you are.

Thomas: As my brother said, you're just gonna be a little guy when he said it, I was like, Well, fuck you. But you know, that's what I am. I'm a short guy,

Jackal: It's the should, right? Am I embodying myself as I should? That's a good question, but it's not relevant to being five two or five, you know, [00:42:00] embodying myself as I should has a lot more with that internalized journey that you're talking about than my external appearance, right?

Thomas: Absolutely. Yeah. And so the ebb and flow of that where I can get depending on the environment doesn't happen very often, thankfully, but I can get there I can go there I should say in my head about like, Oh, I feel like, I don't feel as masculine or like an adult man in this particular group.

Kai: I think when I'm around some cis guys who are taller. I have a nephew who towers over me. And there are other situations. I work with young teenagers and so if you've ever been pat on your head when you're a grown man, that is one of the most emasculating things in the world and a teenager who's impulsive, who's really sweet, but trying to express affection, they have no clue and I'm shrinking in my skin, right, going, and I am short in stature and I've just got pat on the head by this 16 year old, you know, [00:43:00] and that is like one, stop it.

Kai: But also it's

Jackal: a dog, thanks.

Kai: right it really happens infrequently, but I just totally feel that right in my chest there and you're

Thomas: Yeah, it's infantilizing,

Kai: Yeah, it is.

Thomas: am I a man? Am I an adult man? You know, and

Kai: Right. And I think you're right was confidence grows over time. That can really shift and how people engage, with me or with other people, and I'm really happy to hear that's evolved over time for you.

Thomas: yeah, and it's a lifelong process, right? It may change, but it's trending positively, meaning like it's moving to a more confident place.

Thomas: And sits there in a confident place very often, but sometimes it can get, you know, poked, and I can feel it.

Jackal: So how have your other, how have your other social standings shifted and changed in that, you talked about being white and now you're a white guy, you're a white older man, how do you think your social standings [00:44:00] have changed post transition?

Thomas: I think I said earlier, I think I'm respected a little bit more when I open my mouth. What I say is taken as real and factual. Maybe more often, I'm maybe asked, for my opinion more often. As a man I think in the way in which we, I interact with women has changed. Because I have to be conscious of that I'm a man now, like this coming from a man and a 61 year old man, it might be creepy, you know, like I have to watch how I approach people, what I might say, not that I'm going to say something creepy, but how it may be perceived by others.

Thomas: I mean, commenting on somebody's cute kid, I might have to check myself as a man, commenting like on a woman's appearance. Like, like if I want to say, Oh my God, I love [00:45:00] that purse because I love her purse. How does that come off? You know, as a man commenting on a woman's purse, you know versus just like, I just like your purse, you know?

Thomas: So I have to kind of check myself in the way that I interact with people and their own feelings of safety, which before it, I didn't have to filter for that. I think I'm more conscious of that now.

Kai: One of the things I'm thinking about is just coming to a peaceful place in my sexuality and my queerness and how that expresses itself. 'cause I can't separate who I am from that. So I'm very much effeminate. I work with a lot of gay folks. People see me as a gay guy and I have a certain amount of privilege or leeway and that I can comment on someone's outfit or say it's fabulous versus if somebody doesn't know me, I might check myself

Thomas: Right. And I think for me, Kai the sexuality, gender soup, right [00:46:00] is very curious because I was a lesbian forever. My adult, awareness of it was maybe a little bit delayed, but when I transitioned, I was definitely part of the lesbian community. I could never call myself a lesbian. I couldn't call myself a woman. I couldn't call myself a lesbian. It was too female. I could call myself gay, And, but I also don't want to just abandon that history, I want to claim that and own that queer part of my history and queer part of my identity, and I think I, I do get identified as a gay man, I don't identify as a gay man, I have a cis wife female, and, but I don't mind it, because it allows me to be part of the community, alright, if that's how you see me, then okay, but it's confusing, you know?

Jackal: I do think, though, the male looking at children thing [00:47:00] is really telling. what I find is length of time, right? So, for example, yesterday I was on a metro and there was a woman with a baby standing next to me, and the baby was staring at me, right? And so, it's a cute baby, I stare back, ? Something simple, like, is that a smile? And I look away, I say, what I say, I look away, the baby looks away. The mom doesn't have, you know, like, but if I'm still staring at the baby, like, and trying to interact, then it becomes weird now. If I was a woman, it wouldn't, but as a guy, that all of a sudden becomes weird.

Jackal: And so for me, it's all about the length of time that I do when I'm interacting with a child. And with women, I don't know, I always like weird stuff, right? So I think I remember the other, this woman was wearing like this, [00:48:00] like bright, hot pink dress. And these like matching hot pink shoes and I was like, wow, you're all like one color you're all like coordinated. She's like, yes, she's like super happy because for one she's wearing something super quirky that's not going to get her a lot of like positive feedback.

Thomas: Right.

Jackal: Just happy for the attention, right? But those are the only kind of things that I really do, but I totally get you. I totally hear what you're saying. what's your Life like now?

Thomas: I have a private practice. I work with adolescents and adults. And so some of it is virtual. This is kind of a virtual office space here that I have at home. And then I also have an office downtown that I go into and I see folks in person too , as we come out of the pandemic years, people are starting to come back into the office and I do appreciate that work.

Thomas: My wife works full time. She's a school teacher, and our kids. They're out of the [00:49:00] house he's like 25, pushing 26, and she's 22, she's a senior in college, so she's not quite out of the house, but right there, and so we're kind of empty nesters, kind of figuring out our lives as empty nesters, and what we want to do with this kind of next chapter.

Thomas: Right. And we have two dogs. We absolutely love. I think that's another milestone is when we got Maisie, our little pup. She's not a puppy anymore. And then we adopted a dog that was my dad's, and he passed and then it was my mom. And then I was like, I'm taking this dog. So now we have two dogs.

Thomas: And we have a really nice little tight knit group of friends. That we hang out with it's kind of a simple life, you know, hanging out with our friends and we do some social stuff together. As we age, we've been kind of slowing down a little bit with what we can do in terms [00:50:00] of our active life.

Thomas: I used to be a big time runner in the 90s, marathoning and all that stuff. I don't marathon anymore. But, I met my wife hiking, we were part of a hiking group. And so we try to get outside and do a lot of outdoor stuff together. And we love the arts. We just went to the symphony. Not that we're like, we go to the symphony and we go to the opera. It's the first time we've ever been. And they were free

Kai: It sounds very grown up.

Jackal: we're not Judging. Yeah. you're very Grown up.

Thomas: Free tickets. So we went to that, but like we try to get out, but then we go out on a Friday night and we're like, Oh my God, the traffic's horrible.

Thomas: Let's go home, simple kind of life and it's comfortable a lot to be grateful for.

Jackal: Sweet. that's Really nice. So you mentioned something about soon becoming empty nesters and kind of figuring out what you're going to do. what's That like for you? Like, you know, we talked about the trans flag and your wife is able to answer the question, like what it is. And you like feel a little bit of [00:51:00] taken abackness.

Jackal: What's growing older, retiring, living life after feel like for you.

 I guess I have concerns about health care and what that looks like. What do we do as old people if yeah. In terms of elder care and moving into a assisted living , so I have some concerns about that, , access to hormones, what my body looks like, if I need assistance, those fears are back here.

Thomas: I feel really lucky to have a really tight group of friends. who know me, some of whom also identify as trans. So I feel like we've got each other's back.

Kai: How so?

Thomas: If we need care, if we need an advocate, that they'll step in. I have a really good friend of mine that I've had for, gosh, decades now, who's a trans guy who's probably 12 years younger than me. [00:52:00] So I feel like, okay, he's my little brother, he can advocate for me if for some reason I become incapacitated and me for him, because I feel like I want to have a spokesperson.

Thomas: I mean, granted, I have family members. I don't think they get it. I don't think they would really understand what I need. And so making sure. Or feeling at least some confidence in that I have people in my corner is important to me.

Kai: touch with the DC and Virginia, Baltimore? Yeah.

Thomas: One or two of them became really good friends. But, just like this past summer, the guys from Baltimore had a gathering. Was really cool because, the two of these guys They're partners and they have three children together, three young children together.

Thomas: It's just fabulous to see what's come of our lives , and [00:53:00] just the varied path that we can all take and succeed, and come back together and see where we've been and I think for a lot of us fears of being alone,

Thomas: the Dating piece, the partnering piece, how does that happen?

Thomas: and it's nice To see that people have found partnership in their life, because , being alone, of course, is a fear. it was a fear For me. I spent over a decade decades alone, relationship to relationship, trying to find, like, what I felt fit. That for me, but that kind of, it's going down a different track of dating and dating as a lesbian and then, or externally at lesbian, and then dating as a man and what that felt like was very different,

Kai: we could go off on that for a little while.

Thomas: Absolutely.

Kai: As our identities shift and who we date and our experience [00:54:00] dating it can just be a whole new dance.

Thomas: Right, and getting that validation, right? Finally being seen as the person that you've seen yourself or wanted to be seen as was just really phenomenal for me. And yeah, and just being able to explore that part of myself as a man, because for me, like, I was always falling in love with straight women, right, crushing out on straight women and being turned down or ignored or whatever it was rejected in some way.

Thomas: and that Was a lot of heartache for me. And like how do I get out of that? Like, this was way back when transitioning wasn't even a thing. It was like, okay, this is my cross to bear. I don't, you know, just imagine like, oh just die and come back as a guy and then be able to really live my life,

Kai: When you met your wife, you're part of this hiking group, or I don't know if it was a group or a formal thing, was it a queer thing. I know it's a little off, but talk to us a little bit about how you [00:55:00] disclosed to her. 'cause I'm assuming she knows you're a trans guy now.

Jackal: Yes, the kids know, but she doesn't know still.

Thomas: Right, that's why I have these in. Is there another room? I did disclose. I was part of this hiking group and she was part of the hiking group. We did not know each other at all. And so we're on this hike out in the Shenandoah mountains. It was gorgeous. And so they bus us all out there. We do the hike and we all finish at varying times because we all hike at our own speed. And so we were done and she was there, and we're drinking Coke and eating some snacks. We just start chatting. And she's definitely cute. And, you know, blah, blah, blah. We talk a little bit and then we get on the bus and we go back.

Thomas: And I'm sitting in a different place in the bus than she is. And so we don't even really talk anymore for that trip.

Thomas: Two Weeks later, I go on another hike.

Thomas: On the hike. And so there she's again. And we chat. There's another [00:56:00] piece to this, though. If we have time, I just want to tell you this one story.

Thomas: So this is the second time I'm on this hike. They bus us out in these big kind of greyhound buses. And right before the hike starts, they say, OK, all the guys go over to this section of the woods and all the women go over to this section of the woods and use the. bathroom,

Kai: Oh,

Thomas: Right?

Jackal: I love hate bathroom stories. I

Kai: without it. So talk to us.

Thomas: yeah, it's fucking hell, right?

Thomas: So, so I'm like, okay, well, where does Thomas go? The guys went over there. And so I kind of moseyed over there. Of course, I didn't use the bathroom. But, I'm like, I have to really go to the bathroom. Right? And so we're on this hike. And what we're supposed to do if we go off trail to use the bathroom or anything is leave our pack in the middle of the hike so that sweeper knows that there's somebody still there

Thomas: all Leave us.

Thomas: Well, I don't want the sweeper to know that I'm in the woods using the bathroom [00:57:00] because I don't want the sweeper to come looking for me. I don't want anybody to see me. What am I doing as a guy? So I don't put my bag down and I just go off and I use the bathroom and I come back and The hiking group is way the fuck ahead of me now.

Thomas: So, I'm hustling, and luckily, thank God, I was in tip top shape, so I'm hustling trying to find the people. I can't find fucking people. I'm in the middle of the fucking woods, I can't find the people, right? And so I'm like, okay, let me double back, take this other branch, go that way.

Thomas: Finally find the fucking people and the sweeper, of course, is like, where were you? You're not supposed to go off the trail by and I'm like whatever I pass her by. I just keep going and just mix up with all the other hikers because I don't want to talk about it, right? And my poor wife to be sees me and she's eating her lunch and , I just pass her right by.

Thomas: So she's thinking, oh, I guess he doesn't want to talk to me, but I'm [00:58:00] all in my head about my bathroom fucking trauma that I've gone and I don't use that word loosely, but my, you know, incident and, I have to calm down from that because I'm scared. I scared myself, like I'm gonna get lost in the woods because I can't use the bathroom, right?

Thomas: They're gonna leave me in the woods because they don't even know I'm out there, you know? I'm just a little bit shaken. But we do end up talking a little bit after that, my wife and I, and, or this woman and I, and she slides me a note on the bus as we're driving by. Back, slides in your note, like, I'm not, I don't know if I'm going to be on a hike for a while, but here's my email address.

Thomas: And so,

Jackal: Love

Thomas: me her email address, and I didn't want to

Jackal: teenager high school sliding notes to each other's stories.

Thomas: And I didn't email her right away, because I didn't want to appear too eager. You know, give her a little couple of days, maybe I'll email, maybe I won't, but of course I emailed. And then we went on a date, and it was [00:59:00] history.

Thomas: I did come out to her, however, on our third date. We were eating a cupcake on the steps in DC of some portrait museum, and I said, there's something I need to tell you, you know? And she's like, okay, I can imagine, he's gay, he's already married, whatever and I said, was born female. I'm always kind of weary, wary to say I'm trans because I feel like people will be like, what is that?

Thomas: I don't get it. You know? So, so as. That I was born female, and she just said, Huh, you're kidding. another one. Yeah, I am kidding. So yeah, so I told her, and she said, gosh, you're kidding.

Thomas: And I could just see the gears turning in her head. And then the end of the date, , and so she left and I left. I went over to my good friend's house and I'm like, it's over. I'll never hear from her again, and she actually wrote me an email [01:00:00] later that night and said, can't get rid of me that easily.

Thomas: That's okay with me, and I have lots to learn about it, but, and that was it, You can, you can't really script that out. Better is the response and how you laid it out and you did it early too. So you weren't maybe as invested as you could have been.

Thomas: Yeah, and I didn't want her, I didn't want to be physical with her, I didn't want to kiss her or anything like that without her knowing my history. Just because, I didn't want her to freak out, and if she freaked, it's necessary information, but I just wanted To know what, who she was talking to and if she was open to us moving forward together.

Thomas: And she was.

Kai: I really appreciate that Thomas. You're talking so much about the bond that we share as trans guys. And trans person is just how important and special that is, and as we move forward in our lives, how you want to continue that and you're here, you connected with us and you're really highlighting how lovable we are [01:01:00] and how level, and that's just one of the things that we really like you're illustrating that so well, I really appreciate it.

Kai: And as you think forward. You know, 10, 20 years, 30 years. What kind of support do you think you're going to need? what kinds of Additional support do you think you'll need? How come?

Thomas: you know, through Reddit, through the podcast, and here I am sitting here with you. I think I want more trans guy community, trans masculine community because as a private practitioner in my therapy practice, I don't get a lot of community involvement or contact.

Thomas: A lot of that is self imposed, right? I can't go to the peer support group that I just sent my client to, but I want community. I want to know more people and I want to know more people my age, you know and so I found it. and I [01:02:00] think I've Done a good job of like finding the services that I need and finding the resources that I need, needed, when I wanted them.

Thomas: I mean, I might have found the resource, but I maybe didn't connect for a couple of years. But to know that it's there it just feels better, you know, of course.

Kai: You sound really well supported now. and you have established a lot of support and community and you're very well loved and taken care of. and That's fantastic

Jackal: Thomas, how would you like to be remembered?

Thomas: It's a big question. Feeling supported. I think that can change day by day. You know what I mean? Like today, I feel really supported, but maybe next week I won't feel so supported. And I think that can be. Yeah, Thomas, your support hasn't changed, but your perception of your support, it's changed, or your own mental health mood has changed, where you feel really isolated and alone, and [01:03:00] you're just not reaching out in the right way, you know, or you're not leaning on the people that are really there for you.

Thomas: And I think, I've struggled with depression, and addiction, and so I can get in my head and feel really extremely isolated. and So, I have to talk myself out of that isolation sometimes. And sometimes I do it really well and sometimes I don't do it very well.

Kai: You're in a Helping profession where you're trained to ask things of other people and support other people. And oftentimes like for me sitting in that same chair, it is, you're not going, I'm not going to the support group. I'm not connecting in a way they're not my friends. People who are my clients are not my friends as much as I care, right.

Kai: And I hear that completely. It's really easy to feel this sort of peripheral connection, but not be a part of.

Thomas: right, right. And so I can feel really alone in that. But that's not the question you asked. You asked about how do I want to be remembered. I guess I want to feel that I've [01:04:00] helped someone, I want there to be members of the community that, that say, Oh yeah, Thomas really helped me. I talked to Thomas and it really helped. And I, when I first started in the field, I was the navigator, the trans health navigator, that helped introduce people to services at the clinic and get them on their path, hopefully their journey. I hope people could say that Thomas saw me, that I felt seen. And I think that's just really important because God, I wanted to be seen, right? Even if I came in there and I looked like a woman, I wanted somebody to say, I see you, Thomas, I see Thomas in there and I can help you get to a place where you see Thomas too. And so I hope for some people, they remember that first meeting with them and it may have been one and only.

Thomas: And I hope, maybe for some of the clients that I work with, they say, yeah, I got a lot out [01:05:00] of our work together and he was helpful. It means a lot to somebody to say, like, I felt seen for the first time in my life.

Thomas: Right, right. And it goes back to that that inner voice that says, no, you're not real, but to have somebody on the outside say, yeah, you are, you're fucking real,

Thomas: And I'm going to Help you get more real. I'm going to help you so you can see yourself as real and valid and worthy.

Kai: Preach

Thomas: That's a great place to be too, right? That's a great position to be in. It's a lot of responsibility and again, I'm not a savior. I'm not here to just carry you to your true self. That's your journey. But if I can help facilitate that, you're going to let me help facilitate that? That's a privilege, it's an honor.

Kai: Aw. Thank you. Thank you. It sounds to me like that's one of the things that brings you a lot of joy. What are some other things that bring you trans joy? What brings you joy?

Thomas: Gosh, trans [01:06:00] joy. I've been going through this time here, that actually brought me to you, where I have been not feeling a lot of trans joy, feeling isolated, feeling a little crushed in my identity because I am like, from the outside I look like this straight guy, you know, like got a wife and two dogs and there he is.

Thomas: And I want to be queer. Sometimes I want to be more queer. You know, and so like hanging my flag outside of my home is trans joy, having the little garden flag all year that says You know, we're queer over here, or at least

Jackal: Being on this podcast is

Thomas: being on this podcast, motherfuckers, listening to my brothers and, my people in community, when I went to your website and I scrolled through all the people you had talked to, there was three or four guys on there that I know, and I'm like, oh my god, there's Sean or whoever, and it was really wonderful.

Thomas: That's joy

Thomas: I haven't talked to that guy in a long time. Oh, yeah, he used to live here, but now he lives over there, and there he is, and so that's joy [01:07:00] for me, or just going on my Instagram feed and seeing younger trans folks flying the fucking flag

Thomas: of all this Bullshit.

Thomas: that Brings me trans joy.

Thomas: You know, But being in community and hoping that I can bring that back into my life and in ways that served me, or have served me in the past. I don't think it's going to be the same. Obviously, it's going to look different, but I want it. I remember the thing that I spaced on we were talking about stealth and we were talking about like people not using their dead name, right? And I think you all said, I don't use that term dead name because it's part of my history.

Thomas: Part of my history as a queer person, part of my history as the, part of the LGBTQ was being, my, my name was Stacey, was being Stacey, and Stacey was a fucking fighter, man.

Thomas: Stacey survived.

Thomas: When,[01:08:00] for so many of us, we just don't fucking survive it, and it was Hard. Hard times. but Stacy kicked ass and she made it and she was there to push Thomas over the finish line, you know and so I celebrate that part of my history, and I embrace it and I want to, as I get older, I think want to be more vocal about it.

Thomas: I want to be more visible about it,

Jackal: That's beautiful. I love that. I think that's a beautiful image for me to hear from you.

Kai: One of the messages I've heard is that I need to be sort of rigid and write that past off, as if it was some sort of mistake that I was born female or that I lived my life as such, and I need to rewrite it, I think as I've reflected over time, I didn't have regrets about transition.

Kai: I had some sadness that I couldn't love the girl that I was. and you're right. Like so many [01:09:00] of us are just fucking fierce girls. Women, and you talk, Jackal, about being a punk rock badass and just that ferocity just to make it in this world, not conforming to what the world says we should, how we should do it. And now here we are on the other side and looking back and reflecting on us with compassion,

Kai: that's beautiful. That gives me the chills.

Thomas: Yeah, just loving all parts of ourselves, and that takes time. You know what I mean? And it's not constant, right? Right?

Kai: yeah, and I don't think there's a mistake, that's my own thing, , I don't think there was a mistake made.

Thomas: Now that we're here, or I should say speaking for myself, now that I'm here I have the bandwidth, the reserve to pull other people along, to carry other people that might not have the reserve that I have, and so if they let me, yeah, I'm here for it.

Kai: What would you like to say to the younger, newer, transitioning folks, [01:10:00] whether they're younger or older or non binary folks, people who are or not transitioning. Just what would you like to say to them?

Thomas: I think part of me wants to say don't forget us, I want to say we're still here. I think you do something about your opening about where we're here. We're lovable. We're living our lives. We are, as we get older, we become irrelevant.

Thomas: You know, and that's hard to accept. I love the mentor, mentee, or that kind of program that you're trying to launch. I think that's important. There's so many different things to say to young people. One of them is don't give up, you know? Like, it does get easier. There are other people out there. In all caps, bolded, you're not alone.

Thomas: I think so many young people feel so alone in this experience. I can get kind Of tunnel vision with like the people that I work with because a lot of them come from privileged [01:11:00] backgrounds as well. They can afford therapy with a private provider. And so there can be those limitations when I worked at the health center, the younger people were from a different demographic and so it was nice. To see the diversity. But I think for all the younger folks, you are not alone Thank you.

Thomas: believe everything you read on the internet.

Kai: No, and I think I almost want to say that to us too, as older guys is that, we're relevant. We're here. And we matter and you're not alone. We're here. I'm glad you found us Thomas.

Jackal: Me too. Me

Thomas: I am so glad I found you too. Right. Yeah. I'm like, I'm digging. I will find you. And I did.

Jackal: Nice. Thomas, what do you think we should have asked that we didn't or any famous words of wisdom, last words of wisdom that you want to share with us?

Thomas: I don't think, I think you guys were all pretty, pretty thorough in your questions. You have me thinking [01:12:00] about things that I haven't thought about for a while but I think it goes to show like. We were just talking about we are not alone, no matter what our age, we can find our people if we look, there are good people, good, solid people out there that have good intentions and just care for us, and I listening to your podcast, I feel like I know you two, I don't know you two, but I feel like I do, and I'm like, I want to talk to those guys, I don't have a book, I don't have a website, I'm not on TV, I don't have my own podcast, but I was like, those guys are cool.

Thomas: I want to talk to those guys

Kai: Wow.

Thomas: I'm just another guy over here on the East Coast who wanted to talk to other people on the West Coast about. About our stuff, our lives.

Jackal: That's so sweet. Thank you , so much for being with us. It was such a joy interviewing you. I'm so glad you reached out. really just thank You.

Kai: you.

Thomas: Very welcome. My pleasure.

Jackal: So thank [01:13:00] you for being a member. we're still here With Thomas with our bonus questions. Thomas, what do you think about being asked to identify your pronoun? Yeah.

Thomas: Well, I think a couple of things go through my head. I'm fine with, giving somebody my pronouns. I used to do a lot Of trainings where, you know, the routine became everybody would say their name and pronoun, but then, you know, we started thinking, well, we're kind of putting people on the spot to identify by a pronoun when they may not know what their pronoun anyway, for me, myself, personally, it doesn't bother me.

Thomas: to be asked My pronoun, it may have bothered me earlier on in my transition where I would be like, well, what do you think I am? I'm confusing you. So it was a little bit more anxiety provoking back then, but now it doesn't bother me. I don't really get asked it very often.

 I love names and, I would like to hear about your naming story. How did you get the name Thomas?

Thomas: [01:14:00] I don't have a great naming story. Because I'm an older person, I have to give that disclaimer. I Wanted a name that kind of went along with my brother's names, , it wasn't something it wasn't going to be jackal. And it wasn't going to be something Maybe sounded a little too progressive given somebody born in the sixties. Kai was a big name.

Jackal: He called me out, so I had to call you out, Kai.

Kai: No, when I was transitioning, there were a bunch of five year olds named Kai.

Jackal: Oh my goodness.

Kai: So it was kind of older, but unless, depending on which part of the world I lived in. So when I lived in Hawaii, Kai fit right in,

Thomas: Oh, right, right, right. Kai in Hawaii makes

Kai: asked me where I got the name cause I'm not Hawaiian. So I, that was always

Jackal: You can say Norway, because there's a lot of Kais in

Kai: I am 3 percent Norwegian.

Kai: I just found out. But back to you, Thomas. Yes. What?

Thomas: It's kind of a dud question for me because it's like, okay, it just kind of goes along with my family name. I didn't really put a lot of thought into it. it Wasn't something that was like, I was going to sit back. In fact, when I legally [01:15:00] changed my name, I had the court document in my hand and I didn't tell anybody.

Thomas: So I was like legally Thomas Joseph for months before anybody knew that I was Thomas Joseph. Like, because really who's going to know like the court clerk come to my house and say, wait, you're not using this name, nobody knows, you know? So it was like really fearful to, to introduce myself because that was like. The billboard,

Jackal: But I love those names, Thomas and Joseph, because you can have Joe, Joseph. Joey, there's all kinds of derivatives of these names. TJ, okay, you didn't have a great naming story, but you've got a great name. So,

Thomas: Yeah, and i'm uncle tommy to my nieces and nephews I only had a couple of them when I first transitioned and now i've got more So, you know, they grew up with uncle tommy didn't know aunt stacy at all. That felt Good And tommy just seemed more familial, you know what I mean? Like my brothers and sisters would have called me tommy because I call my brother robbie.

Thomas: So that just [01:16:00] felt more natural for them to call me Tommy, and I just wanted to be

Thomas: part of my family.

Kai: What Was the hesitation with expressing your name to others? Sharing that?

Thomas: because it was the billboard, it was the, Oh, you used to be this, and now you're this, so, oh, you're trans. Everybody knows. Where I, it was such an internal experience, coming out with the name was like, now everybody knows my experience. And what they do with that, who knows,

Thomas: And that Was really scary to me.

Kai: Thank you.

Jackal: Thomas Is there a time that you didn't expect to disclose and you did?

Thomas: Yeah, sometimes I'll just walk straight into it, I'll be talking about my past and I'll be like, I can, I had just met a cousin of mine who I hadn't actually met. I was in California. And of course, I knew her mother was my aunt, but I hadn't met her because they grew up over there and we grew up over here and we weren't very close.[01:17:00]

Thomas: And I was talking about my past. And then I just said, Oh, by the way, I'm trans, right? You know, that whole story, you know, where it just fell into it. She did know. But one time I was at dinner with my sister and my mom and my sister's friends. So they don't know me. And my sister started talking about when we were kids, , because it was me and her.

Thomas: And of course, yeah, we're siblings. And what was that like as kids? so, shared that she and I shared a bedroom when we were children.

Thomas: And then I Was like, you know, like, Oh, God, where are these people going to think that we shared a bedroom? That's kind of weird. I'm her brother, but we shared a bedroom.

Thomas: So then I felt outed, , in a way that I didn't want to. And she also talked about my brothers as quote, the boys. You know, the boys room.

Thomas: so I just [01:18:00] felt like, Oh, what are they thinking? Are they thinking about it at all? I just kind of sat there like a deer in the headlights.

Jackal: I can just feel The knot in your chest

Thomas: Right. And so I felt like I was outed, but maybe I was only outed in my head because I didn't like confirm it because these are people I didn't want them to know that I was trans because it was. Yeah. Irrelevant, and not their business.

Jackal: It's funny, I actually, as a FB child shared a bedroom with my brother for several years actually until puberty because we were four kids in two bedrooms, three bedroom household. And I was the youngest and my other sisters were closer in age and stuff.

Jackal: And so me and my brother had an age gap and that was it. So I honestly could say that I shared a brother shared a bedroom with my brother. The thing about that is having somebody referred to this other bedroom as the boys room juxtaposes [01:19:00] against you sharing with your sister as what was that called the non binary room.

Thomas: right, like the Catch all, we had so many kids,

Jackal: the other room,

Thomas: yeah,

Kai: Did you talk to her about it afterwards? Yeah,

Thomas: don't think I did, it's a complicated relationship and, there would be like this kind of all, I'm blaming her and it would be all about Her and I just didn't want to engage, because it was like, I'm not having dinner with my sister a lot.

Thomas: I was traveling. It was a visit. We're not really swimming in the same friendship circle. So I don't give a shit, so I didn't really follow up on it was more of those roll my eyes kind of, in the moment it was like a, but afterwards it was just like, whatever,

Kai: it's going back to The thing you were describing earlier about people just not really understanding, like people who are cisgender cannot understand what it's like to have a reference made that might identify in something so deeply personal about [01:20:00] our

Jackal: all of the Tiny nuances of that. You know, like she could have talked about a bazillion things in your childhood that would not have had to do with something that was nuanced enough to suggest. AFAB

Thomas: right?

Jackal: right? Like this thing about like sharing a bedroom. It's like just that subtle thing that you know,

Thomas: That I know,

Jackal: Oh,

Thomas: also was like, yeah, the two girls in the bedroom, we used to like, play together all the time as, we'd had these imaginary people that we would be that were two girls, and it's like it's loaded,

Kai: It's awkward, too. So many of us have joked about wanting to have some sort of code so we can communicate with each other. When you don't personally know someone but you know or suspect they're transmasc, when you see or meet them, how do you typically respond?

Thomas: I don't,

Thomas: I, you know, I just had this experience two nights ago, One of my, [01:21:00] wife's colleagues husband, maybe is trans, maybe, you know, so we, we saw them, they were at an event that we were at, and so, maybe, I couldn't, I did drop like, breadcrumb and said that I used to work at this LGBTQ health agency, and maybe then that would maybe pull stuff out, and then he mentioned that he went to this. support group that was at the DC Center, which is an LGBTQ community center. But that, that's because you're gay, it's like an, Oh, I was so close, but you're a gay man. And so that's why you were there. And I thought like, Oh, maybe he'll come out, but I'm not going to come out. But who knows?

Thomas: He doesn't know I'm trans. Maybe he's trans. Maybe he's not trans. There was a guy at the Apple store that helped us with our computer one time and he had a little trans flag or something necklace on. And I said, I like your necklace.

Thomas: [01:22:00] And he Said, Oh, thanks. And he tucked it behind his shirt.

Kai: Aw.

Thomas: And I thought, Oh, you know?

Kai: I had a, an interaction at a coffee shop the other day in my little town, and there was somebody that had a protect trans kid shirt on and they were sitting at, don pronouns. they were sitting At the table next to us and I said, Hey, I really like your shirt. And they said. Oh, wow. That means so much of me, so much of to me to hear that because in this area, in this town, sometimes I get a lot of flack for it.

Kai: And I said, well, I was one. So I really appreciate that you have that shirt on and they said, Oh my God, thank you. And I'm having chest surgery next week. And I was

Thomas: Oh, wow. That is so awesome.

Kai: you. Yeah. It was such a nice thing. And I don't typically do that, but I was like, fuck it.

Kai: Right. And I want to just connect with my sibling, just say we're here and you're brave to wear that shirt in this little town. You know?

Jackal: Actually that

Thomas: so I have

Jackal: almost made me cry. That [01:23:00] almost brought tears to my eyes. I can feel it in my nose. Like that's really touching.

Thomas: You're

Kai: No, seriously. It was the best coffee I ever had after that too.

Thomas: So what would you do? If you suspect somebody's trans, but

Jackal: This is our interview. I'm sorry. Like we're the ones asking the questions right now.

Thomas: Wait a minute. After season three, don't we get to ask you the questions?

Jackal: Oh Yeah. No that's fine. I would actually put it in my little mailbox, right? With a little trans flag.

Kai: ha You can carry the mailbox around.

Jackal: I'd carry the mailbox around.

Thomas: That's right.

Jackal: I think that would be a great little, I, we need an STP pen, pin, that's a mailbox with a trans flag on it.

Kai: have lots of little STP stickers. I should tell you I should put them around, I don't know. ha

Jackal: That's not the same as a mailbox.

Kai: no I want a mailbox

Thomas: lose the mailbox.[01:24:00]

Kai: This round of question is highlighting that we have these issues too. And these uncertainties too, about how to think on our feet when we suspect or know, how do you feel Thomas, when you get clocked by another trans masc person?

Thomas: Right.

Kai: Short.

Thomas: I've had so many, we've had discussions with other people and other people's partners about this one woman who's partnered with a trans person. She said that You can clock trans guys because they have small hands, they're generally short, and they use the formal version of the name. So they're Thomas's or Michael's or James's. And I thought, really? You know, and like how small are my hands compared to other people's hands? So I don't know if I go for that. But I don't know that I get clocked now. I don't think so. I wish I was! I wish somebody would come up to me and say, Are you a trans guy?

Thomas: So

Kai: Well, let's, yeah, that gets into our next question. So, how would you suggest another person who knows you or knows of you approach you if they want to connect because they're [01:25:00] trans?

Thomas: I guess it Depends on the environment situation, but just come out with it. Right? Just fucking go for it. Like you did, Kai, with that person.

Jackal: yeah, I'm going to caveat that with check for safety, but I think that's really, I love Kai's story and I love that kind of energy of just come out,

Thomas: Yeah. In a respectful way, right? You're not going to shout across the room. Yo, are you trans too?

Jackal: I can't remember who it was, but one of our guests actually said that Rocco said that he was at an airport and somebody said that like, Hey, you know, I recognize you and he's just like, I'm at the airport, dude.

Kai: not the time or place. Yeah, exactly.

Thomas: And also, I mean, it can feel really uncomfortable. Like I can remember one time I was at work and there was this group of folks that came in to do a little presentation or whatever. And we were all having lunch. It was the break. We're having lunch. I was in line to get my lunch. And this [01:26:00] guy comes up to me and says, Hey, Okay. I wanted to say hi to you, and I'm like in line, there's people in front of me, there's people behind me, and I'm like, why is that? And he says, because I'm trans and you're trans. And I just felt like,

Jackal: And I'm never speaking to you again,

Thomas: And so somebody outed me to him, and he felt like he could just come up and start chatting with me in front of all these other people who some may know some may not know and I was just like, mortified. I couldn't,

Kai: it's hard to describe that, you don't want to quash someone's excitement and desire to connect with you because all the things you want to be there for people and, but timing, just perspective taking and timing, if you work with work colleagues in a public place, don't shout out like, Hey, I know it's so

Jackal: I'm trans and you're trans too. It's like, we're not in romper room,

Kai: and colleagues, don't Out your coworkers.

Thomas: God, isn't that, well, [01:27:00] you know what? You said something interesting. Well, you said something about, working with a lot of gay men and, there's this certain, path they get, ? I noticed. Like, to be a little bit more forthcoming with compliments or catty comments or things like that or even disclosure, and I'm like, no, you don't get to do that.

Thomas: That's not Something For you to share. I hear you trying to draw community and make connections. Yeah, but that's not, I'll make the connection, or you can say, Hey, this other person, or, but that would be outing them. So it's like really.

Jackal: That's a good training in and of itself, I think, because I think that a lot of times, we are excited to expand our community, expand our networks, get to know each other, break our isolations. And yet, we don't, we're not skilled in doing it or how to do it, how to do it appropriately.

Jackal: And so I think that our allies and ourselves need [01:28:00] more training in how to do this stuff because, like you said , if you see somebody, we either just don't do it,

Thomas: Right.

Jackal: perpetuates our own isolation. You know, or we do something like, I'm trans, you're trans too, you know,

Thomas: Shuts everything down.

Jackal: yeah, it's like the polar opposites and neither is helpful, right?

 We haven't really Been recognized, Jackal, in an airport or anything like that. So we haven't

Thomas: Not yet.

Kai: of that happen.

Jackal: might happen soon for me, you know, you never know. I travel a lot.

Kai: All right, we got one more question. How can we as transmasc elders be more supportive of the newer generation of trans and non binary persons?

Thomas: as trans Elders. I mean, I have a lot of answers, right? I have a lot of ideas, but I think really talking to cis people, right? Talking to cis people about the trans experience. You know, I think there's a lot of [01:29:00] resources out there for young people, and we can be resources ourselves, but also being able to advocate for the trans community as a whole. Being able to talk to my sister about, no, you don't do it like that.

Thomas: Or being able to talk to the neighbor about, yeah, that's a trans flag, and this is why I'm waving it today, Opening other people's awareness so that they're welcoming the younger generation as they come up as like, okay, yeah, it's a thing. And I think it's becoming, like, not a thing, you know, like, there's queer people everywhere.

Thomas: A lot of young people are like, yeah, everybody's queer, you know, like, whatever. But I think talking to people our age and a little bit younger. That like, yeah, trans people exist, and we're, we watch Netflix too, and my dog did poop on your yard, and I'm getting it. Stand by. We're just regular human beings, you know.

Kai: How can we be more supportive of our transmasculine brothers, both of our generation, older and younger?

Kai: How do we break our own isolation whatever generation?

Thomas: podcasts Like [01:30:00] this, right here, you're doing it. I think this is, Fucking awesome. And I'm going to be in a probably better mood today because of it.

Kai: Me too.

Thomas: and I think it, it requires effort, right? Like most things, connection requires effort and action. And reaching out to people, connecting with people checking in, just to check in, fuck, you know, because some of us, I mean, I have a partner here, some of us leave very isolated, Lives.

Thomas: And so just checking in with each other, having a zoom call, and just having coffee together across the country. I think it's really important. There's only three of us here today, but like finding meetings where there's more of us and sharing stories and laugh, you know, successes and struggles.

Thomas: But, like, as long as we're breathing air and we can communicate, we need to do it. We need to communicate,

Kai: I just want to say thank you. I am a closet birder And a downy [01:31:00] woodpecker male just landed on the suet outside my window and has red hair. And so as a redhead, my hair is now mostly gray. I just want to say, I see you, brother. I see you, all parts of you, Thomas, and I

Thomas: Thank you! Thank you,

Kai: and the male bird is Fabulous. And Dashing, so are you. Thank you for all of your storytelling and sharing and vulnerability today and your humor. Thank you so much for reaching out to us.

Jackal: Yeah. I'm so Grateful to both of you. You're both amazing people. Like I said, I don't know you, but just hearing you and how you interact with your guests, it's just like, these guys are warm and inviting and I think I can talk to them and they'll be nice.

Jackal: You can keep in touch, like, don't

Thomas: that would be wonderful. I would love that.

Thomas: A letter will come into your trans mailbox. I really have like two trans guy friends and that's a lot, right? Because some of us have zero, but I don't get to see them very often,

Kai: come out To the West Coast

Thomas: yeah, apparently [01:32:00] that's where everybody is.

Jackal: , I'm not there, I get jealous when Kai invites everybody and they're like, I'll be there next week.

Kai: We're lucky.

Kai: REFLECTIONS

Kai: All right. Jekyll. So we just interviewed Thomas. We had the pleasure of interviewing Thomas. How do you think it went? What are you taking away from that?

Jackal: Man. He was such a sweetheart, There were so many pieces that I do think were like threads that we really could have pulled on and threads that I think are important for us, um, as a community to start talking about. He offered like a real richness in things like talking about the name you know how I feel about like. name and not calling my past, a mistake or anything like that. And I really liked the way he framed his like, Previous name to his life now, and the force that person gave him to move forward into his new self, , I thought was really beautiful. And there was other things [01:33:00] about, our trepidations when we, feel like we might be outed. There's this trans flag. And I think that that's a really big thing that I think needs, we need to explore. Why do we feel like, why can I have a Black Lives Matter flag?

Jackal: And somebody's like, I don't know what that flag means. What does it mean? And I'm like, it's a Black Lives Matter flag, it's not a big deal. I'm an ally, it's fine. But if it's a trans flag, and somebody says, what's that flag? And all of a sudden, I'm scared to tell you what it is, because I might it's Be connected with that flag that I am connected to.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: I don't know, there's just some, there's just things there that I wanted to explore more and I know we only have a certain amount of time and stuff but I thought it was really rich. I really enjoyed him I'm so glad he reached out. What about you?

Kai: I agree with you. I think we could have taken the conversation in many directions and we were pretty good at [01:34:00] staying within the frame because it could have gone on for a long time. He's a great conversationalist and really great storyteller and very thoughtful. The thing that's really stuck with me is his discussion about being seen and wanting to be seen, whether that's his queerness. He didn't use the word erased or invisible, but just the fact that he's married to a cis woman that, and he has kids, he appears hetero, like the world is seeing him as a heterosexual man, and that sort of erases his queerness, and he wishes he would seen, seen more as A queer person, but I think he also said something about that, wanting to be recognized by his own people, the trans community being seen and how we're able to somehow do that because yes, we have differences, but we have a shared history and we walk through the world as something that isn't confined by gender norms.

Kai: And I think that's really beautiful, and I, I really can relate to his sense of isolation that he experiences, even though [01:35:00] he's peripherally connected sometimes or not, and how secure he feels some days versus others. I just thought his description of being human was really, really beautiful.

Kai: I thought that was great. And I, I really think checking in on each other is important. Mm hmm. Mm

Jackal: really great at Like you said, humanizing, that up and down, that like, sometimes I feel completely proud and completely out and feel like confident. And I can just talk to anybody I meet on the bus, that I'm trans and I don't give a shit. Right. And it's not that I don't give a shit.

Jackal: It's that I don't, I'm not afraid

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: in that moment. Like I'm confident enough and there's other days where I feel that knot in my chest that somebody just said I shared a room with my sister,

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: I feel both of those things, you know what, I really appreciate it.

Jackal: And I know a lot of our guests say this, but I really appreciated how much he appreciated [01:36:00] us and our No, I think that that's really, it was really sweet. Like he was so feeling so isolated

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jackal: he listened to our podcast and loved it and then reached out so that he could be on it and share his, his story and break more of his isolation,

Kai: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Jackal: Just, I appreciate that kind of circle and I appreciate being part of that circle.

Kai: He struck me as just very genuine, , speaking from the heart. In a very caring, thoughtful way. Again, it's that special bond we have as brothers, siblings, , wherever you are and however you identify. And I think that's such an immense privilege to be a part of this community and to reconnect with our siblings and brothers. I'm just really glad that he reached out to us and thanks for doing the show, Jackal

Jackal: Thank you, Kai. Really have a great rest of your day.

Kai: All right. You too.

Kai: TRANSPONDER/TRANSJOY

Adam: And now it's time for Transponder. [01:37:00] Hey, so for those of you who don't know, we're changing up the Transponder question to be a Transponder moment of trans joy in the news. So, if many of you don't know, uh, I have been looking for a job, I now have a job. But last year, I got invited to a second interview with the Missouri Department of Education, and they asked if I wanted to move there.

Adam: And this was days after I had read that the Missouri government was doing a tip line for submitting complaints and concerns about gender affirming care and basically asking people to turn people in if they thought that they might be transgender. So I politely declined. And I just got a bit of news.

Adam: It's, uh, it's a bit old. It's from last year as well. But it says that the government of Missouri had to take down their website of submitting complaints and [01:38:00] concerns because transgender people started spamming it with the script from Bee Movie, the most raunchiest lines from movies that they could find.

Adam: Shrek porn. The website was closed down after spamming tips, forms, uh, colloquially referred to by the detractors as snitch lines. And this type of spamming, um, and trolling is a type of trans resistance. So that's a pretty incredible success for our trans brothers and sisters and non binary siblings who took it upon themselves to.

Adam: get rid of this snitch line by spamming it and trolling it. Uh, another piece of news is that there are over 90, 000 satisfied responses in a trans survey stating the early The early results of the [01:39:00] 2022 U. S. Transgender Surveys are in, and they are stunning. Transgender individuals who have transitioned and are living as another gender, only 3 percent report lower satisfaction rates, with 79 percent stating they are, quote, a lot more satisfied, unquote, after transitioning.

Adam: That number is even higher for transgender people receiving gender affirming care, 98 percent of which transgender individuals taking hormones are more satisfied with their lives. These numbers challenge prevailing narratives in anti trans media that transgender people experience significant degrees of regret or resentment towards their transition, including those published in the New York Times.

Adam: Last weekend. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram Please contact Kira at our Instagram page at trans masculine podcast We enjoy your comments and look [01:40:00] forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight expertise and heartfelt stories We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you.

Adam: Good job today, Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience.

Adam: We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority. In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids.

Adam: We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, [01:41:00] thrilled to be one small part of our community. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, we monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up.

Adam: We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. As we enter season four, we are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests.

Adam: We do not represent any outside entity. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know. Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. Help podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform.

Adam: You can find us on Instagram, transmaskingpodcast. On X, [01:42:00] formerly Twitter. At podcast stealth on YouTube stealth, the trans masculine podcast, and be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast. com. Thank you for joining us until next time.