Jonathan, who grew up in London, England (as well as Saudi Arabia), transitioned when he was 16 years old in the late 2000s. As a teen, he was blessed with a supportive mum who was able to work with him to afford him gender affirming hormone treatment, and he has lived as male for most of his teens and all of his adulthood. Subject of Channel 4 documentary 'The Boy Who was Born A Girl', Jonathan's early medical and social transition was documented on national television which was later turned into a book of the same name that he co-wrote with his mum. 

Since then, the landscape of trans politics, activism and social rights and acceptance have changed in the UK, with a subsequent 14-year long Conservative government and vocal gender critical spokespeople creating an arguably hostile environment for a new generation of trans youth and trans adults. Jonathan continues to be active in 'behind the scenes' activism, supporting the trans-led youth and families charity Gendered Intelligence through their families sessions, speaking to parents and relatives of trans young people about his experiences. A former service user of the charity's vital youth spaces, Jonathan was a member of various other youth groups, from grass-roots internet forum Queer Youth Network, and the charity Mermaids (which has been hypervisible in UK tabloids for advocating for the support of young trans children). 

As a mixed-race Jew of Nigerian and Spanish descent, Jonathan is also passionate about being an open trans man in Jewish spaces (both queer Jewish spaces and mainstream Jewish spaces) and hilighting the holy relationship between transness and Jewishness, while also advocating for queers and trans people actively leading kehillot and sharing their learning. 

Jonathan lives a quiet and unremarkable life with his cis gay male partner in the Jewish enclave of North-West London and has worked in non-profits since the age of 18. In his spare time, he runs, snacks, and listens to music while dabbling in creative fantasy writing. 

Jonathan Transcript

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back to Stealth A Trans Masculine Podcast. I'm Jackal. And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000.

Kai: We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices. The name of our show highlights two important facts, that one, for our generation we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence, and that due to that, Our stories are very often overlooked.

Jackal: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community. We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us [00:01:00] has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways.

Jackal: humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates. We push for human rights and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition.

Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms. including YouTube. These are trying times and we want to acknowledge that here in the states and throughout the world there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities.

Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website transmasculinepodcast. com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living [00:02:00] community. We are healthy.

We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved and we welcome you to our stories. We want to give a content warning for this episode. There is talk about suicide and mental health issues. Remember you can go to our. website, transmasculinepodcast. com for resources for crisis lines, including the Trevor Project, Trans Lifeline, and Suicide Prevention Lifeline, transmasculinepodcast.com.

Shawn: Hey, this is Shawn Aaron, he, him, his. And I'm here to tell you about them boys podcast. I'm the host of Dem Boys podcast. And as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color. As we share our transition stories, the podcast not only amplifies the voices of trans men of color, but it raises awareness and conversations around our lived experiences.

You [00:03:00] can listen to the podcast by going to them boys. podcast. That's D E M B O I S dot org forward slash podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next episode. Hi.

Jackal: Yeah, I pulled my groin watching the Olympics. Well, you took one for the team. Team USA. Yeah. Yeah, it's tender. No, I don't know how I did it, but I thought it would be funny to tell you that I did it watching the Olympics because you know, Simone Biles, man, some of the things she does would, does pull my groin just watching it.

Yeah. She's super humans. Yeah. I mean, it's been so much fun to watch. Yeah. What else have you been watching besides the fantastic Simone Biles, who is [00:04:00] so physically above the rest of the field and amazing. And, but like mentally, man, like mentally. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I appreciate her talking about her struggles after Tokyo and stuff.

Yeah. I also want to give a shout out to Sunni Lee, you know, like she was the all around gold medalist in Tokyo, uh, after Simone, uh, dropped out and then, uh, and, you know, took the silver and all around this year. And then the bronze in the, the uneven. So like that was, you know, she's, she's quite an athlete as well.

So, uh, you know, shout out to team USA, especially the women's gymnastics. The other things that I watch, uh, I have watched a little bit of the men's gymnastics. Uh, I watched a clip on, I only watch on YouTube because I don't have cable and I'm not paying for direct TV or Peacock. So, uh, Frederick Patrick.

Um, is a young 20 year old, uh, African American male [00:05:00] gymnast and phenomenal, phenomenal, and a force to watch out for in future Olympics. If he doesn't, uh, get a medal this year, he is definitely on track for, uh, getting a medal sometime in the future. And, um. What else? I, one of the things that I, I, I watched for my sporty spice, I watched the four, 400, uh, race, uh, where the U.

S. women's team just like blew everybody else out of the water. In fact, it looked like it was a race for second, third, and fourth, uh, more than anything else. But the thing that I really have been enjoying is synchronized diving. What do you, what do you like about it? Well, okay, so let me start from the beginning, you know, like I was a kid in the 70s and Mark Spitz was the no no no.

Yeah. I know. Yeah. Well, he was this he was a swimmer. Mark Spitz is a swimmer Yeah, I'm talking about [00:06:00] Greg Luganis. Yeah Greg Luganis was a diver. Maybe that was in the eighties. Uh, maybe that was in the eighties. I don't remember. Um, but so I kind of got into diving when I was a kid, you know, Oh, that's, you know, those are really cool.

And this year I haven't watched any regular diving, but I've watched the synchronized diving and it's just phenomenal. Like that they can really like do one, two, three, and that from like bouncing off the platform into the dive. Just perfectly synchronized for me is pretty fun, pretty phenomenal. Like that's pretty amazing.

I have really enjoyed it and China one and, uh, congratulations to them. Uh, I watched both the male and female ones and they are just phenomenal. I loved them. Yeah. What about you? What do you watch? Yeah, I did watch that too. And I saw, um, the American women and then the Chinese who won, they were amazing.

And I also saw Tom Daley [00:07:00] when, uh, I think he got silver this year with his partner and his husband was in the stands with his kids. Super cute. So he's, he's a sweet pea. I watched the track and field for sure. It just started in the last couple of days. So, um, I like the longer distance. So above 800 meters.

So there's a 1500 meter and then a 5, 000 meter and a 10, 000 meter. Those are my absolute favorite. And then I like the steeplechase at the 10, 000 meter and they set a new record and they're just some really phenomenal runners. I just love to watch them run. I don't know why. Oh, I don't know why me, the runner myself.

Yeah, it is beautiful. But I mean, I could just picture you like, I'm running behind you. I am I'm supporting Team USA. Turtle Turtle will run the run the way race. Yeah, I you know how those memes where it's like, what I what I how I see myself running versus how I look running, you know, or any of those things.

I do not look like a [00:08:00] runner per se. But, uh, I really loved, I love watching that. And I've also gotten into the soccer. I got into rugby, um, but more soccer and the women's team is kicking butt. And then, um, I just love watching them and that, but the most relaxing thing that I watch is surfing. Oh, Mr. Hawaii there.

I know I could watch it all day. I just love, and they're in Tahiti and they show the mountains and it's one of the most dangerous spots in the world to surf. This particular reef is so shallow, but they are just so amazing. It's so amazing. Yeah. Uh, I could watch it all day. I also have what I would watched one little clip of, uh, skateboarding as well, which, you know, like coming from California, both you and I like, uh, surfing and skateboarding is like a big thing and yeah.

And it's been, I mean, I only watched the women's and they, I mean, it's like this, this thing. They're so cute. Tiny, little like 17-year-old girl, like getting a gold medal. It's like, cute. [00:09:00] Congratulations. Cute. I know. It's so cute. It's so amazing. Are you gonna watch break dancing, Chuck? It's the first year that they have break dancing.

I will watch it on YouTube when it comes out. . Yeah. Um, but I have, I'm excited. Yeah. I was thinking about it, like, how, how are they gonna score it? It might, and so I was thinking if it's gonna be like a floor routine in gymnastics where you have to incorporate certain elements. Mm-Hmm. . So think that that's sort of.

Not really how breakdancing is supposed to go. Right. It's essential free for, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, if they have routines or what, you know, I'm sure they have dialed it in and they're just going to crush what they do, but that's just, I'm really excited to watch that. Yeah. Well, I can tell you, you know, like even the street performers, like they have routines, right.

They have like, and, and typically for breakdancing, it's like segments. So like you have like certain things that you can do, and then you put them together in different ways right and you know it's about flowing from one to [00:10:00] another so I think that they will have their routine that they have practiced and practiced and practiced.

You know, and kind of like Simone Biles like she didn't do her. Signature her or her new move on the uneven bars. But, uh, you know, they might have some new move that they're going to try to do or not, depending on how they're feeling. Yeah. Yeah. That freestyle stuff. Like they, yeah, they have their own, their own, uh, creative.

Moves and just, um, things that they, that set them apart, you know, I'm looking forward to watching that. Yeah, me too. Uh, we'll, we'll check back in and see how many, uh, golds and overalls we have. We're, we're, you know, we have, uh, the most medals overall so far, but we're only second place in, in gold. So we'll see, uh, we'll see how team USA does.

Yeah. In the next episode of stealth, a transmasculine podcast and shout out to the French swimmer, Marshawn. That guy is just crushing it. He is so [00:11:00] amazing. So, uh, and then the U S swimmer, Katie Ledecky and others, you know, it's been really great. I did watch the, the, um, I can't, I don't know what it's called, but it's when they have the relay and it's male, female and they have the two women and two men, it was so close.

I haven't watched it yet. Oh my God. You've got to watch it. You've got to watch it. I'm not even going to tell you how it ends. You know, but it was so close. I think, I think that's where I, uh, pulled my grimace. Yeah. I really am. I'm glad we have something exciting to focus on. It feels hopeful. And then one last thing, get out and vote.

Oh yeah. We've got it last month, but yeah, like new hopeful candidate for president in the U S and really feeling a lot better about that. So go Kamala. All right, to wrap today's interview is with Jonathan Jonathan grew up in London, England, and a bit in Saudi Arabia and Transitioned when he was 16 years old as a teen He [00:12:00] was blessed with a supportive mother who was able to work with him to access gender affirming care and as such He lived as male for most of his teens and all of his adulthood As the subject of Channel 4's documentary, The Boy Who Was Born a Girl, Jonathan's early medical and social transition was documented on national television and subsequently turned into a book of the same name which Jonathan co wrote with his mother.

Since the time of his transition in the late 2000s, the landscape of trans politics has changed dramatically in the UK, with a 14 year long conservative government and vocal, gender critical spokespeople creating an outright hostile environment for trans youth and adults. Jonathan continues to participate in behind the scenes activism, supporting the trans led charity Gendered Intelligence through their family focused sessions, speaking to parents and family members of trans youths about his own experience growing up.

As a mixed race Jew of Nigerian and Spanish descent, Jonathan is also passionate about being openly trans within Jewish [00:13:00] spaces, both queer and mainstream, and using his positionality to highlight the holy relationship between transness and Jewishness. He actively advocates for queer and trans Jews to step into leadership roles within their congregations where they can share their unique perspectives.

Jonathan lives a quiet and unremarkable life with his cis gay male partner in the Jewish enclave of Northwest London where he continues to work in the non profit sector, as he has since he was 18. In his spare time, he runs, snacks, and listens to music while dabbling in creative fantasy writing.

Jonathan's tranniversary is 2009, the year that saw Barack Obama sworn in as the first black president of the United States. But he inherited quite the economic mess as the country and the world at large continued to quake with the aftershocks of the Great Recession spurred by the collapse of the U. S.

housing market the year prior. American military involvement continued in Afghanistan and Iraq, and global concerns increased over the Iranian nuclear threat. Swine flu, a. [00:14:00] k. a. H1N1, gave us a taste of what was to come in 2020, being designated as the first pandemic declared by the WHO since 1969. Air travel had its ups and downs, quite literally, with the disappearance of Air France France.

Flight 447 somewhere off the northeast coast of Brazil, with 228 people on board, considered the worst aviation disaster since 2001. But a few months prior, also saw the miraculous emergency landing of US Airways Flight 1549 on the Hudson River by Captain Chelsea B. Sullenberger, aka Sully. Bernie Madoff pled guilty to 11 counts of fraud, money laundering, perjury, and theft, and Michael Jackson was found unconscious in his home and subsequently pronounced dead at the age of 50.

In LGBTQ news, 2009 got off to a good start with same sex marriage becoming legalized in Norway and Iceland welcoming its first openly gay prime minister. The world's first openly gay head of government. Lady Gaga came out as bisexual, and Chaz Bono [00:15:00] announced his transition. California tried, unsuccessfully, to overturn Prop 8.

Meanwhile, Congress finally lifted the HIV travel ban, and passed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, expanding on the 1969 federal hate crime law to include crimes motivated by a victim's actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability. In sports news, the Pittsburgh Steelers defeated the Arizona Cardinals at the Super Bowl, and the Yankees defeated the Philadelphia Phillies at the World Series.

James Cameron's Avatar hit the silver screen and raked it in at the box office, while Danny Boyle's Slumdog Millionaire took home the Oscar for Best Picture. Top Billboard hits included The Black Eyed Peas Boom Boom Pow and I Got a Feeling, and Lady Gaga's Poker Face and Just Dance. But, as usual, we'll be leading in this episode with more music from resident singer songwriter Eli Conley.

Gotta put on a full face of makeup[00:16:00]

Gotta match my earrings to my belt I gotta style my hair just right Squeeze into heels that feel so tight I gotta be better than myself

I scroll my phone while making breakfast

Perfect pictures flashing by. I choose a filter for my post. I pick the one that hides the most. Tryin to look better than myself. Don't let them see me. Cause I don't think that I would measure up. Don't let them see me, because being me is never quiet [00:17:00] enough. So welcome to season five of Stealth the Transmasculine podcast.

We're here with Jonathan. Hi Jonathan. How you doing today? I'm good. Thank you. No, thank you. How did you get to be on our show? A lot of times we have guests that we've known for a while, but, uh, I hear you reached out to us. Uh, what inspired you to do that? I think, yeah, no, I, it's amazing that this exists because I think things for older trans guys or older trans masculine people are few and far between.

And I mean, we'll get into this by transition quite young and, and growing and moving. You know, I'm now past 30, but I think a lot of the trans guys who I see around me and often represented on social media are late teens and 20s, so I think it's really exciting that there is that platform and voice where older trans guys can be, can share their stories and wisdom and life experiences and be celebrated.

So I just think it's so [00:18:00] valuable and at this stage of my life. That's the connection that I'm seeking. It's a specific older trans guy connection. Awesome. That I'm really sensing is missing. So, yeah. And how did you learn about transmasculine identities? Because it is so far and few between. Yeah, how did I learn?

So I think I came into consciousness. That, you know, trans men existed, probably back in 2002? Um, so I was born in 1992, so, maths, I was ten ish, maybe. And yeah, there was, uh, Stephen Whittle, I think, is a very well known, um, trans guy, trailblazer, uh, UK guy, who still does so much for the trans community in the UK.

We've been trying to get him on our show. Yeah, I um, I don't know him personally. I mean, I've probably like ancient Facebook friends with him from like back and back in the day but yeah, [00:19:00] super respect everything that he did with press for change and just the landscape of trans stuff in the UK is just different without trans people just Doing the work, you know, unthanked, just around their day jobs, just trying to struggle for trans rights and legal recognition in the UK.

So I think there was a documentary called Make Me a Man, because I think it was following his phalloplasty, and I distinctly remember the phalloplasty element of it, because I remember even at a young age, and I think it was 2002, I was like, Uh, I, I thought like, I had some consciousness of drag queens and trans women to some extent obviously not fully understanding what it was, but I was like, huh, so, like in my mind I was like, oh, like, women can turn into men.

Like, I, obviously I was, I wasn't fully understanding the nuances of it, but I was like, this is really [00:20:00] interesting. This is different. And I remember, I remember like, I was going down the stairs at a, at a, like, train station. I was still thinking about it. I was like, huh, that's really interesting what they've done to their bodies.

Like, just a curiosity. So that was kind of my first, like, inkling that trans men existed. And, um, I came out about. six ish years later. And that was kind of, yeah, I've been identifying as bi and gay throughout my school years. But I didn't, yeah, I didn't know anything about trans people, really. It just didn't form any part of my knowledge until, like, yeah, I started going to, like, LGBTQ youth groups and actually met face to face with other trans people.

Um, I remember going to a youth group called Queer Youth Network, which was a self organizing group of, uh, queer young people in London and the Southeast. [00:21:00] Um, and there was like butch trans women and like young trans boys and like just every flavor of just like nerdy trans people. We all got together, partied, had picnics, just some, a lot of us were doing activism, going to protests, going to prides with like homemade banners and marching in it.

And I just got such a sense of the diversity of trans people. You know, that was definitely not one thing a trans person was. It was just like so many different life experiences. And so I was just like, Oh, maybe I can be trans. Maybe I am trans. Because I think a year before that I was exploring with my gender and just not really seeing myself as a woman in the future.

And in that period of my life, we did like a drawing exercise and it was like, draw yourself how you see yourself in the future. And I remember like, I drew a person [00:22:00] and I just looked at this person's face. I was like, this person's not a woman actually. At that time I was identifying as like a bi, as like a bi.

Girl. Like, remember I drew loads of hair over the person's face to, like, make it an androgynous person. I already understood that I was genderqueer, genderfluid. But actually seeing diverse trans people, being like, Oh, you're a butch trans woman. You know, you're like, just like a goth trans guy. Like, we just all, like, got a sense of who we, who we all were.

And yeah, I kind of started transitioning from that point. I'm just thinking about imagining a future for yourself and many of us have talked about when we were kids just having some sense of feeling different or, uh, not fitting into a binary, um, in many ways. And it's interesting to think about growing up and what you imagined yourself to be.

And I don't know if that happened for you, Jekyll, where you just [00:23:00] imagined yourself as Growing old as a woman. I never did either. Like I never imagined myself getting married to a dude as a woman or having a baby out of my body or anything like that was always very boy, boy. How about, how about you Jekyll?

My life kind of ended after 25. Like I didn't see myself growing up, you know, like I didn't see myself growing old at all. So, you know, I couldn't envision my life after a certain age. Like I was like, that was, It was just something that didn't occur to me that I actually could grow old. And so what old looked like was there was no imagination even for it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I really appreciate you bringing that up, Jonathan. I just think it, it just really hit a note and. I think it has been a consistent theme for folks is that it's really beautiful for you to be able to imagine a future for yourself, you know, as a young person that I can't imagine it was easy for you to grapple with this stuff.

So appreciate you letting me jump in and [00:24:00] let us get back. Yeah. So I just wanted to ask, because here you are 10 years old finding out about trans masculine identities. You know, you're, you're transitioning 1516. or having the, having a sense of your identity. How do you think your social standings impacted your ability to transition?

I think obviously I was very privileged. Um, a mixed race. So my mom is half Nigerian, half Spanish. Um, the main thing is that I had her support. Um, my parents are divorced. I lived with my mom, but my mom was very accepting and very supportive and very pro, like, affirming. Um, I know with the rise of, you know, gender critical stuff, there's lots of parents who pivot the other way and will not affirm or accept their kids, especially now with a lot of fear mongering about young people transitioning medically.

[00:25:00] Um, but I was very, you know, and I also knew what I wanted. I knew when I think I may have come out at 15. And by the time I was 16, I was on hormones. Um, which is. a privilege that not a lot of, you know, trans people get, um, especially very young. Um, so yeah, essentially I had, I think the most, yeah, helpful thing was the support of my mom and the fact that she advocated for me as hard as she did and pushed me to do it.

To the get me medical treatment as hard as she did because she just she could have just said no, this is too difficult I'm not battling doctors. Wait until you're 18 that could have been her response. Um, also we went privately initially So there's a middle class kind of fight Background that we have with financial resources, even if it is, you know Just for a few appointments, but a lot of families can't afford that So yeah, definitely the reason why I was able to transition [00:26:00] is because of that socioeconomic background and because of just having family support.

Awesome. Thank you. Since you're a young person and your mom is your greatest champion and you're trying to figure out how to navigate this healthcare system and access medical care towards transition to care, what were some of the things you were told about how to live your life as a trans guy? You're a young person, you're It's so interesting because I think now, like, a lot of trans guys will face kind of, or maybe, like, see a lot of, like, other trans guy influencers on social media and try and model themselves after them and try and look like they're more of the same beliefs or do the same sorts of stuff.

But actually, like, I was, well, Facebook had just started. There was a lot of us on Facebook. That was kind of the only, Thing that existed and they were all your real life friends, so you would see [00:27:00] them outside of Facebook, so I think it was less pressure maybe to fit in or being less of that sort of being told you need to do x, y, and z to be a proper trans guy or whatever.

I think definitely once I started like on Tumblr or Twitter or Instagram, there's more of that pressure in how to conform and how to be a trans guy, masculine or whatever. But I hung around with loads of feminine trans guys and trans guys are all like Subcultures and sexualities as well, like, dating other trans guys, dating cis guys, so it was like, I didn't feel a lot of pressure, and that's You know, or I wasn't told, like, actually, this is how to live your life.

We were all kind of figuring it out at the same time, I think. And there's a lot of, and still, obviously, now, there's a lot of just shared knowledge, you [00:28:00] know. If you're going through the gender clinic, like, do this, say this at your appointment. I think that pressure really came in when we were trying to access NHS care, because obviously that's the point where you need to conform to what the gender doctors want you to kind of say about masculinity and present a very binary, stereotypical almost, view of yourself in order to access whatever you want, surgeries or hormones.

So I think we were all, all, all wary that a lot of pressure was coming from medical providers. And that we had to kind of be more masculine, be more typical. What do you remember sharing, like, tips about when you go in? Or what do you remember the doctors asking you? I think we all had doctors who were more friendly to non binary people, or, you know, trans guys who just weren't typical.

So we were just like, oh, which doctor do you have? Oh, that's a bad one. Oh, which doctor do you have? Oh, yeah, no, you can Okay. I know you're non binary, you can [00:29:00] say you're non binary and you will be treated with respect. So we had a few of those doctors who were like, on our good list, um, or who were in the community, like, they got us.

And I think our general advice was just like, if you're transmasculine non binary, just say you're a trans guy. Just lie. And a lot of our tips are about lying, which isn't good. When you're telling other trans people just to lie to get medical treatment. It's um, I don't know what it's like today, but I think there's a lot of that same fear.

Hey, so you mentioned being queer and genderqueer. What was dating like for you in your early years or even now like throughout your, your experience and did you get any specific messages about masculinity and how to be male in that realm of life? That's interesting. I think I was just dating a lot of the trans people for a long [00:30:00] time.

Um, all the people who I did date turned out to be trans, which was interesting. Um, got that touch. So yeah, I mean, I'm in a relationship with a cis gay man now, and I think that's kind of where I lean more towards, um, in terms of dating. Dating as a trans guy, yeah, maybe in my 20s. I didn't face a lot of, like, I don't know, transphobia, which was quite interesting.

And I guess it's just because I passed quite well, and I passed consistently very well from an early age. So by the time I was 17, 18, I was living where I could live stealth. I didn't really, but I was assumed to be male from the time where I was kind of more sexually active and dating. So I think I You know, I was kind of always in the bear ish subculture, so like, older [00:31:00] area guys.

who were generally more accepting of lots of different body types as well. I was never in kind of like Grindr or anything like that where I was always on the kind of more interesting apps for bears and other guys like that. So yeah, I didn't really get any, um, you know, negative comments about my body, to be honest, or even that I got a couple of chases, but yeah, it was a surprising, surprisingly good.

So you said you. Could be stealth, but you didn't really identify as stealth. Our podcast is called stealth, right? So it's a big word in our community. What does stealth mean to you? I think I've just had assumed stealthness. So, I mean, what does stealth mean to me? It means. that I can walk down the street and I'm cis until proven otherwise.

Like, I've got a massive beard [00:32:00] and I don't think any random cis guy on the street say, gosh, are you trans? Like, I haven't had that in years since probably the year one of my transition. So I think it's just kind of that default setting for me until I be out or I mention something. It's kind of, just how I live my life.

Um, yeah, it's, it's always interesting. Like I've, I've got lots of chest tattoos so I can be like half naked in the gym and have a full conversation with a guy and, and he just won't notice anything. So it's, even now it feels like sort of like, not an imposter syndrome, but I'm just like, there's that little voice at the back of my head saying, Oh, isn't it interesting that I can just do this and they don't know.

So it's more of a, yeah, it's, I think stealth is kind of just my default setting. Not by choice. You were pretty out there as a kid. I mean, you transitioned [00:33:00] in high school, uh, and you were public back then about it. I mean, can you, can you talk to us a little bit more about that time? If you're, if you're willing to.

Yeah. So, um, when I transitioned, there was a documentary made about me called the boy who was born a girl and it was made in 2009. So I followed my transition. So I followed my. My hormone appointments, taking hormones for the first time, buying my male school uniform as well and going back to school. Um, and it was, it was really good.

Uh, It answered a lot of questions that kids at school had about me because they didn't know what I was doing. They didn't, you know, then, you know, I was trans, or maybe they didn't, maybe they just thought I was weird. But actually the documentary was really well made. Um, I had a lot of respect for the crew who filmed it, um, and the content of it.

And actually a lot of the comments from the kids at school when I went back and when it aired, because I was. went back in sixth form, which [00:34:00] is kind of the last year of high school, I guess you'd call it, um, when kids are a little bit more mature, um, your peers are meant to be a little bit more mature, but, um, even some of, some of the kids who are a little bit dickheads to me actually said, oh, I actually understand you a lot more, I understand what's going on.

And that was a positive reception, which I wasn't expecting. It was also, I think around that time, obviously, trans people were under the radar to a greater extent than trans people are today. So, it was a novelty, so people had less to challenge, maybe. They could take the documentary, you know, as it is, without pushing back a lot or saying, Oh, actually, I think This doctor said this wrong, or do you know that there's no studies on this?

So it was kind of like, Oh, this is brand new information. Yeah, I really, you know, I'm learning a lot from it rather than that kind of the toxic debate that we have a lot now. [00:35:00] I'm really pleasantly surprised to hear that your experience was so affirming. From your family support to your fellow colleagues at school and then the medical community sounds like you know you had some trans folks in your world and non binary folks that could sort of usher you through that process.

It sounds as easy as it could be. Yeah, that was a lot of support. I didn't stay at school for very long. I think I just, I kind of gave up. I didn't really know what I wanted to do in life. So I just left. I didn't go to university. I, um, did some volunteering and got into trouble lots and just went out partying.

And then eventually I got a job and I've been in the non profit sector for most of my career. So that's where I sort of ended up. That's fantastic, and I want to shout out to all the bears out there, because I'm with you, affirming about bodies, and if you sprouted a beard similar to what you have now, as a young person, you [00:36:00] have the beard that I'd say nearly every trans guy dreams about.

It's like just this bushy beard. Yeah, thanks. I am. I've only really had it this long for a couple years, but I've always been able to grow facial hair. So shout out to my, uh, mom's dark curly hair and my Mediterranean genetics as well. Combining with their forces combined. They've done me very well in the, uh, beard department.

So, yeah. You're rocking it. So, okay. So talk to us a little bit about, um, your geographic region. You're in London. I am. Um, what's, what's happening in your geographic area these days? I read the paper, but I don't live there. I'd say, obviously, like any other major city, it's a good place to be trans.

Obviously, you know, uh, the UK is Turf Island, as a lot of people like to call us. Um. Wow. The political climate is, uh, not great for trans people, obviously. We've got a lot of transphobia [00:37:00] in the press and in the government. However. Uh, there's a lot of trans people in the UK, and in London specifically. So, I mean, I was talking to Kai before I got on, um, about, um, I've been to a fitness class which is centred around transmasculine people, and that happens You know, throughout the week, um, there's like rock climbing, there's pool parties, there's trans saunas, there's LGBTQ centres where you can do lots of community activities.

Um, there's pretty much everything that you can do that's trans centred or LGBTQ centred that is trans affirming or very trans welcoming. So, yeah, there's lots of parties. Obviously, I don't, being, um, boring. I don't go to a lot of club nights or parties, but there's definitely lots of trans guy nights and events.

Um, so yeah, it's a really good place. [00:38:00] I would recommend it. If you're ever interested in coming to London, then you will not be let down for the lack of trans community. Yeah. And activities that you can do. Yeah. Are there places that you would recommend trans people don't go to in the UK? Not really.

Depends on the trans person, obviously. Uh, me as a very passing trans guy is going to have a different, uh, experience than a trans woman who doesn't pass. That's just my, my privilege is that I can go anywhere and do anything and be invisible. There's trans people in every community. Um, and I volunteer for a trans organization and there's trans young people in every community from every different background.

Some communities who you might not expect to be welcoming are. Others more liberal communities aren't so yeah, that's great. Can you talk to us just because we're in the u. s We have a different health care system and [00:39:00] access to affirming care and surgeries is different here than in the UK Can you talk to us a little bit about?

Some of the things that you really appreciate about the medical system and the system in general and how, what are some of the barriers to care? I think the main thing that a lot of trans people in the UK will talk to you about is the waiting time. Um, even for adults it's years, it's years at this point to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria and to actually get on a pathway to having surgery.

It wasn't like that when I transitioned. It was a year or two. Maybe, I can't really remember, but it definitely wasn't the 5 7 years that people are waiting now. Can you tell me why? Like, can you walk me through it? Like, is it because there's more trans people and there's not enough medical? Is it because it's free healthcare?

Is it because of policy? What's, what's going on? It's probably a combination of everything you mentioned, Jackal. Do people who have financial ability to pay out of pocket, [00:40:00] do they have quicker access to care within the UK or do people go to different countries? Both, there are surgeons, uh, who do, you know, top surgery abroad, um, It's very, very common for trans guys to do crowdfunding.

That's just something you will see in the UK. Trans guys will set up, as part of their transition, a GoFundMe page, it seems. Like, it's just, it's not something that Was ever done when I transitioned, but it's, it's so common now that people are throwing like parties and events and trying to raise money over a number of years because there's no point waiting seven years on the NHS.

You mentioned the political climate and the current climate and experience of, you know, within the UK and elsewhere that there's transphobia. How do you, has that impacted your level of disclosure currently or over time? [00:41:00] I don't think so. How out are you, or not out? It depends if it comes up, really. If it naturally comes up during the conversation.

Like, if I'm talking about, you know, an event I'm going to, or something relevant to being trans, then I'll mention it. If I want to see what people are like, I won't mention it. See if I'm, it's worth me continuing my conversation with them. I think obviously, yeah, I am quite privileged. In that I have been transit quite a long time, like, transition, what, 15, 16 years ago, and so my level of care has just, like, decreased.

I'm just like, I don't care anymore, you can say anything to me. So, um, I'll, I might disclose just to, uh, uh, push people a little bit if I feel they might be kind of transphobic. But yeah, I'm aware that I can also have conversations without a level of emotion people who might be newly out might have, so I'm [00:42:00] very happy to kind of, if I'm talking to a parent of a trans young person who has some not transphobic beliefs, but concerns that might, they've been listening to the media quite a lot and have been taking on a lot of concerns about trans people.

I can have a level of conversation and be like, oh, why do you believe that? Or, you know, let me tell you a bit about me and how I transitioned very quickly and I'm still trans. Yeah, I don't, I don't really mind disclosing. That's awesome. Um, before we go into our next question, because you haven't mentioned it yet, and I'd like to get it, um, in the podcast, if you don't mind, you mentioned off air that you are Jewish.

Um, has that, are you part of the Jewish community? Like, has that impacted your, you know, disclosing inside the Jewish community or anything of that nature? Yeah, I think, um, [00:43:00] it's an interesting time. I converted to Judaism, uh, in 2016. Um, and yeah, I, I was very religious for a number of years. Um, less, I'm more chilled out about it now, but yeah, I used to be pretty from, uh, which is pretty religious.

Um, yeah. Not orthodox, but, um, I consider myself Masorti, which is conservative, so kind of more orthodox in style of religious practice, but more liberal in terms of personal beliefs and. And yeah, I was a member of a Masorti synagogue for quite a long time, and that's kind of where I naturally fall in terms of religious observance.

Yeah, I, so in the UK we have a gender recognition certificate, which, um, is basically the way you change your birth sex. So you get a new birth certificate, and that's kind of seen as your legal sex, and once you get a GRC, um, you are, like, officially, you know, legal. Male, essentially. It's, um, like, political BS, [00:44:00] um, because you don't need it for anything, you can, you need it to get married and to, like, die, and I think that's about it.

So, in, in your daily life, like, you never need one, but, um, there's this arbitrary, like, certificate that you're given to change your birth sex. If you want it, many trans people just don't have it, just because You need to get a lot of evidence for it, like all your medical records over a certain number of years.

Um, but I got it because it was important for me to have that ticked off. Um, and I had a ceremony in my synagogue to mark that occasion. So I got up to the bimah, which is the altar, and spoke to my conservative Jewish community about me being trans and why getting a gender recognition certificate is really important.

And I got it. Yeah, they, they all knew I was trans and, you know, very open and accepting about it. If they didn't like it or accept it, they didn't say anything to me personally, which is great. People are allowed to believe what they want to believe, but, um, all the feedback that I had was very, you know, [00:45:00] open and, and accommodating.

Hold on a second. Did they know before you did this or was this your coming out moment? Um, some of them might have known. I mean, it's not like, again, like I wouldn't have mentioned it had. The topic not naturally arisen. So some, some of them knew, some of them didn't. The rabbis definitely did know and all of the rabbis are absolutely fine with it.

You've had some amazing support in your life. Like that's really great. I know. Yeah. There's lots of, um, trans acceptance among rabbis in the UK, liberal rabbis in the UK, so reform, Masorti. and liberal Judaism. Um, some trans rabbis as well. The synagogue that I joined and had this ceremony at now has a non binary rabbi.

Wow. And there's other kind of queer rabbis. There's a project called Queer Yeshiva, which is in the UK. It's modeled sort of after the movement called Sephara in the US, uh, which does radical queer [00:46:00] Talmud learning sessions, learning projects and camps. So we now do that sort of thing. in the UK. So queer and trans people will get together and have services and, and Talmud and be together.

So yeah, there's a lot of queer and trans Jews in the UK as well, which is really good, especially London. So if you're, if you're in London and you're Jewish and a trans man, you will definitely have other trans guy Jews to hang out with. That's amazing. Synagogue words on Shabbat. So awesome. Thank you so much.

So what are some of the things that you're most proud of in your life? Probably converting to Judaism is one. Really? Yeah, it was a, it was a mission. I think aside from literally transitioning, that's probably the biggest thing that's ever happened in my life, and probably one of the most meaningful things that's happened in my life.

It's a whole just mindset and lifestyle shift, if you want it to be. Going from [00:47:00] having no real sense of community to being very heavily involved in a community as part of. lain, which is to learn to chant Torah. Um, so there's a specific trope that you use, a specific way of chanting Torah. And, you know, I was very dysphoric about using my voice for anything.

I used to love singing. The reason why I learned to chant Torah is because I wanted to use my voice to do service for the community and for God as well. And actually, it helped with the voice dysphoria, actually learning to have my voice in a skill that not a lot of other Jews. And because you need to learn obviously the Hebrew without the vowels and you need to learn how to chant the Torah So yeah, that was good and I can still sort of do it now I haven't been a very good Jew for the past few months because I had a lot of Life moments, but I will get back into it I think Judaism is something that it's always there if you want [00:48:00] it you know, no matter how far off the rails you go, you can always like find your way back and Yeah, it feels kind of like home.

Um, it's always there. So yeah, that's probably uh, we're talking about milestones. That's that's a big one So many queer and trans folks have experienced such loss and pain by during transition, post transition and rejection from religious communities and spiritual communities. So it's really nice to hear that you have found a home in the Jewish community and that they were so affirming and you had a really significant milestone.

and having them referring your gender, is it your gender change? Like document, I forgot the name of the document. Yeah. Gender recognition certificate. Uh huh. That experience. Yeah. I mean, that just really beautiful. I'm so glad that happened for you. Yeah. It's so interesting because again, we were talking earlier about privilege, how much of it is because I'm a very conventional cis passing trans man with light skin, who doesn't [00:49:00] really rock the boat a lot.

If I was a trans woman, if I was a non binary person who Yeah, again, it's that question of privilege and, and how much of it is acceptance? Because they just are cool with trans people, or are they just cool with me? This particular trans person, because I fit a very stereotypical male image. Right. And I don't really challenge that.

I don't make them think about trans stuff. Like, they may see a trans person who they can maybe tell is trans, and then that makes them think about trans stuff. But if they see me, they don't, they're not forced to confront the transness of my identity too much. Right. And I want to say, just as a generational difference, some of us back in the day were really Encouraged to present in a certain way and to think about gender in a very specific way that was non binary don't rock the boat, you know, very similar to the gay rights movement back in the day.

It's like they, you know, these types of gays were acceptable, you know, [00:50:00] white cis appearing, you know, or just, you know, very conservative looking, uh, folks. And I think, you know, the trans community too, we, some of us have grappled with this whole, like, well, it's not so cut and dry. And, you know, pronouns were a lift for some of us and you've talked about just being around folks, just various gender identities since you were a young person.

So that's, that's pretty cool. That's, that's a stark difference. And I wish I kept in touch with a lot of them these days. Um, when people drift apart, whenever I log onto Facebook, I try and keep track of how they're doing. Well, that kind of brings me to the next question is like, what kind of support do you think is needed in your area?

Like, I know you say that London has a great community, like all of this, but you also mentioned that there's a lot of like negative, you know, governmental stuff against trans people in the UK. What is needed? What do we need [00:51:00] from allies, from other trans people to move things forward? I think on like just a personal level it's great that we now have a little bit more support for like older trans people.

I know there's a couple of groups, there's like some chats among like older trans masculine people as well. So it's great that that community is sort of branching out and recognizing that need for just difference of space and kind of some time out from just a lot of like events that gear towards younger trans people, which I think is nice.

There's a lot already going on, there's like, yeah, there's a lot of activism on the ground happening. It's difficult when you can't really do much, because the government is essentially kind of refusing to listen to the voices of trans people and making decisions based on their own feelings and assumptions and medical [00:52:00] advice, which.

Might have just excluded a lot of trans people anyway, uh, from giving our lived experiences. Um, the one thing that I found really positive is volunteering for, uh, a youth group, uh, that supports, um, trans young people and their families, and making a difference on that level. So, I might not be able to change the mind of the Prime Minister.

But if I can help one mother or one dad or a grandparent who is worried about their kids transition or struggling to believe them or support them, if I can make a difference to that family, it's, it's making a difference personally for me and for tangible difference for other trans people. So I think, you know, supporting projects like that, that trans people are leading on, um, whether that's political activism or supporting other trans people, I think, you know.

That is where the community has its strength and, you know, we've always [00:53:00] supported each other. You know, when people have refused to step up or struggled to stick their necks out. So I think, yeah, allies can really help in financial resourcing or just being brave and confronting myths. You know, it's not nice to have difficult conversations, but they're just needed.

You know, now more than ever, where there's a hyper visibility about trans people. You mentioned working with, volunteering and having, coming into contact with younger people and their caregivers, whoever those people may be. What, what would you like to say to some of the newer trans and non binary folks and their families?

Yeah. What do I say? I say a lot of things to them. I think, I think it's really important for. young trans people to see. We were talking about imagining futures and seeing ourselves in the future. And for me, I'm a representation of what the future could be for like a 12 year old, 14, 16 year old trans [00:54:00] person.

Yes, you are. I can just say like, Hey, you can also make it to 30 and beyond and 40 and 50. And you know, a lot of, I think, you know, young people and, and their parents might assume trans people have only existed for about. five years. As the media goes on about it, you know, it's a new thing. Hormones are so new, you know, we've only been using hormones for like three years, apparently, to do anything.

So it's like, no, no, no gender affirming treatments lasted for decades. And there are trans people who've been on hormones for like 30, 40 years. This isn't new information. We've been here in modern history for quite a long time. And I think, you know, when I, speak to a family, I'm like, yeah, I transitioned within the space of a year.

I was very comfortable to make up my mind. And it's not strange or scary if your young person comes out and is very sure that they want to transition. I'm still [00:55:00] trans all of these years later and my life is good. And, um, sometimes they just need to have that possibility model of like, actually, you know, there are older trans people in the world doing what they do.

Yeah. Thanks. How do you think we can be more supportive of our transmasculine brothers? Both the older generation, the upcoming generation, I know you do a lot of role modeling for the younger ones that are, you know, you can get to 30, but what's the, what's the, what's some other things that you think we can be more supportive?

I think, um, especially like younger trans guys, I think especially like we talked about like stereotypes and masculinity and like the beliefs of how you are a trans. man, or a transmasculine person. And I think it's, it's also important when you see a lot of influencers online, as like, you can have different bodies and want different [00:56:00] things for your body.

That's fine, you don't need to be jacked and, you know, look a very typical kind of way. Um, and if every man looked the same, it would be really boring, humanity wise. And I think that's what, you know, I've had some, like, group chats with other trans guys and they're like, talking about their hips and stuff and I'm just like, like, like last year I was on holiday and I saw loads of cis men with big hips and with like, lots of fat around the area and like, very curvaceous, like lovely Mediterranean guys.

Like, there's such a diversity of bodies and appearances among trans guys and, and cis guys and we are more alike than we are different as well. So I think kind of that just recognizing and being comfortable in that would just improve a lot of people's. It's well being and confidence in their own masculinity as well.

It's like we don't have to have this, just hold on to this fear and keep on kind of spreading and snowballing [00:57:00] like a fear and discomfort when there's just bodies of bodies and there's not, yeah, we can just hold each other in that space. Yeah. That's so true. Thank you so much. That's beautiful. That's a beautiful statement because You know, you think about, you look at the gay community, and there's like, Femi boys, and like, bare boys, and like, bodies of all kinds.

You know, identity expressions of all kinds. But it's really important to say, there's also a lot of gender identity spectrum in the cis het male community, you know, like they're not all the same either. There are some guys that are more feminine and there's some guys that are super butch, there's some guys that are like, you know, six feet five and, and, you know, super built and, you know, big and there's guys that are twigs, you know, like there's all kinds of bodies and shapes up there.

I love that. Thank you so much. [00:58:00] Well, this is our last question for this. Part of the, of our podcast. Um, what do you think we should have asked that we didn't, what are your final words of wisdom? Just more spaces where we can have these conversations is always good. Cause instead of kind of just sitting in our own worlds and looking out on a very hostile landscape for trans people globally, we could look inwards at each other and have these collective spaces where we feel really good and affirmed.

So I think, you know, that's. Obviously, WhySpace is like, this exists and podcasts like this exist, you know, it's kind of a little island in what is for very many people, like a very stormy sea of, you know, confusion and fear. So, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You've really brought a, like a lightness to our program and just the way you, your outlook on things is really refreshing.

And I also think, you know, like you're [00:59:00] not participating in social media is actually kind of a nice thing for one's mental health, you know, because so much of it is fear mongering and just bad news. It's just, you know, increases anxiety, you know, and it's also a really supportive place for folks, you know, um, just to connect with community.

We have an Instagram page, you know, but I just think there's a, there's a balance and it just sounds like you. Your experience over time, Jonathan, of having family support, support within the school, just your ability to just have people affirm you over time and the rituals that you've, you know, described over time.

And I just really appreciate that. So glad you're here. I'm so glad you reached out to us. Thank you. To end, I, I think, just think about what you're good at. I'm not good at. Being on social media, I'm not good at kind of getting very angry. It doesn't do anything for my mental health. I know there's a lot of [01:00:00] stuff to be angry at in the world, but as I speak at my volunteering, I'm good at actually sharing my story and I'm good at helping families who may need my story.

So I think, you know, if to end, like, maybe if a trans guy is like, what, what difference can they actually make? Like, what are your strengths? Like, Is it being on social media if so great? Is it just not? And you can make a real difference just not being on social media and being face to face with other people.

And I think, yeah, just playing to our strengths is what's going to help us through these political challenges and into community challenges as well. Thank you. That was really good. I enjoyed it. Hey, Jackal here. Kai and I are excited to offer a new members section on our webpage. As a member, you'll get ad free episodes with bonus material like transmasculine history.

Here's a teaser. Let's get started with famed African American gospel singer Wilmer Broadnax, the frontman for his own quartet called Little Axe and the Golden [01:01:00] Echoes. I should here mention that Little Axe was his nickname. He was a small guy, especially compared to his brother, William, who went by the nickname Big Axe.

Go to our website and sign up to become a member today. Hey Kai, what did you think about our interview with Jonathan, first guest from the UK? First guest from the UK. I'm really glad that Jonathan contacted us and it's been really a nice way to start my day is talking with, with both of you. The thing that just, I can't get enough of is just his positivity and it's very grounded positivity.

I mean, he's very practical and very much who he is and his experience of growing up and being authentic about who he is and living on his own terms. He just seems pretty chill, and just Really great. Really great person. Yeah. Yeah. How about you, Jekyll? What do you think? Definitely. I, you know, I appreciated his, yeah, both, [01:02:00] um, getting support, you know, like it was just positive.

Okay. So, you know, he's, he learns about this at 10, you know, very young. He starts coming out at 15. He has a supportive mother. Is this so supportive family life comes out at school, has a supportive school community. Um, Lives in London, so he has this great LGBTQ, you know, trans events that he can participate in, so he's got community there.

And then, he converts to Judaism, and he has a supportive community there, and he even comes out, you know, with his GRC to the whole community and, you know, is supported by the rabbis and things like that. Like, he just has, and then he gives back, right? And then he like turns it around and gives back, you know, helping families, um, you know, accept their, their trans children, [01:03:00] right?

Um, and still having that positive relationship with his mom where she's doing it as well. So I think that they, he had an, a great story, a very positive story. It's a great way to start my, my morning and, uh, and I appreciate him as well. Agreed. I think, you know, he, he gave a shout out to Stephen Whittle, some of the, the, the folks that, you know, are, are, are so important who have been doing advocacy and, and putting themselves out there for our communities for decades and decades.

And Stephen was one of those, one of those important persons. Yeah, he's like UK. Mm hmm. Yeah. The Jude Patton. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, just the, the guts that they have to do that. And one of the things that I think was interesting that Jonathan mentioned was the timing of his public documentary, his public transition and in doing that documentary, I think he said it was like, oh, nine is when it came [01:04:00] out and how that was, you know, Surprisingly well accepted and not, there wasn't a lot of pushback about their veracity of a story or anything like that and how today it's such a different experience and that there would likely be a lot more combativeness, but also just like fear mongering and hate.

And, and it, it doesn't sound like that was his experience of it at all. Well, I mean, he called the UK turf Island right now, like it's known as turf Island, right? So that, that in and of itself is combative, right? So you're right. Like to have him have that experience, you know, and I mean, really, we've had that experience too, right?

Where. I do want to say one thing. I would like you to end it where you just said beautiful voice, but I do want to say one thing and you can cut this in or not. And that is, you know, another generational thing is about the movies, right? So he had this documentary made about him in 2009. That was really [01:05:00] positive.

And so it got positive feedback and positive support. Whereas the movies I had access to, or the two that I remember very clearly were Southern Comfort We're Robert Eads died because he couldn't get medical treatment as a trans man and boys don't cry. Right. Which is about a horrible situation where a trans man gets like raped and murdered, you know, beaten up several times throughout the movie, you know, so like just even the, the voice of the messages, the voice of the movies that are, that are, Getting presented from 1990 to 2009, 20 years is different.

And I'm so thankful for that. I'm so thankful that the generations have movies like the documentary that, that Jonathan was part of. Did you see the documentary about. How Hollywood has [01:06:00] portrayed trans people over a decade. Yeah. With Laverne Cox. And yeah, yeah, that was a really good one. Um, you know, one, one movie I did like during the nineties was you don't know.

Do you remember that? Vaguely vaguely. Max Valerio was on camera. Yes, yes, yes. It was really, really pretty great. And I remember it was the first time I saw a trans guy at a urinal. Uh huh. It's always something I wanted to do. And you know, I think Marty talked about that movie in his. You know, he was like, it's the first time that he had seen trans joy.

And it's very true. It's very true. Really good film. So representation matters. He's positive representation matters. It is highlighting some, again, generational differences because I think. In this case, it's somewhat similar that in the nineties, we were under the radar because the internet wasn't a really big thing.

We weren't during doing public declarations. We said we could fly under the radar and we didn't have to be [01:07:00] as public about what we're doing, even though what we do is very public because it impacts so many layers of our lives. You know, I just, I think there's so many more stories. That, that I would love to know more about in his life, you know, about his experience in education, about his experience with the other students, about his experience in dating, you know, and he sounds like he's been having a great time and, and his experience as, you know, I was really, I think.

The, the, his discussion discussion about the relationship with Judaism and, and his spiritual life just sounds really lovely. Yeah. I'm so happy that he has that. I just know so many folks have experienced religious trauma. And have been at, you know, just have experienced so much loss because of it and I'm really glad that he's been embraced and you know, his, also his comments about, [01:08:00] well, suppose I didn't present in this way, the privilege piece and, and discussion of his privilege and all, yeah, all those intersectionality.

So I think he just brought a lot of, it's really food for thought and just really beautiful, beautiful voice. And now it's time for Transponder. So today's Transponder, Trans Joy, Trans News piece is not only a shout out to presidential candidate Kamala Harris, but to her choice of running mate, Minnesotans might be surprised to find themselves in national news today.

Ever since Vice President Kamala Harris announced Democratic Governor Tim Walz of Minnesota as her running mate for the November elections. But that's not the only reason. To Kat Ron, Executive Director of Outfront Minnesota, the largest LGBTQ plus advocacy organization in the state, quote, Minnesotans are fired up about this, [01:09:00] maybe even overly proud of seeing one of our own on the national stage.

Unquote. Though it isn't just their sense of state pride influencing their enthusiasm. Walt's pro LGBTQ plus record goes far beyond his time in office, also spanning across his years in education and the military. Though he hasn't always been known to LGBTQ plus communities around the US, queer organizations in his state see Walt as a beacon of hope.

Thank you to the And news writer Ryan Adamczynski for providing this article. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact our Instagram page at transmasculinepodcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests who share their insight and their Expertise and heartfelt stories.

We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today, [01:10:00] Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before. the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience.

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