Jai is a 47-year-old, mixed race (Italian/Sri Lankan) man with a transgender experience. Jai medically transitioned back in 2007, had his top surgery soon after and completed bottom surgery a little over 10 years ago. Jai is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and has been in the social services field for 25 years and as a Social Worker for 16 years. Jai believes in passing it forward, so he volunteers his time sharing his experience through the Transgender Kaiser Advisory Council, workshops at health conferences, Transmen retreats and in Childhood Development/ MFT classrooms. In his leisure time, Jai likes his simple life hanging out with his friends, working out at the gym, doing DIY home projects with his wife of 22 years and hanging out with his two Tabby cats, Nicoya and Foxy Brown.

Jai

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. Welcome back. We're excited to be entering our fourth season of Stealth a Transmasculine Podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. It's amazing to us that we are still going strong after two years and we'll be featuring our 50th episode this season.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to that, our stories are very often overlooked.

Kai: We want our audience to know that we [00:01:00] ourselves are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways.

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition.

Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to [00:02:00] health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy. We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Jackal: So Kai, how's your health been? How's your health been lately? You know, like we're getting up there. We need, need to take care of

Kai: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Okay. Yeah, I do feel a little old. Sometimes I work with people in their twenties and thirties and I think I'm older than some of their parents, actually. So, for

Jackal: That is so true. That's true for me too. It's so embarrassing.

Kai: And now I sound like the people I used to make fun of, I don't feel old, so I guess body wise, I think for somebody in their late fifties reaching, we're close to 60, my body's holding up pretty good.

Kai: I'm trying to keep it together, definitely, as my dad, who's 93, is [00:03:00] going through a lot of different procedures . He's had skin cancer removed because he was out in the sun, all the time. So I am anxiously awaiting that time of my life, because my skin is as a redhead, fair skinned person.

Jackal: Irish as it can

Kai: I know, I'm screwed, I already have a dermatologist, but so regular dermatology, vaccines, we had to be really careful with COVID, because we're older, and then, this thing called the shingles vaccine. Do

Jackal: Oh my God. So yeah,

Kai: Do you remember when I got mine?

Kai: I got the shingles, the flu, and the COVID vaccine in the same day.

Jackal: Wow. Your first shingles. Cause you have to take two.

Kai: It was my second shingles, so the first one I had earlier, but yeah, what a pain in the, hmm. So, you, you just had your shingles vaccine?

Jackal: But no, no, no. Okay. Don't skip over that. You had all three of those at the same time. How long did it take you to recuperate? Did you have a reaction?

Kai: Uh, yeah, I felt sore and tired, for sure, like my arms, [00:04:00] they had to hit me in both arms, so that was painful to like, I couldn't do jumping jacks really easily, ? I had flu like symptoms the next day. It took me a couple of days to get through it, but I, I worked from home at the time and I didn't miss any work at all.

Kai: I got it in the morning and hit me late that night and I knew the next day I would feel like dirt, but I just made it through. It felt awful. Awful.

Jackal: Yeah. I did both of mine on a Friday. So I got my first shingles shot, In December, and I got it with the COVID vaccine and it laid me out, laid me out for two days. I couldn't sleep because I was shivering like I had body chills. And I mean just racked my body like I was like convulsing shivering like it was awful.

Jackal: I just piled the blankets on as much as I could, like covered my head, just was trying to stay warm, but it was really like the reaction more than it was [00:05:00] like a reaction to the, the being cold, it was just a reaction to the vaccine. So you have to take two shingles shots. You can't take it more than three months, but it has to be within this three to six month window. So I took my second single shingle shot on a Friday as well. Actually I had a doctor's appointment on the Monday and they're like, Oh, we can just give you the shingle shot today. I'm like, no, you can't

Kai: Mm, mm,

Jackal: that's not happening.

Jackal: So I got it done on a Friday because I was planning ahead I didn't get the flu shot because it's the end of the season, but I got a pneumonia shot. I got those at the same time and. Saturday, which also happens to be the day that the house caught fire. I slept all day, like all day long.

Jackal: Like I just, got up to basically pee and eat and then slept because I just had a low grade fever. It was not as bad as the one that I had my first shot, but, , but it wasn't fun. And the second day actually was pretty good. So it was only like [00:06:00] 24 hours compared to the 48 hours for the first one.

Jackal: For all the people that are our age, that are over 50, you're supposed to get your shingle shot. Plan for it because you can have a negative reaction or just a reaction to it. If you're fortunate, like Kai was his first time, probably didn't notice it at all. Or, like me and my second, they say that the second one is supposed to be worse than the first, but, for me, it wasn't.

Jackal: And, but again because I got it paired up the first time with COVID and the second time with pneumonia. I don't know, you know, if I

Kai: which one kicked your ass? Yeah.

Jackal: my ass, or if the combination kicked my ass, or how it was, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, get them done because shingles is not fun.

Jackal: We have a friend who just had his shingles outburst. And if you have had chicken pox and you are over 50, go get your shingle shot.

Kai: Yeah. I didn't know what shingles was. It's a variation of chickenpox, which is also varicella. They have a varicella vaccine for chickenpox because they didn't have that when we were kids. I [00:07:00] remember everybody saying we should just get it right as a kid, you know?

Jackal: Yeah. That's what my mom said. My sister got it. And she was like, okay, you're going to stay home and get the chicken pox so that everybody gets it out of their system.

Kai: yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so what happens with that virus is it stays in our bodies and it lives in our nerves for life. And as we age, when our immune systems kind of wane, we become at risk for the virus breaking out and it reactivating. So, people in the U. S.,

Kai: for example, we're speaking about the U. S. here, it says one in three people will get shingles after the age of 50. That's from the AARP website. I know that shingles can cause nerve pain, can cause a lot of lingering symptoms and discomfort in folks, can cause rashes, can cause cognitive impairment, things like that.

Kai: Stay safe everybody, get your vaccines, and getting old is quite something Jackal but I'm glad we're doing it. Every day I wake up, I'm glad I'm here.

Jackal: man. That's, that's really a beautiful thing to say, because I think that that's really true. Like people are [00:08:00] like, it sucks getting old and things like that. I feel blessed to be able to be getting old, you know?

Kai: yeah, for sure. And to all of our trans brothers out there and all of our trans siblings out there, just, continue to live and we're happy to be around. We're glad you're here with us.

Jackal: we're glad you're here.

Kai: Jackal and I want to remind our listeners that we have a new member section. We want to thank those like Emory, Harold, Taylor, Matt, and Alex who have become members. Our member section offers bonus questions, features trans masculine pioneers no longer with us, and hilarious personal stories by our volunteer extraordinaire, Adam.

Kai: Here's another teaser.

Adam: Anyway, the story I wanted to tell today is a pretty familiar one in the land of trans masc ridiculousness, in that it centers on a misplaced dick. So, as I mentioned, part of my whole midlife trans epiphany involved blowing up my 13 year marriage, which in turn meant that I needed to sell my house, which I'm actually still in the process of doing.

Adam: And I have two kids, and my ex and I split custody of them, but point being, kids live here in this house 50 [00:09:00] percent of the time, and as such my house frequently looks like a tornado of glitter and crayons just ripped right through it. So, anytime the broker wants to bring prospective buyers by, I have to do a frenzied power clean of the house to make it look halfway presentable.

Adam: So, the other day, the broker calls and says he has some folks who want to see it, and I do the frenzied power clean and clear everyone out of the house. I come home a couple hours later after the showing, feeling extremely proud of myself for the manic level of cleaning efforts, and then notice that I manage to leave a giant, hyper realistic, quite veiny dick in the sink.

Adam: Yeah, so after having the requisite shame spiral of crippling embarrassment, I text the broker, I believe it was just a string of fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, with like a thousand apologies after, and then I chose that moment to out myself as trans to him, since that seemed like the logical thing to do.

Adam: He being a grown up who is extremely focused on making his commission, replied with something to the effect of lol, all good, I've seen worse, and said that he'd actually noticed it in time to conceal it before [00:10:00] the buyer saw it. Which, of course, made me wonder whether that meant he had picked it up and moved it somewhere and then moved it back?

Adam: Or maybe he just threw a towel over it or something? These are the questions that keep me up at night, wondering whether my broker has touched my dick. We also accept donations, and we want to thank Kida and Evan for their donations. The 4 a month. So go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up now. We don't wanna be gatekeepers, so if you feel like you can't afford $4 a month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com.

Adam: Consider buying a T-shirt while you're on our website. Or if you want to be cool like Adam. We're always looking for volunteers and we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Adam: Today's interview is with Jay. Jay is a 47 year old mixed race Italian Sri Lankan man with a transgender experience. Jay medically transitioned back in 2007, and had his top surgery soon after, and [00:11:00] completed bottom surgery a little over 10 years ago. Jay is a licensed clinical social worker, and has been in the social services field for 25 years, and as a social worker for 16 years.

Adam: Jay believes in passing it forward, so he volunteers his time sharing his experience through the Transgender Kaiser Advisory Council, workshops at health conferences, trans men retreats, and in childhood development. MFT Classrooms. In his leisure time, Jay likes his simple life, hanging out with his friends, working out at the gym, doing DIY home projects with his wife of 22 years, and hanging out with his two tabby cats, Nikoya and Foxy Brown.

Adam: Jay's 10th anniversary is 2007, the same as Tristan, Christian, Jeremy, and Max Gotti, so go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in that year. We'll lead in this episode with more music by Eddie and the Heartbeats. Music for Stealth is provided by me, Ed Varga. You can find my music at ToneGeneratorStudios.

Adam: com. If you're an artist, storyteller, or media maker looking for custom, original music for your project, please hit me up. I [00:12:00] also make music as Eddie in the Heartbeats, and you can find my music and blog at Eddieintheheartbeats. com.

Jackal: So welcome back to stealth. We're here with Jai. How are you doing today, Jai?

Jai: Doing pretty good. Not too bad for a Sunday morning.

Jackal: Yeah. Right. Good. Okay. So we don't know you exactly. We might've crossed paths at various conferences, but can you tell us a little bit about how you got onto this podcast while you're here this morning with us?

Jai: So I've [00:13:00] known quite a few guys that you've interviewed and one in particular i've been friends with for over 15 years and so He went ahead and I think he referred me to you guys and then you guys reached out to me and I was like Yeah, that sounds this is a great project. So yeah,

Jackal: Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you to your friend. He's one of our many jacks and and thank you for being here. How did you learn about trans masculine identities? Yeah. Yeah.

Jai: Well when I was younger, I I never really I knew I was different and that I wasn't like other girls. And and there was no language around it or at all. I just knew how I, how I felt. And, , I used to watch Grease on repeat over and over again. And I remember seeing Danny Zuko and I'm like, I want to be like Danny Zuko.

Jai: He's so cool. And I, I just [00:14:00] knew that his masculinity like really appealed to me. And it wasn't until later on where I read Stone Butch Blues, where it spoke to me. I was the first time something spoke to me, I was like, oh, wait a minute, you know, I kind of relate to something here. And then, You know, back in the day when I was going to college I'd go into the bookstores a lot and I went to San Francisco State University and I would go to the bookstores in Castro and I saw Lauren Cameron's body alchemy book.

Jai: And I think that's a common, common story. And I remember seeing that book and seeing such a positive representation of masculinity and of transmasculinity. I would look at that book like it was a water in a desert, you know, it was just kept looking at it. And then.

Jai: Later on, a little later, I saw a flyer in the old school days, you see [00:15:00] flyers, in bookstores or coffee shops, and it was of Lauren Cameron and Jameson Green speaking at the San Francisco Library. And I saw this, this flyer and I, I was like, I got to go to this and and

Jai: it wasn't that I was thinking about, oh, I'm going to transition. It was more of this is really speaking to me. So I went to. I went to go see them speak, and I remember watching them on stage, I don't even remember what they were saying, I just remember how they were presenting, and how I was feeling about it, and how they, they were, these two gentlemen were so distinguished.

Jai: And confident when they were speaking. And I just remember it clicking in my head and I thought to myself, I do not want to grow up, grow old as an old woman. That was like the first time. And like, even though they were not that much, they were not old at the time, but I was only in my twenties. And so seeing [00:16:00] these two older gentlemen, like it was like, You know

Kai: What were you feeling, Jai? You said that you were feeling something when you went in there. What was it?

Jai: yeah, I'm feeling it all again right now as I talk to you guys. I was feeling this feeling of Like I found something I didn't feel as lost Because I've always felt very different And then when I saw these two gentlemen on stage I just remember feeling like I found something like I like, okay, this is it, you know, it wasn't like this weird feeling of like, I can't figure this out.

Jai: I can't figure it out what is so different and trying to like navigate and like a dark room. It was like, I actually felt like I actually found something, you know, I found it and I'm going to I grabbed onto it and I that's when it started my, my, my journey at that point.

Jackal: So what was your life like back then and how did you actually begin your transition? What was the community like? What was the [00:17:00] information you were receiving?

Jai: So, back then. At least what I had available to me was not much. There wasn't a lot of information that I had seen. And and so it really was about picking up the phone and calling places. I remember trying to find more information.

Jai: I went to a few Lee Sullivan meetings. But I only went to a few I think at the time, you know, I, I was like so focused at the time of like, okay, how are other trans men transitioning? What is the right way to do this? And I, I've always felt very different, especially like being a mixed race person, not feeling like I actually, there is one way of doing things.

Jai: I stopped going to the meetings and but they did give me some resources. They're like, Oh, call Tom Waddell. And I remember calling this clinic up because I lived in the East Bay at the time, or [00:18:00] I still do, and I remember calling up the Tom Moddell Clinic and they're like, Oh, well, you need to be a San Francisco resident.

Jai: And I remember some guys would go, Oh, yeah, you could like use the somebody else's, address, but I was nervous about doing that. I didn't know too many, too many other folks in San Francisco at the time. And so I was like, okay, well, what am I going to do? And then I think because you got to be really resourceful, right? Especially as a trans guy with no information. So I started calling other clinics and I called Lyon Martin Clinic in San Francisco, and I remember, I was hitting a lot of walls and I remember picking up the, the, I remember calling Lyon Martin Clinic and they, I Individual on the other end.

Jai: I mean, he was a, he's a trans guy, but I didn't know that at the time. So friendly, so welcoming. I was ready for rejection. I was, I was, I kept getting it. I felt, I was scared because, you know, I [00:19:00] had actually finally figured out something that was speaking to me. And then I felt like I was hitting all these roadblocks and I was waiting, ready for them to reject me again.

Jai: But he was just like. Really, like, nonchalantly, he's like, yeah, come on down. I remember that feeling of like, I'm gonna be okay. I'm gonna be okay. You know? And I was. At that, after that, it's, things started to fall in line. It took that, which I always took that on myself.

Jai: And I said, you know, I pass it forward. I do the same thing. I always keep that in mind about you, you want to be as friendly and welcoming and, and as Least judgmental as possible. Anyways, it was so at that point, you know, I went down there and then they had the resources The doctors were knowledgeable and it started to you know even my assessment at that point when they like They have to do quick assessment before they give you hormones like that went really smoothly like[00:20:00]

Jackal: Nice. Nice. You mentioned it briefly, but I want to dive into it a bit. Like, how do you think your social standings, like race, being mixed race, class sexuality, anything like that, like impacted your ability to transition, your thoughts about transitioning, your desire, fears?

Jai: It's a great question so so I'm mixed race, right? So both my parents are from old school, small, small towns. So my mom is from the Alps in Italy, which is a little village up there, which, it's like has one church.

Jai: And , it's like the main religion is, Catholicism, and my dad is from Sri Lanka, and he came from a small village, like, town in Sri Lanka, where they're jungle like. So both of their mentality of what, what it is to be like a fem to be a female, you know, is like old school [00:21:00] thinking, right, like, long black hair. Like long black hair down your back. It's like the symbolism of femininity, right? I remember my father having friends over and wanting me to serve tea to them. I hated that. You know, you come and serve me, serve my, my male friends. And I remember like, like that really Does, you know, especially here I am looking at what masculinity is like, I love the incredible Hulk and I love, I love the incredible Hulk.

Jai: And I, Danny Zuko, like the ultimate masculine, you know, quote unquote, what masculinity is. Right. And and so I definitely think it messed with my idea. My father wasn't, you know, I couldn't help. You know, I was just masculine presenting by, it was just organic, right? And, I remember as I got older, like I was coming into my [00:22:00] masculinity, and my father just, I just couldn't accept it at all and and my rest of my family was more like they kind of like just saw it and they, their way of accepting it was you just don't talk about it.

Jai: You don't talk about it and I needed to talk about it. So even when I did come out, You know, as, as, as a quote, unquote, lesbian, but masculine, lesbian, like their whole thought, the way of their, their thinking of acceptance was, I'm not going to reject you. So if I don't reject you, then therefore that's acceptance, but we're not going to talk about it.

Jai: And so I definitely felt like I didn't have safe spaces to talk about it. I was also sent a message because culturally we don't talk about mental health. On either side of my family, culture wise, you don't talk about mental health [00:23:00] and so, I didn't have that safe platform to talk about it

Jackal: How does that relate? Like, what were you struggling with mental health? Why, or do you feel like because you were struggling with your gender identity and, and not fitting in or not feeling like a girl and all of these things, did that, was that a mental health issue for you? Like how, how does those two things relate?

Jackal: I'm sorry.

Jai: No, that's a good question. Sorry, yeah, It's anxiety inducing in a way when you're trying to navigate something that's just not, there's no real map. And so I definitely had anxieties around it and it would have been wonderful to be able to have that platform to say, Hey, I don't feel good, you know, I'm feeling a little depressed and I'm feeling anxious about it, but there wasn't a space created, it wasn't okay.

Jai: My family sent a message to me and it's just cultural, I think, that, okay, it's okay, you can be [00:24:00] the way you are, you just don't talk about it, and what you do is you normalize it. So if you don't talk about it to others, we don't talk about it to others, we just, just be. And so that this like elephant in the room when you walk into a place or you go and talk to family or other family or friends. It's odd because you know what's happening, they know what's happening, but you just can't talk about it.

Jackal: Thank you.

Kai: The influence of family is so key. And what you're describing really resonates with an Irish Catholic person. Who's like, you bring in shame on the family. We don't talk about it. We hold this within the family. We're very private. And that, that can be troubling because it's like, wait a minute do you not know what's happening? Whether it's related to gender or not, it's, it's that elephant in the room that you're describing and how troubling that can be because it's not really acceptance, they're just not booting you out, I don't know about you, but I felt like this judgment and this just, it was on their terms. That was not a way [00:25:00] for me to feel at ease, you know, in my family. And that's, that's ideally that's the place of safety and comfort, you know? So I really feel that when you talk about it

Jai: Right, that's exactly you just don't air your dirty laundry that was told us to over and I still have that mentality in a way where you don't hear your dirty laundry. So sometimes it's hard like I do like it's interesting because I. I do a lot of advocacy because I believe in passing it forward and at the same time, it's like, oh, it's so odd to sometimes talk about this stuff, but it's so important to talk about it, especially coming from different cultural backgrounds that, you know, I say a lot, representation matters, and that's why I do what I do.

Kai: Mm hmm. Yeah. Amen. When you were talking earlier about going to the, I think the Lou Sullivan group, which many people won't know, but that was the San Francisco group, right? And and you were, you went a couple of times and it wasn't a good fit for you. And you mentioned that, you know I think there [00:26:00] was a component that it was like a lot of that had to do with being mixed race too.

Kai: And the messages we're hearing, can you talk to us a little bit, Jai, about like, what were you hearing in those meetings or from other folks that really that if you can remember.

Jai: So, so the guys were great, just to put that out there. They were great. I think it was more of, yes, exactly what you just said, Kai. It's like, I think it's because of my upbringing and the messages that I was sent. And also, like, seeing how guys were transitioning, and I think, you know, Culturally wise, like, we all transition differently on what, what masculine looks like and different cultures look different.

Jai: And I was comparing myself, because I didn't, like, I was a late bloomer in my transition. And and so comparing myself to the guy that, , to other guys in the, in the group that, that they were all white. Were, they may have transitioned, like, a week later and look like a lumberjack, [00:27:00] right?

Jai: Where I, here I am, like, I just, in my genes, you know, not very hairy in our family. It was challenging because I knew at that time instinctually, but thank goodness because of my experience as a mixed race person and not really feeling like, I fit in one box. It was kind of easy for me to like say, okay, you know what, Jai, you may need to transition on the download a little bit, go through your journey and then surface, which is what happened.

Kai: Tell us more about that.

Jai: So when I started going to the groups, I went here and there. It wasn't enough to give me some resources to kind of give me some leads, but I mainly decided for the first four years of my life to kind of transition on the down low. So I didn't go into a lot of events.

Jai: And what I did was, is I graduated my master's program from social work, found myself a little [00:28:00] LGBT job, you know, it was like, it was an organization that was like six people, seven people in it. Thank goodness it was really well funded and I found and they gave me like a small little cubicle because I really wanted to transition them to down low.

Jai: I had had, I had a job in social work right out the gate. It was, but it was very community based. So I was like out in the public eye. And being misgendered was extremely painful. I knew it would happen. And I was only there for like three months at the, at my first job. And we'd be in community settings and I, people would be like, Oh, I'm so sorry.

Jai: And it was just embarrassing. So, I left that, and I found this small little LGBT job, and it was like this little cubicle, I was still doing my social work stuff that I loved, but it was much more in like a contained environment, where it was like one on one, and [00:29:00] it was, it was, and I just did that for four years, and I always tell this story when I talk about my experience in classrooms, I always tell the story about, How I judged when I started passing, and the way I started doing it was, okay, am I getting misgendered 50 percent of the time?

Jai: Okay, now I'm getting misgendered only 40%, 30%. And then when I hit like 10 or 5%, I was like, okay, now I feel more confident. And I feel like I can now go out into the world and that's when I started applying for, for bigger jobs, better paying jobs.

Kai: That's interesting. You know, the name of our show is stealth, the trans masculine podcast, and you're talking about living sort of a low to non disclosing lifestyle at that time. And you're at a job and they, I'm sure they knew what was happening for you, right? You went in as Jai and for four years, you were working with folks that maybe, didn't see you for who you are entirely and they were misgendering you.

Kai: Do you [00:30:00] remember, did you change the level of disclosure that you had at that time? You were low disclosing at the beginning, and then it sounds like something's shifted, you're maybe a little bit more forthcoming or more, more out.

Jai: I think at the time I just wanted to kind of transition on the down low just because of, I wanted my privacy. But I think that as I started to become more comfortable in myself. I, I definitely choose where I disclose. So I'm actually not out at work. So I've been at my job for gosh, what is it? I want to say 12 years, 13 years, and I don't talk about it at my job. People may know, but I don't talk about it. I don't open that door for discussion because I'm a private person. I don't want people talking about my personal life.

Jai: I know it's juicy gossipy material, you know, and I don't blame people's curiosity. People are human beings are curious [00:31:00] people. I'm very protective. It took me a long time to get to this place where I can have a nice secure job that I'm very protective over it. So I don't bring in my, my personal life into my job.

Jai: And if I, in my neighborhoods, I don't disclose, I'm not very out. In my community, in my neighborhoods, but I do believe representation matters, especially for, for men of color. I'm at a point where now I feel like I can navigate where I'm, I can, I know that the worlds are a little separate, like when I'm doing advocacy, it does feel like it's a little separate.

Jai: I don't feel like they overlap. I don't do a lot of social media around it, because I do know people Google, but I pick and choose. I, and if people know, it's not like I deny it, it's just that I don't open the door to having discussions. So if people know, it's usually, I'm gonna guess that it's somebody [00:32:00] that wants to know and that may be okay with it.

Jai: I don't know, it's, it's yeah, that's how I, that's how I navigate it.

Kai: Yeah, it's so individual for all of us and we have various levels of disclosure or non disclosure over our lifetimes . I work for a queer organization and I'm doing gender affirming care so I'm very much at home and it's a big shift from Two years ago when I was stealth and for me, I, that was untenable after a while, that low to non disclosing lifestyle. I felt so isolated from people. I really was isolated and that wasn't okay for me. But I think it's really interesting, Your private person can totally relate, you know, very private person. You're, you have a work life and you have work relationships, professional relationships, and then you also are paying it forward and really focused on representation and doing advocacy and being visible to folks. Right. Do you feel any sort of tension there where you like any sort of responsibility to disclose at times at work, how do you manage some of that?

Kai: Mm [00:33:00] hmm. Mm

Jai: Another great question. Yes. So, I do feel, I feel guilt. Sometimes I struggle because we do have, we have the need at my job to have folks with my experience, bring in more trainings and things like that. But I always hesitate. I just kind of, I don't really, I, I, I'm not ashamed of it is just that there's this, the truth is, is that there's a safety factor.

Jai: And the real world is that not everybody's okay with it and people can use it against you. And so even though I think I could, I would be okay, I just think that I'm like, why open that? And also it's nice to be able to be Jai, the, licensed clinical social worker, you know, and that's where my expertise is.

Jai: And I, and I'm able to not get distracted from that by having to worry about all this other things. But yeah, there's oftentimes when I get emails and they're like, Oh, we want [00:34:00] to really work on diversity. And I'm like, yes, you guys do let me help you. But,

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. So many of us feel a sense of responsibility to be out and to be the one that does some education around trans issues or feels an obligation. I feel an obligation on Trans Day of Visibility. Kai, I gotta post to my social media, my Facebook, and I don't. I've never done that on my Facebook page.

Kai: I don't. Do that. But I definitely, we have Instagram, you could Google me too. You know, it's such a, such an individual thing and your workplace safety, your professional life, that's your vocation is what you're, you're focused on, you're right. It's not always an asset like where I am being a trans guy is an asset because it helps me connect with people.

Kai: I work for a queer organization. It's a very different way to be. And it's something that we just make decisions and we're faced with all the time. So I feel you that that's cool. And also it's like, who else is going to step up for you or for our community at your job? Thank you so much for, [00:35:00] for really going there with me.

Kai: I appreciate it. Silence.

Jackal: trigger in you as a word for our community?

Jai: So I've actually had conversations with my buddies over the years because, you know, actually a good hand, you know, good majority of my friends are still in it, but everybody's definition is different. So. So I've asked that. I'm like, it's a little convenient because traditionally what I always thought stealth was, or what I heard back in the day, was stealth was where somebody, you transition, and then you go into quote, quote, the mainstream, and you don't disclose that you're trans, and you just, you live your life as a man.

Jai: And do what everybody else does, work [00:36:00] and live. And you just don't bring up the trans piece. Keep that to yourself. But over the years I've heard my friends say, Oh, I'm stealth. And that's shifted for them too actually. But, we've discussed it and to me I think stealth is when you, I think stealth is when you just, you choose to disclose and when not to disclose.

Jai: So, I think that you could be, say some folks that are not stealth at all, they are an open book in the, holistically, like in their whole life, right? In every part of their life. And then there's some guys that are just stealth, you know, in safe, safe or whenever they choose to disclose. And so that's what I think stealth is, is that you're choosing not to disclose.

Jai: It doesn't mean you're ashamed of it. It doesn't mean that you're hiding it. It just means you're choosing [00:37:00] not to disclose for whatever reason is to you.

Jackal: That's really simple. I love it. I love that. The simplicity of that answer. It's like, really? Cause I mean, really, that's all it is, right? I really think that stealth is a word that's been projected onto our community through kind of a historical sense of passing and lying and all of the, that ideology, but really stealth is just about when we choose to disclose or not, right?

Jackal: When we choose not to disclose. So

Kai: And we, we don't owe anybody anything.

Jackal: We don't know anybody anything.

Kai: don't owe, we're not obligated to disclose private information.

Jai: I agree.

Jackal: totally. Yeah. We're focusing basically on post transition stuff. , we'd love to hear your story about how you transitioned, but our lives are so much more, we are so much more than trans people, right? And so what are some of the milestones, successes, challenges in your life post transition?

Jai: So, so for [00:38:00] me, a big milestone was when I had my bottom surgery. When I had my bottom surgery, it was like, as soon as they said, okay, insurance is now covering it. Myself and some of my other buddies, we went out, signed up, we had our bottom surgeries and. It was, it was like several years of surgeries, right?

Jai: And and once I got through that, I felt like it was a chapter that kind of closed for me. It was, that was when I felt like, I was able to kind of move on when I actually recovered from the bottom of surgery because it was such a long process. Then I felt like it's such a, it's been such a long journey of like research, finding out and like, it's so consuming, right? That, and you have to, you're always focusing on medical, , Navigating work as a trans person [00:39:00] like trans trans trans and so when I had my bottom surgery and I had to recover from it that was a huge milestone because I felt at that point when I started moving forward it became about growing my career and trying to secure my future as far as like we bought a house.

Jai: And, you know, now we're working on retirement.

Jackal: Mm hmm.

Jai: And, yes, the trans piece is always gonna still slightly be there because of medical reasons, right, and we don't know what our we don't know, there's no research on T, and so we don't know what the effects are gonna be as we get older, so I'm like, I gotta make sure that when I'm old working on my retirement that I put that I got to always put like a little safety net in place, make sure that I've got medical coverage, got to make sure that I've got a, you know, where am I [00:40:00] going to retire? Because I don't, we don't have children. So where are we going to go and retire? So I think a big milestone was my bottom surgery being completed successfully and feeling like, okay, now, now it's time to like the second part of my journey in my life now to actually look at everything else and, and it was like, it's like catch up, too, I had to catch up from, I had no idea, because I was like, I'm not trying to be dramatic, but it was like, I felt like it was, even though it was having a great time, I had a great life, but it was like survivor mode in a way

Jackal: you know you talk about that. It's so funny. Kai talks about this a bit too. It's like, \ it's almost like we have had a stunted growth period until we transition. And so we're so focused on being able to live our authentic selves that until we complete that process, whatever that means for us, that we're not able to focus on the, like the life ahead, you know, [00:41:00] living an adult life kind of thing. And that's what I'm hearing you say. And I've heard guys say it. And I feel it too. Like I just started a new job and I'm 59 and I was like, you know, seven years to retirement, eight years to retirement. It's like, what the fuck?

Jackal: You know, why am I being punished for being trans? I mean, I'm not blaming being trans, but it's like, why am I being punished in my like longevity of, of life and retirement and all that for, due to the circumstances that I had.

Jai: It's true. It's almost like it's trying to like, it feels like, well, I don't know about you, I can't speak for you guys, but for me, it's like, we got to keep up with the Joneses and everything that we had to deal with. It's just, I feel like we're supermen sometimes, you know, like we have to, and we're expected to, well, I'm, I feel like I'm expected to, to juggle all of that.

Jai: And. Sometimes it's good to stop and go, gosh, I had, I, I, I'm catching up because of this.

Kai: Yeah, yeah, and it's really hard for people even in the community to understand the implications of any kind of surgery, [00:42:00] preparing for it, all of the factors that go into preparing for it, getting your body, your finances, your support in order, going through the actual physical surgery, and then recovery period. how do you tell your work or not tell your work? How do you describe to your friends and family? How do you just fall off the, you know, for weeks and weeks, and then come out, , and then just getting through that and preparing for the next stage and then the next stage, and what if there's a complication, it's so hard for people to wrap their head around that, you know?

Kai: And it's scary, cause you just don't know what's going to happen. Like, hopefully you'll wake up. Right.

Jackal: Period.

Kai: Hopefully you'll make it to one piece to the table and then wake up and then be okay as okay as possible, congratulations. I feel on that it's such a huge, huge series of really intensive procedures.

Kai: So that's amazing. Thank you for

Jackal: also, yeah, thank you. And also both of you, I haven't had bottom surgery, so I don't have [00:43:00] the same experience. I did have chest reconstruction as decades ago, you know, there was a couple of weeks of recovery. I wasn't in a job, but when you're working and you have health insurance and now you're choosing to get bottom surgery, one of the pieces, and this is also about the disclosure piece is like the why right.

Jackal: And if you're not out in, in your work environment and you're taking this long period of time to do something, gender affirming care. And people are like, Oh, you were gone so long. What happened , where were you, what medical thing, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

Jackal: And then we're really. Really stuck in creating a story, which is where I find the tension of like actual lying or like, why the fuck are you asking me this? It's private and I'm not. If I haven't opened and shared this with you, you don't have the right to ask me. Like, where, where does that tension fall?

Jackal: You know,[00:44:00]

Jai: Seriously. So when, when I had my bottom surgery I was working and we, I actually happened to be working with another trans guy that we'd known each other for a very long time. And and he had it. Three, I think it was like six months before me, and he had the same scar on his forearm. So here we are both working on the same floor.

Jai: He's got a scar on his forearm. I have a scar on my forearm. He had to be out for three, I think it's like a three month recovery. I had to be at three months. So it was a lot of like our coworkers are like, cause we're not out. We had to have our forearm covered. It was just, it was hilarious.

Jai: I'm like, they're going to look at us going, what? Like, why do they both have,

Kai: I don't want to work in that department.

Jai: yeah,

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Kai: some forearm thing happen. I don't know. Disappear for a while.

Jai: And I think like, that was good. You know, that's a good question. Like, so, you know, I, I definitely like made it [00:45:00] as basic as possible when I had my excuse of why I was out. And. That's another reason why, and I still continue it, where I do not give more information, so then people, I send that message that I'm not going to talk about my private life, like, I was that person that didn't even put, even before I worked at my current job, I don't put pictures of my wife up on my desk, I don't share that with my clients, I'm very boundary that way, because I don't want to, I don't want people to ask about that.

Jai: So I think I had sent the message that people didn't really ask. And I also think at least when I was going through my bottom surgery, the program that I was in, like, I think people were pretty, they knew to be very careful to ask about private medical. Even though they were curious, I'm sure, but yeah, I didn't really have to quote unquote lie.

Jai: I had to lie more to, like, other people around my scar when it was really visible. But yeah, that's always uncomfortable.[00:46:00]

Jackal: Mm-Hmm.

Kai: Thank you. So you've talked a little bit about your life, your career. You have a sweetheart. What's your life like now ? Paint a picture for us.

Jai: Okay. So, strangely enough, I went from having no trans guy friends but now most of my friends are trans guys. And I think it started when I knew that I was really isolated. And I was, and they had this Retreat and it's funny because I'm a social worker, but I'm a huge introvert And so I was like, oh going to a retreat has a lot of people for like three days non stop, you know But I was like I need

Jackal: A, a trans retreat. I'm sorry. A trans retreat.

Jai: it was a trans retreat.

Jai: It was transmission and I remember like I just kind of was like i'm gonna go and it was the best thing I could have ever done so now i've got from there we started building because I started, actually, we started to like identify, there was a lot of guys that were stealth, you know and didn't have community and we made [00:47:00] our own community and we've stayed a community, actually, us guys for like, I want to say it's been seven years and we would have barbecues and we don't publicize it because, Because a lot of times what we're trying to do is reach out to guys that are stealth and need community but aren't, don't want to like be on like a post or anything, so we do have a good group of guy friends and our wives our friends or their significant others, our friends we go on trips together and I have a great job. You know, my wife and I are thriving at our jobs and so we're we're focused on that because I want to I want to retire early

Kai: Oh,

Jai: we've had, even before transitioning, my wife and I both had challenging childhoods and so we're tired. And so we're like, at this point, like Jackal said, it's like catch up time. And [00:48:00] even though we have a shorter period of time to catch up, but we're going to, we're going to. You know, I'm doing a lot of investing classes just cause tell me the tricks of the trade And so that's what i'm focusing on right now is like i'm like the most boring I always say that when i'm at work i'm like the most boring person and people are like no No, you're not boring.

Jai: I'm like, no, no. No, I want to be boring Like my life has been so exciting That i'm like i'm okay with boring. I want simple. That's why I put in my life bio I have a simple quiet life. We're both super happy to have that and we want to retire early so we can have the last part of our journey.

Jai: Just be fun.

Kai: That sounds amazing, real quick, just going back to the connection that you have, you've created community with lower disclosing guys or stealth guys. And something about that is important to you. And I can only guess, talk to us a little bit about the importance of that [00:49:00] connection and that shared time y'all have.

Jai: First I feel good creating that safe space that feels, that feels good because I know how it felt to me to have that, to have a safe space. And so it's good to create that safe space. We, our conversations aren't all around trans stuff, and, it comes in because that is part of our life, right?

Jai: And it does affect us in certain ways, , like, the other day, We were talking about taking shots, injections for like 15 years or whatever, 12, 15 years or 17 years and how that can affect you. Okay. Oh, you know what? I do sub q now. Have you tried sub q? Have you tried gel?

Jai: You know, because we don't always have our finger on the most current stuff. so it's like being able to share those resources with each other. Like some people didn't even realize there were. That there was an option to do sub Q. But that's the most common practice now. [00:50:00] I think a lot of trans guys do do sub Q, so it's just a space where we can share resources that you don't necessarily have to be emerged in the community to like, know, but we have, there's a space for that.

Jai: But a lot of times, we were at a function yesterday, we were at a housewarming yesterday, and the conversations were around buying a home, and Renovating it and they retired and they're like, we're going to need a caregiver. What are you planning to do and how do you think that I'm just like conversations around that and sharing resources around long term care.

Jai: I mean, this is important stuff for us to talk about.

Kai: definitely, definitely. And thank you. You've talked about. A lot of things to be proud of and some of the accomplishments that you've made buying a house, really establishing yourself in a career. What else, what are some other things that you're really proud of?

Jai: I think, I'm, I'm proud of the fact that, you know, I still, [00:51:00] I feel like I still give back to my, to the community. I went really gung ho at one point and I was super busy. I was doing conferences all over. I was doing workshops at retreats. I actually helped, I helped put together the first API trans retreat. I was one of the co founders on that. And so I'm proud that I'm able, because at that point even though I'm, I felt like that was a really important project to have. That was like a first.

Jackal: Do you know Willie Wilkinson then?

Jai: yeah, yeah, for a long time. Yeah, we did it together. Yeah.

Kai: Why was it important? Why was it important? To, to have an API retreat or conference.

Jai: I don't really see a lot of spaces like that. And I think on a personal level I'm not really connected to my Sri Lankan culture, but it's definitely important. [00:52:00] And it's definitely made an impact on me. And I think I just, I think visibility, I'm also mixed race. And I think You know, showing up in a community like that saying mixed and saying like you don't have to be, you know, one type of Asian because I remember being told in college by a, from my classmate. Oh, you're not really Asian. I'm like, nah, last time I checked, Sri Lankan's Asian. She's not really Asian, like, and she was Korean and I was like, oh, okay, ouch. But just to, I think representation, I think it was really important to like be able to visibly be a mixed race. Sri Lankan also isn't a very common you know, there's not much visibility around that.

Jai: So I just, I just thought, I thought, you know, visibility and also I'm a great coordinator. That's like my expertise. I'm really great at coordinating. I wasn't trying to like toot my own horn, but that's one of my things that I'm good at. [00:53:00] I'm really great at coordinating. And so I felt like I was able to really be able to give back,

Kai: That's great. You can toot away, Jai. Yeah, bring it.

Jai: thanks.

Jackal: we'll toot for you if you don't.

Kai: also describing, you know, some of us are more present and more active and we have periods of where we sort of like blend more, into the world and are a little bit less active because we're tired or we're just, we're making space for other folks. And I think, you know, raising current issues about healthcare and long-term care for us is so important I go to these meetings with providers who actually prescribe hormones, so medical folks, and I'm in that meeting because it's important for me to understand what's current and that shit's changed since the 90s. So like you're exactly right, how they administer T, how they start people on T, how they monitor you over time, the different applications and methods, and they are getting some information [00:54:00] about long term effects, and just what we should screen for and things like that.

Kai: I'm so glad you have that resource and that you have each other for all of the things, whether you're remodeling a bathroom or figuring out how you're going to retire. And you talked about that. You're planning ahead right now and you're thinking about your future.

Kai: How do you imagine it'll be? You've worked your asses off. You've had really, you've overcome a lot, you and your sweetie. And what's your life going to be like? How do you imagine it'll be in the future?

Jai: Oh, gosh. Okay. So I'm going to dream big. But you know, the way I'm imagining it is at that point, we just get to have fun, which, you know, so our house is set up where like there are no stairs. So it's flat. We redid our bathroom. So we took out the bathtub. So there's no bathtub. I know this is

Kai: That's

Jai: silly things to bring up, but it's important. And Yeah, I just, we'd love to I'm looking at Mexico, I'd love to do six months in Mexico, I'd like to do six [00:55:00] months here just being able to, I love to work on my house, DIY projects we'd like to go dancing more, I mean we can do some of that stuff now, but I feel like, We gotta kind of have our head in the game right now, working on like our future stuff, but definitely more play.

Jai: Like, you know, I've never done pickleball, and all my buddies are talking about pickleball.

Kai: I think you have to do it. You got to wait till you're at least 50, I think.

Jai: Right?

Kai: Maybe 55.

Jai: It looks so much fun and I'm like, I want to do pickleball, you know, just things like that. Like just letting go. I think that's, that's what I want to say. I want, I'm looking forward to just letting go and just being like, I'm at this point in my life where everything's set in place. Now I can just let go and just coast into old age.

Kai: You're kind of a mission driven guy. You've [00:56:00] been doing a lot of, you've been of service so much and thank you for your service, like along the way. What do you imagine it's going to be like to shift that? How do you think it may shift in the future, if it will?

Jai: You know, I think that I'm always going to want to be of service and actually, because right now, like you said, Kai, earlier, it's true. I actually have calmed down a little bit. Like, I took a break from doing all the workshops and things like that to kind of focus back on myself. And now I'm kind of resurfacing again where I'm going to be doing another workshop at a retreat And I talk at classrooms and stuff, but I think that I think that when I'm in retirement, I'm going to have more space.

Jai: There's a big need for, there's a lot of services I've noticed, because I'm on the Kaiser Transgender Advisor Board, and there's a lot of services, programs towards trans youth, but we really do need more program and services to be focused towards. Trans men that are aging [00:57:00] and they're, yeah,

Kai: I don't even know if there is a service, like if there's even one, you know?

Jai: There's

Jackal: Not even.

Kai: Yeah, you're right. Thinking about our older, our older transpa's, you know, and just for

Jai: yeah,

Kai: Yeah,

Jai: outreach because of isolation. Let's check in ahead of time. Can we create a service where it's like, hey, are you prepared for this? Start doing outreach ahead of time. Doing seminars ahead of time. Like, what do we need to talk about? What kind of legal paperwork do we need to talk about?

Jai: You know, geared towards trans men or trans folks, maybe in general. Aging.

Jackal: Hmm.

Kai: I kind of want to hear a little bit more about the fun part. So you're going to do, you're tinkering around your house. You're thinking ahead about how to like rile shit up and get more, get more support for older guys and, and, and that's great.

Kai: What else do you think you might be doing besides pickleball?

Jai: I want to travel.

Kai: Mmm.

Jai: So we didn't get to travel a [00:58:00] lot over, over these years. We haven't been able to travel a whole lot. But I would love, we'd love to do travel. And read. I read a ton. It's all research. It's like I'm always researching something. And but I'd love to just be able to read for fun. Like just be able to sit down and read for fun. I love coffee shops. I'm a big coffee shop person.

Kai: Come up to the Northwest, visit. We got them all there, everywhere. Same with the bay.

Jai: Yeah, it's exactly you have good some good coffee shops up there.

Kai: Yo, yeah,

Jackal: Seattle's best, you know, Starbucks originated there, like,

Kai: no, we haven't,

Jackal: and we have tiny little ones that are like better than the corporates. Hmm.

Kai: yeah,

Jai: yeah, we like great artwork on this on the walls I mean I just love those kind of those scenes. I'd love to write more. Yeah, I think just. tinkering around, like I, I would love to learn some languages, some [00:59:00] more languages, I could keep going on, I'm not ready just to sit down and watch TV all day, but I mean, just, Do things that I want to do instead of I need to do to earn a living even though I love my job I do it's really important what I do.

Jai: I work with homeless veterans but and I do love what I do, but it'd be nice to be able to do things on my terms when I want to

Kai: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think so many times people will say things like, I don't want this, I don't want to work anymore. And it's like, well, what are you going to do instead? How else are you going to fill your time? And I really appreciate, I like want to thank you for just imagining that with us and sharing that.

Kai: It sounds like you've got lots of really cool dreams and I'm a hundred percent with you there.

Jai: and that may change, but at this point, it sounds like it's like a good goal to have.

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: It's an amazing goal to have. So we're getting close to the end of this part before I jump into the next question.

Jackal: So what would you say to newer [01:00:00] trans and non binary folk?

Jai: I would say that first and foremost, there's not one way of transitioning or being. You're going to get messages in the media, you're going to get messages through your community because we're an opinionated community. And you're going to get messages from your friends, but there's not one way of transitioning, we're all really, really unique.

Jai: We all have our own backgrounds. And I would say, follow your gut instinct of who you want to be. Now, yes, I think it's important to have mentors. And I think it's important to be, which brings me to the next thing. We are each other's best resources. There's, you can go online. But I think the best, our best resources are each other.

Jai: We're gonna, I mean, I know that [01:01:00] have experts in the field, but not even they have all the information. So it's really important to reach out and to, and to, to ask others about what their experience has been. And so that I would say follow your own road map, you know, we're all individuals and to make sure that, you reach out to each other, because we are each other's best resources.

Kai: You're tying it back to when you were talking about your own transition and what you were, what you heard, and you're an example of this, that you forged your own path. You said, Hey, I'm going to take what I can, I'm going to connect with folks and get them.

Kai: It's very helpful. Y'all are great. And I'm still gonna. Move forward at my pace in the way that I want to do it and then find support as I need it.

Jackal: Jai, what do you think we should have asked that we didn't any last words of wisdom?

Jai: So, you know what topic I haven't talked about a lot with, with guys and [01:02:00] don't get asked a lot, is, is relationships with cis men.

Jackal: Okay. Yeah.

Jai: you know, it's one of the, it's one of the frontiers that I have not ventured, like, not talking about sexual relationship, but actual, like, friendship relationships with cis men in general,, it's something that I know, I know cis guys, of course and I work with them, and I go to the gym with them, and, and, and they're great.

Jai: You know, guys are, you know, I've met some really awesome guys, but to actually form a good relationship with them, I haven't had that yet. And I think that'd be a really great topic because I don't have it, but I think there's some fear around cis men, and, like, how do you navigate that, and there's some stereotypes around that, and I would think it'd be just such a cool conversation to have.

Kai: I, that's like a huge can of worms, right? Because you're right. Like cis men harms people. And they harm other men, they harm other folks. And I [01:03:00] can say it's a very rewarding experience having a very close friend who I absolutely love, who's a special kind of guy who, it's very special bond. And what do you think's getting in the way? Or is it safety concerns? I mean, well founded safety concerns. What do you think's gotten in the way for you?

Jai: I don't have the fear, I think it's the, me getting in my own head about, because I've just navigated this world as a trans guy, my, my own way of what I think. I want to present masculinity as even as a, so I got this like mix of like social work,

Kai: The Hulk.

Jai: yeah, like the social work, the weight lift, I just kind of blend it all in, you know?

Jai: And I don't know how that comes across to cis men. So I think that's my own stuff, are they judgmental? I won't name names, but I known some guys that are in my family that are like very, very progressive, but they still have old school ways of thinking.

Jai: So it's like that weird, [01:04:00] like, I'm like, we're cool. We're cool. We're cool. Until I hear that weird stereotype, stereotypical kind of comments. And I'm like, oh, okay, see, now, now, now, see, we're doing so well. And then it just kind of

Kai: No, and I do think, I think so much of that is socialization and just not ever having been challenged or questioned or even so many blind spots. You're absolutely right. It's been a challenge. Kind of the cost of admission, right? Being a friend with somebody, especially like a white dude, you know, a white cis guy.

Kai: So I hear you there. Thank you for sharing that.

Jackal: Yeah, thank you. And thank you so much for being on our show. We are going to end this segment and we're going to go on to our bonus questions. So don't hang up, but it was really, really nice to have you on here. I'm so thankful that Jack recommended you to us and that you accepted our invitation.

Kai: Definitely.

Jai: for having me, and thanks for all that you guys do.

Jackal: Thank you.

Jackal: BONUS

Kai: Jackal, what did you think of today's interview with Jay?

Jackal: I really enjoyed it. He gave me a lot of food for thought [01:05:00] for season five and the questions. The thing that one of the things that struck me, and it comes up, it's come up a few times, but, the sense of isolation that we have in the beginning that even though you're around community, even though he's part of the Lou Sullivan discussion group, even though he lives in San Francisco or adjacent to San Francisco that sense of isolation.

Jackal: So it can happen anywhere, even if it's in a bigger LGBT hub kind of thing. It just, I don't know why it strikes me as maybe sad. But it

Jackal: happens everywhere.

Kai: Yeah. And I think that he found some folks that he connected with to a degree and then he, had to work really hard to get information. Back in the day when you pick up a phone and he discussed like the rejections that he got along the way, when he was trying to access care and then how that changed after legislation was passed to cover lower surgeries and that experience, yeah, he did a nice job.

Kai: I [01:06:00] think that bond that he shares with trans men of color, men of trans experience of color, , it sounds so important to who he is as a person and that connection to other brothers is so key, and that again has come up over time and representation, like how he manages representation, but is more present facing and doing advocacy and all the different organizing and also having periods where he's not quite as visible.

Jackal: And just that connection to other stealth men and trying to have a commitment to stealth men in our community, like I think is really important. And I've struggled with this question, right? Because as he articulated, it's like they too want to expand their group and include more stealth men.

Jackal: But how do you do that when, how do you encourage stealth men to join a stealth group without outing them?

Kai: Yeah,

Jackal: know, I mean, it's, it's a complicated question, so it was really interesting. I was [01:07:00] really excited to hear about that, that they were able to have this long lasting friendship , and do things in general.

Jackal: That was, that was very heartwarming. Yeah. Yeah.

Kai: person and somebody who

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: I thought just to be able to connect with other men of trans experience of color. And have that shared experience and then being really selective about who you bring in, who you let in. I thought his descriptions of how he does that were really nice.

Kai: And I really liked how he tied it to his family upbringing and cultural norms in his families of origin. Both his mom and dad side. I'm fascinated by how the hell did his parents meet? know, from like remote Italy to like Sri Lankan village.

Kai: And the other thing that he brought up, we didn't expand on it much, but when he was a child the cultural norm in his family for girls was to be of service to the men and to present [01:08:00] in a way where your hair is long and it's just a symbol of femininity.

Kai: That was really interesting because He really didn't want to do that, and his relationship with his father his father's responses to Jay's masculinity. I think that's a really interesting story there.

Kai: There were lots of places we could have asked more about, and we did our best to stay tied to stealth and the disclosure aspect.

Jackal: The other thing that struck me was the discussion about friendships with CIS men. And I really would like to explore that more in our Upcoming seasons, because I think it's a very, very interesting question. And I think one of the things, okay, there's a couple of things. One, I think that we still have stereotypes when we say CIS men and the imagery that that brings up for us, you know, it can be different in each of us, but like some of it is, that we have fear around it, that there's going to be violence, but [01:09:00] cisgendered men present in all kinds of ways. And so delving into what cis, cisgendered men relationship, friendships with us as trans men, how we experience that and what we're experiencing, I think would be a very interesting discussion.

Kai: Yeah, that's a big one. I think it's, we're going back into the way back time machine,

Jackal: Way back time machine.

Kai: thinking about the movie, you don't know Dick, which I watched a few months ago. You can get it on Vimeo. James Green talks about his friendship with a cis guy who's in his drumming circle. I distinctly remember that. I even think it was men's drumming circle and James was part of it and they were friends for a while and they talk about how And when James disclosed, and so James talks about the experience, but his friend talks about the experience and how his friend experienced his with James and what it meant to him as himself [01:10:00] as a man, and then how he perceived James and what that meant, so it was a really interesting part of that movie.

Kai: And then he had so many Achievements over his young life, Jay and he's really worked hard to live life on his terms as best he can with a lot of hard work along the way. I really like how he described the process of obtaining medical care and getting through that whole lower surgery process and how grueling that was and how now that chapter is behind him and how proud he is of that. And now he's just toiling away, trying to pack money away and get ready for retirement, so that he can have fun and live his life. And I really like hearing about how he partners with his sweetie and leans on his friends, the men of trans experience friends that he had, they're talking about this stuff.

Kai: They're talking about preparing. I really like how he talked about his life cycle and getting ready for next steps and very accomplished.

Jackal: was a great interview for [01:11:00] sure.

Jackal: Good job.

Kai: Good job.

Jackal: And now it's time for Transponder. So today's Trans Joy segment is all about June, because we're right around the corner from all the Pride events that are happening worldwide, and we want to give a couple of shoutouts. So today is May 18th, and in Kansas City, they're having their Transponder. It's called Under the Sea.

Jackal: It's happening from 7 p. m. tonight to 11 p. m. And we're very excited for them. We hope it goes very well. It's at the Spirit of Hope MCC Ballroom. Shout out to Kansas City. In Colorado Springs, Pride's inside out and Queer Prom will be on June 1st. All ages are welcome to celebrate your LQIA two plus pride in this Safe and Sober affirming fun festival.

Jackal: [01:12:00] It's at Hillside Community Center from 11:00 AM to 3:00 PM but if you're looking for something more exotic and global, you can go to the ig lta.org website to find some coupons for your travel. One event is Love and Liberty 2024. Redeemable until June 15th of this year. And it's on the Gulf of Thailand.

Jackal: Escape to an unforgettable paradise where luxury and romance intertwined seamlessly. So if you can afford to go to Thailand this year. Love and Liberty 2024. That's just a few of the events happening around the world. So, trans joy, everybody. Go find what you love. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact Kira at our Instagram page, at Transmasculine Podcast.

Jackal: We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing [01:13:00] from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests, who share their insight, Expertise and heartfelt stories. We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. Good job today. Jekyll. Good job to you. for listening to today's podcast.

Jackal: Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before. the year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience. We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority.

Jackal: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids. We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories.

Jackal: We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be [01:14:00] one small part of our community. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, we monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw up. We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time.

Jackal: As we enter season four, we are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests. We do not represent any outside entity.

Jackal: Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know. Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform.

Jackal: You can find us On Instagram, trans Masculine Podcast on X, formerly [01:15:00] Twitter at podcast, stealth on YouTube, stealth a Transmasculine podcast. And be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast.com. Thank you for joining us. Until next time.