Carter, the Co-Founder and Executive Director of the National Black Trans Advocacy Coalition (BTAC), has played a pivotal role in advancing the rights and well-being of Black transgender individuals. As a transgender man who understands the challenges of marginalized communities firsthand, Carter established BTAC in 2011, making it the first national, Black trans-led non-profit organization.

His unwavering commitment to ending violence, addressing HIV disparities, combating employment discrimination, and tackling other critical issues faced by Black transgender people has been the driving force behind BTAC’s impactful initiatives. With over a decade of dedicated engagement with transgender communities, Carter Brown’s leadership has elevated BTAC’s community organizing and programming to an indispensable position within the quest for equality.

Notably, Carter co-authored the U.S. Trans Survey, a groundbreaking effort comprehensively highlighting the economic, health, and social disparities experienced by nearly 28,000 transgender individuals nationwide. His recent achievements include testifying before U.S. Congress in support of the Equality Act, a vital amendment to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include protections for transgender people.

Carter’s tireless advocacy and leadership continue to be instrumental in advancing equity for Black transgender individuals and the broader LGBTQ+ community.

Through his lived experiences as a Black Trans man, Carter Brown was compelled to create Black Transmen, Inc.

Carter Brown is the Founder and National Director of Black Transmen, Inc. the first national nonprofit organization founded for the empowerment, advocacy, and equality for black transmen. Brown, of Dallas, Texas studied Psychology and Journalism at the University of Texas in Arlington, Texas.Carter Brown is dedicated to making change in the lives of the many men of his likeness, black transmen. By helping to build stronger men, it will inevitably build stronger families, stronger communities and a stronger society.

Brown was compelled to help birth and build the organization, Black Transmen Inc. from the support and information he saw lacking in his own trans experience, versus that of other ethnicities and of the LGBT community. It is a known and statistical fact that societal challenges for an African American male exist. It is also well known that negative stereotypes of Black men have overhang stagnantly for generations. Brown wants to make his contribution to ending the cycle and diminishing the stereotypes by exposing the world to another face of the Black man.

Carter Brown is dedicated to making change in the lives of the many men of his likeness, black transmen. By helping to build stronger men, it will inevitably build stronger families, stronger communities and a stronger society.

Brown’s most recent accomplishments include celebrating the 8th year of the only National Black Trans Advocacy conference and also testifying before U.S. Congress in support of the Equality Act, an amendment to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include protections for transgender people.

Carter Main Interview Edited

Jackal: [00:00:00] I'm

Jackal: stealth, a trans masculine podcast. 

Kai: I'm Jackal. And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Kai: The name of our 

Jackal: show highlights two important facts that one, for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence. And that due to that, Our stories are very often overlooked. 

Kai: We want our audience to know that we ourselves are a part of this generation of transmasculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our transmasculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives, each of us [00:01:00] has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways. 

Jackal: As humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced, We are caretakers, we are parents, we are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post transition. 

Kai: If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms. These are trying times and we want to acknowledge that here in the States and throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities.

Kai: Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast. com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us. 

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living [00:02:00] community. We are healthy.

Jackal: We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved and we welcome you to our stories. We want to give a content warning for this episode. There is talk about suicide and mental health issues. 

Kai: Remember, you can go to our website transmasculinepodcast. com for resources for crisis lines, including the Trevor Project, Trans Lifeline, and Suicide Prevention Lifeline.

Kai: transmasculinepodcast. com.

Shawn Aaron: Hey, this is Shawn Aaron. He, him, his. And I'm here to tell you about them boys podcast. I'm the host of them boys podcast. And as a black queer trans man, the podcast amplifies the voices of other trans men of color as we share our transition stories. The podcast not only amplifies the voices of trans men of color, but it raises awareness And conversations around our lived experiences.

Shawn Aaron: You can [00:03:00] listen to the podcast by going to themboys. org forward slash podcast. That's D E M B O I S. org forward slash podcast. I hope to have you join us on the next episode.

Jackal: Happy holidays.

Jackal: Happy holidays. Make it stop. You love my singing. I do. I do 

Kai: love your singing. 

Jackal: Hey, so we're still before the holidays now, but you always have a Thanksgiving Friendsgiving kind of event at your house. Don't you? 

Kai: Yes, yes, we do. This is going to be our fourth annual Friendsgiving. Yeah, we're really excited. I hope you can come one day.

Kai: It's really special. We have friends over, chosen family, and it's gotten big. There's 20 of us and it's in the winter. We'd started it [00:04:00] during COVID y times, so we had to be really careful. But it's been really nice. It's a potluck style. So like we do the turkey and the big, the main things, but people bring side dishes We have so much food and I, we do two things a year.

Kai: We do that and we do the 4th of July party. So I'm really excited about it. I love food. 

Jackal: And baking too. You're really nice. Good baker. Do you, have you expanded? I know you did cookies, but I saw some picture of cupcakes recently. 

Kai: Oh yeah. I didn't mention that I volunteer for the For goodness cakes and I bake birthday cakes for people.

Kai: Yeah, for the last year, plus there's an organization called for goodness cakes, and it was started by a woman in LA who started baking birthday cakes for kids and youth who haven't ever had them or may not be connected to their family, or there may be an emplacement or they were removed from their homes or they're in detention, though you can volunteer to bake cakes for them.

Kai: And I wanted to learn how to be a better cake baker. And one of my friends told [00:05:00] me about it actually, and I was like, I have to check that out. So Yeah, it sounds right up your alley, more 

Jackal: than one level, right? Like the baking level is just one thing, but like your heart, your dedication to youth, like this is right up Kai's alley.

Kai: It's super fun. And so I'm not a great decorator and I want to learn how to do that. So I partner with. Rivers partner, and he's teaching me how to decorate. And what we do is we deliver them to these organizations. We don't ever meet the kids 

Jackal: yeah, that's awesome. You can make me a cake because we're having birthdays coming up too.

Jackal: This is our In fact, I think this episode is dropping on my birthday. Today is December 22nd, and in the future, this is my 

Kai: birthday. Happy 

Jackal: birthday. 

Kai: Thank you. Big birthday this year, Jackal. Yeah, big one for 

Jackal: you too. Yeah, we're turning 6 0 this year, mister. Oh my god. I know, right? Oh my god. How does it feel?

Jackal: How does it feel? Your birthday's gonna be in a week or so. It just sounds Old? 

Kai: [00:06:00] Yeah. 

Jackal: It does. Yeah. 

Kai: Yeah. Sixty. 

Jackal: Yeah. Sixty. It does feel like you're getting up there. Right? I just, I still feel so young at heart. I didn't feel it in my body. I have to, I do feel that there are aches and pains that I didn't have 10 or 20 years ago.

Jackal: But just to feel. This good living is really important to me. I do feel like it's a gift and I actually might start a PhD program next year. Oh yeah. Like just started at 60. It's only going to take you five to 10 years. I'll get a PhD by the time I'm 70, but it was a goal and it's still a goal. Yeah. What are you doing?

Jackal: Are you doing anything for the holidays? Are you going to see your family or anything? 

Kai: Over Christmas time, we used to go home to San Francisco and my mom was living and my dad and mom were still living in San Francisco and they're not anymore. So my dad's in assisted living in California and visiting is a lot different.[00:07:00] 

Kai: And I hate traveling during the holidays. Actually, I hate flying. It's such a mess, but yeah, I'm not sure what we're going to do for Christmas. We had everybody up last year. So my family actually came up here for the first time. Yeah, we had a place where we could host and My dad doesn't want to fly. He just turned 94.

Kai: So he's, I'm done flying. It was really exhausting and stressful. So I don't know. What are you going to do, Jackal? What's on your list? So 

Jackal: my dad passed away in October of 2022 and my brother wanted to build a model train set. So we started doing that, I think in November from scratch, like building the table and everything, and he had the layout and blah, blah, blah.

Jackal: So I have spent a lot of time with my brother and especially over The Christmas holiday, and we have worked on that a little bit. And so that's, again, what I'm going to go do. I'm going to actually spend my birthday, probably really low key with my brother. We'll have a week together. We'll watch a lot of football because my brother's a huge football fan and we like to do that together.

Jackal: [00:08:00] And then we'll work on decorating his house for Christmas, maybe buy one or two Christmas gifts to exchange and then work on that train set, which is always really fun. 

Kai: You're a great cook though. You've 

Jackal: cooked in the past for your family. I probably will cook. I can cook. I do not like to cook. Oh, okay.

Jackal: That's, that's the difference, right? I can cook. I am not going to deny that I can make a good meal if I set my mind to it, 

but 

Jackal: it's not my joy. Like it's not like you and other people I know, it's like your love language, right? It's not my love language at all. Like singing is my love language, I'll sing to you.

Kai: That's different. It's different. One thing, I wonder if it's, I dunno, I'm just guessing you had to cook cause you were a parent. You raise people and I remember my mom just being like, this is sucky. She didn't want to cook for years after launching us. Like I've cooked for y'all and my, all that shit.

Kai: Cause it was a job. It was a have to, you know, was it because you had to do it a lot or? I 

Jackal: don't. [00:09:00] I don't really remember. I don't think it was right then that I lost the desire. It just, sometimes it's about circumstance. Like right now in the home that I live in, it doesn't even have an oven.

Jackal: It's not like a full stove. And so it's just really not convenient. 

When 

Jackal: I go to my brother's house, I like to cook because he has like the full setup, the full kitchen. It's a really big open space. Your house, your kitchen, it would be really nice to be able to cook there, but I'm very much, I'm very much about the space, right?

Jackal: My master's is in geography and I'm a human geographer. So I always talk about how people relate to space and me in a kitchen that isn't what I want the kitchen to be is like, forget it. I don't want to cook in here. 

Kai: Yeah, it does make a really big difference. 

Jackal: Yeah. 

Kai: I think you should share photos of your trains.

Kai: You remember Beetlejuice? The movie Beetlejuice, I haven't seen the second one. I heard it wasn't, I heard it wasn't as great as the first one, but [00:10:00] then I watched the first one again and I was like, yes, the problematic relationship thing with this 16 year old. But anyway, the train set they had in there was pretty big.

Kai: Is it like that scale? I cannot tell you because I don't remember that. It was the early, it was late nineties. I 

Jackal: think 

Kai: eighties, early, early eighties or late eighties. 

Jackal: Pardon me. 

Kai: Yeah. 

Jackal: Yeah. I was telling my brother that we should do some more videos of in progress and things like that. Yeah. 

Kai: Happy holidays.

Kai: Happy holidays to you. 

Jackal: Yeah. Do you have any resolutions coming up? 

Kai: Oh God. I haven't even thought about it. Just basically, hopefully we'll have a very kind administration to us and we'll keep doing podcast and keep kicking, keep kicking and my resolution is to stay connected. Yeah. Yeah. 

Jackal: That's 

Kai: a good resolution.

Kai: Yeah, how 

Jackal: about you? I'll ditto you. I think staying connected is really good. Staying positive, not getting discouraged, regardless. I'm just going to say it that way, regardless, [00:11:00] and I'm moving forward. 

Kai: Happy holidays, everybody. Happy New Year. Thank you for your support. Stay connected. Stay safe. 

Adam: Today's interview is with Carter.

Adam: Carter is the founder and national director of Black Trans Men, Inc., the first national non profit organization dedicated to the empowerment, advocacy, and equality of Black trans men. Carter was compelled to help birth and build the organization due to the lack of resources and support he experienced during his own transition versus what he saw available at the time for men of other ethnicities.

Adam: Since founding the organization, Carter has dedicated his life to ending the cycle of racial inequity, and he sees the role of Black trans men as integral to this process, specifically in breaking the destructive stereotypes of Black men held by our society. In Carter's vision of the world, stronger Black men will inevitably build stronger families, stronger communities, and a stronger society at large.

Adam: Carter's most recent accomplishments include [00:12:00] celebrating the 11th year of the National Black Trans Advocacy Conference and testifying before U. S. Congress in support of the Equality Act, an amendment to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include protections for transgender people. His biggest pride, however, is his 23 year marriage to his wife and partner, and witnessing the accomplishments of his now 16 year old daughter.

Adam: Carter's social transversary is 1995, the same as Zan, Rhodes, and Max. He began his medical transition in the year 2000, the same as Marty, Kyle, Curtis, Zion, Rocco, Thomas, Alexander, and Cyrus. So go check out our website to see what momentous events happened in those years. I do want to take this moment to remind folks that the number one hit for 1995 was the theme song for the movie Dangerous Minds, Coolio's Gangsta's Paradise.

Adam: However, we are going to go further back in time and honor Carter's episode with a song by black trans man, jazz musician, Wilmer Little Axe Broadnax, God Save [00:13:00] [00:14:00] [00:15:00] America.

Jackal: So welcome back to stealth. Thank you for being with us. We are here with Carter. How are you doing today? Carter?

Carter: I am doing great guys. How are you?

Jackal: I'm fine. We're fine. Thank you very much. Hey, you know, uh, [00:16:00] I, and I have been great fans of yours for a while now. Uh, you are the lead of a very great conference BTAC conference. Um, That is how and why we reached out to you. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Carter: Yeah,

Jackal: yourself.

Carter: sure. Well, I'll lead with myself. I'm Carter Brown and I am the co founder and the executive director of the National Black Trans Advocacy Coalition. We are the first and longest running Black trans led organization that's empowering our community through social advocacy and direct services. Um, one of our biggest programs, as you mentioned, is our annual conference, which happens in Dallas, Texas every year in the last week of April.

Carter: We've been hosting that conference since 2012, and it still remains the only, um, trans conference that centers black, trans and non binary [00:17:00] people, our friends, families, and allies as well. Um, when we had our first conference in 2012, we had about 75 attendees. Most recently in 2024. We had about 500 people attend, and we have people coming from all across the world, guys.

Carter: We've had people come from New Zealand. This past year, we had a guy come from, um, from Africa. Where is he? It skips my mind. I'll come, if he comes back to me, I'll say it. But he came from Africa as well. So, um, you know, just the impact that we can have as a collective. You know, this is not just my thing. It's A community of people that have built, um, connections of empowerment and inspiration over these past over a dozen years. And, you know, the conference is, is, I can't find the words to say how [00:18:00] powerful and how meaningful it is. Uh, for the community that we center in that space. So I definitely want to, um, plug the conference.

Carter: It's coming up April 22nd of 2025. Again, it's going to be here in Dallas, Texas, and we invite everyone. Again, we center black and trans people and making sure that they have, um, a safe space to be in community with one another. And that we're able to provide education to them and awareness, um, and, and bring more visibility to our community.

Carter: But we're absolutely about love. We're about unity and we're about allies coming together for the advancement of us all. So everybody is invited and we're all welcome. Hope to see you there.

Jackal: We hope to be there. We actually talked about maybe coming to your, uh, event, uh, last year, a couple of years ago, and, um, we, we just couldn't make it [00:19:00] work financially for us, but, uh, both Kai and I are very excited to participate in at least, donate to the advertisement and things like that, that make it happen.

Jackal: So we're very proud of you and we're so excited that this has been a successful event and I just hope it keeps going forever.

Carter: Thank you so much,

Kai: would you mind, I know this is off script, but would you mind just talking about the origin story? , how did you come together to decide to do this? And then also I think you're connected to Black Trans Men, and can you just chat a little bit about that for

Carter: Yeah, absolutely. So, black trans man is actually the father of the organization. Um, originally we started as black trans man and that was just prompted from my own experiences as a black transgender man. Um, I began my journey, stealth. Um, and that was just kind of by default, as you guys know, probably from your own lived experiences.

Carter: When we're talking 10, 12 years ago, the landscape was nothing like it is now. We saw ourselves on like [00:20:00] Jerry Springer or, uh, something like that. But other than that, there was no visibility really. Um, and so, you know, I experienced In my own journey, discrimination in the workplace, and I was fired for being trans.

Carter: And that, um, that experience really did, uh, just change the course of my life, um, in so many ways. Most prominently, that is what compelled me to start the organization because when I was fired for being trans, it really left me in a place, an unfamiliar place of just not really knowing where to go or who to go to or how to navigate from there.

Carter: Um, having lived stealth for so long, I just didn't know how to live trans, honestly. That was a private thing, and I only operated privately as trans, but I didn't know how to live out loud as trans. And I didn't have a guide of another trans man or even a trans woman to say, Hey, [00:21:00] these are your rights in the workplace, or, you know, Do this to counter the negative feelings you're having.

Carter: This is something you could do to turn it into a positive. I didn't have any of that, but I desperately needed it because my mental health was deteriorating. I felt like at that point, you know, although I transitioned to liberate myself, I now was in a position where me living authentically was a threat to my livelihood.

Carter: How do you work around that?

Jackal: Right.

Carter: And so I really needed community. I really needed to find other black trans men. Not just the trans man, but a black trans man that could really help me navigate, um, life. Things living as a trans person. And so that's really what compelled me to start the organization for black trans men.

Carter: I went on social media, and I just started a private group called black trans men, and I wanted to find them. And sure enough, we all found each other by navigating to that group and it was just unanimous that many of us thought that [00:22:00] we were the only ones. And as we continue to talk. To one another, you know, over the social media.

Carter: Um, and some of us even became great friends and, you know, jumping off of social media and becoming friends in real life. And we all just want a community. And I believe it was, uh, Reverend Louis Mitchell, who was a part of the group. And he just said, you know, Hey, we need to have a conference. Everybody needs together.

Carter: And we all need to, you know, just. Um, and so I think that's what we're trying to do. I think that it's important for us to be in each other's company. This is so rich. So much love and inspiration. You know, Um, Relationship building that we're doing on social media. That would be the way to bring it to life.

Carter: And so that was the inspiration for us to start, to start having conferences in 2012 after our first year. Um, of, of starting as a nonprofit organization. And since then, it's been history.

Jackal: Thank you so much for your work.

Kai: Thank you for sharing that and there, there are lots of places we're going to go today. We're going to talk about low to non disclosing and stealth and all [00:23:00] that. And before we, before we jump into that, um, and also the importance of connecting with community and finding representation within community.

Kai: Um, one of the things that we always want to hear is like, how did you even find out about trans masculine identities, Carter?

Carter: Um, well, I first found out about trans masculine identities. Like I said, on TV, it was, uh, to be specific, it was. It was Jerry Springer. There was a character on there and he was a, uh, he was a black trans man. That was the first black trans man that I'd ever seen.

Kai: Wow.

Carter: I was just so awed that not only did this person look like me because I already presented masculine, but I didn't know what trans masculine identity was.

Carter: I knew about, you know, uh, transvestite and trans women and, you know, cross dressing and all those things, but there was nothing to define me. Um, but when I saw that person, I saw myself [00:24:00] and I knew that there was a possibility that I could actually be who I think I am. Um, and that was really a revelation for me.

Carter: So just, you know, that prompted me to, you know, go on the Internet. Back then we didn't have laptops and phones and old computers. I went to the public library and researched. Um, so just finding online resources, um, from there. very much. From once I got online, there were Yahoo groups, and I was able to, uh, find a group of and that was really awesome.

Jackal: were called back then.

Carter: That's real call back there, which stood for female to male and the guys in there. Um, we're amazing. I learned so much just about navigating the transition, everything from getting your name changed to starting hormones, the effects of these things, um, some of their experiences as they were socially transitioning.

Carter: And it was really awesome. Um, [00:25:00] but after a while, Kai, I, you know, maybe a month or two, I, I, once I started to get that information and get into my transition, I would come back in the group, you know, just like the guys and say, Hey, this happened today, you know, something we could celebrate. Hey, I had this challenge today.

Carter: You know, can you guys help me? But then my, my conversation started to come back to the group, like, Hey, you know, I, I, I felt a certain way today because. , you know, this lady treated me differently because she was suspicious me of, suspicious of me as a black man. Or, hey, you know, these guys were talking to me a little rougher than I'm used to because they now perceive me as, you know, possibly competition, you know, so, so I was just finding that my experiences in my experiences of masculinity, my new experiences were very different from my counterparts who were all white men.

Carter: Who are all white [00:26:00] trans men, you know, those brothers will come in there and talk about, um, Hey, I got a new promotion at work today and all the respect that they could get now that they were, um, you know, masculine, nobody second guessed them. And, you know, they could command the room and all these wonderful things that I would love to have, but my experience is very different.

Carter: And in that I was able to identify, um, You know, through my own experience, not just statistics and talk, but there was a very different walk for black men in America than there was for white men, and I needed someone who could speak to that, um, not only as a black man, but again, as a black trans man, because there was another layer to my masculinity, um, with my transition.

Kai: Yeah, thank you so much. How did you end up connecting with other Black trans men, Carter?

Carter: Um, just through that, that, uh, group,

Kai: Mm hmm.

Carter: that was the first time I was able to even talk or even see. Such an array of [00:27:00] men, um, like me, but so different, you know? And, uh, as I said, just building those friendships and being able to bring them off of social media. That was the first time after starting that group.

Carter: That was the first time that I ever met another black trans man in person, um, who was a guy who happened to live here in Dallas. Um, I'm going to mention his name because he's, he means so much to me. He was one of the people that helped me start the organization. Um, you know, just putting in the work and getting the word out.

Carter: Um, and his name was Antoine Smith, um, and, and I, I, I have to say his name because he's no longer with us and I want him to live on, um, his legacy. So, yeah, he was one of the first black trans men that I've met in person, and, you know, it was, you know, It's just a phenomenal experience. Since then, I mean, I just feel like I found my tribe, I found my community, and I've also found purpose, um, as part of this community.

Kai: Thank you so much for [00:28:00] sharing that, and thank you for sharing Antoine's name with us, and I'm really glad you got to connect. Um, that gets me. As you connected with folks, and you connected with other trans folks, You definitely recognized their disparities in our experiences and you connected with other black trans men.

Kai: How, what was it like for you day to day? You weren't, in my, in my world, not being socialized as a man, and walking through the world and walking through the world as a white man is, is very different. You're absolutely right. And you weren't socialize as a black man and as you age and you transition that, that experience with walking through the world is so different.

Kai: What was it like for you? Would you mind talking to us a little bit about some specifics about your, how, you started taking testosterone, you socially and medically transitioned, maybe walk us through a little bit of your, of your journey, if you don't mind,

Carter: transition, as I say, started before I even knew what [00:29:00] trans was. And what I mean by that is, I was already, uh, demanding male pronouns, I was already presenting male in my In my dress code, in my, you know, my hair, I always had a ball fade, uh, carried myself. I only used my last name, um, you know, because my first legal name was, uh, feminine, of course.

Carter: I was already living male per se. Um, but of course, with that, there's certain spaces that, you know, you cannot. You know, when I, when legal issues are involved, or, you know, some places that work and so forth and so on, um, so, you know, my, my journey began before I knew about hormones and so forth, but once I was able to, um, so let me backtrack.

Carter: Social transition started, um, when I was about 22. [00:30:00] No, 20. I was 20 years old.

Jackal: What year was that?

Carter: That was, oh man, well, I already revealed my age. So I'm 20. Let's see.

Kai: we got your beat.

Jackal: Yeah, 95. Okay, thank you.

Carter: 95 is when I started my social transition and then I started my medical transition in 2000 and that is, of course, when I was able to get the information from the Yahoo group and the guys in there. And with that, I was able to find a therapist local to me. Um, and she's really awesome. She's about to retire.

Carter: So I went to therapist and, um, it was funny because my 1st, it was funny because I was hesitant to make the 1st visit, although I was so desperate to start my transition to do that. This was the 1st step. I was hesitant because of the stigma around seeking mental health care in the black community.

Carter: And I also [00:31:00] felt like if I go see this person, then that's confirmation that I really am crazy, right? So, but you know, I, I went and that was the best thing that I could have ever done because quite the opposite. It was so affirming in that how I felt about myself was nothing to feel guilty about. In short, you know, and, uh, the funny thing about it was when I went to, uh, her and told her I was there for, uh, you know, gender therapy, she assumed that I was already male and transition into female.

Carter: So

Jackal: Oh my God, that's so,

Carter: And I'm like,

Jackal: many people have that experience, right? It's like, Oh, you want to become a woman? It's like, actually, I don't know.

Carter: No, I'm going the other way. Yeah. And so I started, uh, I saw her. I only had to see her once and then, um, started my hormone therapy and it's, you know, been a go since then.[00:32:00] 

Kai: Did she write you a letter after one session?

Carter: Yes.

Kai: Amazing. Yeah. And you felt affirmed. You felt affirmed.

Carter: Very affirmed.

Kai: That's so good. Because I, I think, you know, during that time period, there was such a gatekeeping and then the standards of care were such that it was much more enforced, enforced, and there was such reluctance on the part of the medical community to follow through unless you had it all your ducks in a row.

Kai: So I'm so glad that she recognized you for who you were and took you at your word.

Carter: She's amazing. Um,

Jackal: you've already talked about this quite a bit and, uh, we're just going to stay here for a second. One of our questions is how do you think your social standings like race and class and, uh, You know, just sexual expression, things like that, religion, uh, impacted your ability to transition. So this for me is particularly interesting because we know Black Lives Matter, [00:33:00] United States, police brutality, becoming a black man.

Jackal: But being a black woman isn't necessarily safe either, you know, like before 1995, you're still living in this like black woman identity. And then you transition to black man. What was your process? Do you think that it impeded your, you talked about mental health in the black community, you know, like what were the barriers, the fears about transitioning and desires about transitioning?

Carter: Well, I will say some, I won't say they were personal barriers, but they were, um, things that I was mindful of as far as social acceptance. Um, so first I'll say they weren't personal barriers because I've always been the person to just kind of walk my own lane, [00:34:00] um, and not care much about, um, people's opinions or being set aside or ostracized and those sort of things.

Carter: I've been those things. I've been on the outside because of this. I've been, you know, picked on because of that. But, you know, those things don't really, um, have a large bearing on me. Um, but. You know, it was, um, I'd say that although I had a tough skin about my identity as it evolved over the years, I still had a concern about, um, what will my future be like?

Carter: You know, it was great to live in the moment as a young person. That's what you do when you're young, right? You express yourself loudly, and you be as different as you can, and you don't care what anybody thinks. But then I also started to think [00:35:00] about, you know, who, where will I find love?

Jackal: Um,

Carter: will my family structure look like when I want to, you know, have a family?

Carter: Um, you know, those things started to concern me with the, specifically with transitioning into male. Because prior to transitioning as male and just identifying in the, uh, LGBT or in the lesbian community as a stud or, you know, um, dom or whatever, aggressive, um, I had, I did that for so long that I had confidence in who I was.

Carter: And I had confidence in presenting that and knowing that people would just. You know, what you see is what you get, but after transition, there was that gray line of people don't know, when do I reveal, do I, and that, that factor laid over all kinds of relationships from friendships [00:36:00] to working with co workers in the workplace, and especially with finding love, you know, before as a lesbian, I could easily, you know, go into that realm or, you know, that space, and they can recognize, you know, Okay, well, this person is one of us or, you know, whatever, find me attractive or not.

Carter: Um, but it was different as trans, you know, sometimes finds you attractive and then you have to reveal otherwise or, you know, those sort of things. I, I wasn't sure how any of that would work.

Jackal: Yeah. It's interesting. And we're going to go back to a question, um, which kind of reflects this, right? Like, what were some of the things you were told about how to act as a trans person? Like, you know, what were some of the messages that you got? And it's interesting to me because Yes, in the lesbian community, especially in that like butch [00:37:00] femme realm, where it's like, you can be dominant, you can be assertive, aggressive, you can be this because that's what's expected, like that's sexy.

Jackal: But then you transition to be a man, whether that's a white man or a black man and especially for a black man and you're aggressive and you're assertive and you're dominant, and all of a sudden you're a threat. Right. So what are the things, what were the messages you got about how to be and what to do as a trans man, and how did that reflect like your reality because you already mentioned having white women like, you know, you know, look at you weird or like cross the street because they thought you were a threat or like, Guys, and you didn't mention if they were white or black, but you know, like other men like think perceiving you as like, you know, competition kind of thing.

Jackal: Like, what were the messages you got? And how did it translate for you?

Carter: Um, some of the messages I, [00:38:00] now I want to be clear on the question, what were some of the messages I received on how to be a trans man or in response to being a trans man?

Jackal: How to be a trans man, like we get messages from our own community, like me and Kai and our generation, especially, we're told that you were supposed to move away from your area. You never talked about being a female. You, you know, you'd never, never revealed you'd lived a life of stealth. You totally changed jobs.

Jackal: You like, you know, transitioned and then you got a new job kind of thing. Like, you know, all of these different messages, what were the messages that you received? 1995, 2000.

Carter: I can definitely say, I can definitely echo, you know, the message that you guys got, um, you know, that there was a template for masculinity. As you said, you know, a successful transition meant nobody knew you were trans. You did the social and legal transition, you moved to another city, you got another job, and you just started a [00:39:00] whole nother life and never mentioned anything.

Carter: Like, you know, and I joke, I joke and say that, you know, living stealth is like, Having a having a life like Jesus, like you're just a kid one day and the next day you're an adult and there's nothing in between,

Jackal: Wow. Yeah.

Carter: you know, and

Jackal: you're 32.

Carter: yeah, all of a sudden, you're 32, um, you know, when you have to hide your history, not hide your history, but when you, uh, compress your history, uh, prior to transition, that's kind of what it looks like or feels like.

Carter: Um, but some of the messages that I got as far as the template of how to be transmasculine, um, were those things, you know, just being nondisclosure. Um, but then there were also great messages that I got, and I think those were the ones that I absorbed the most, the ones that, you know, told me to be authentic and true to myself.

Carter: Told me to not, you [00:40:00] know, try to emulate what black men are in the media. you know, the stereotypical black man was nothing to aspire for. Um, and I, and specifically I'm saying the negative stereotypes of black men was nothing that, you know, I should aspire for. Um, you know, and just to be myself and to also, also always be mindful of my own safety and my environment, uh, were the messages that I got around trans masculinity.

Kai: May I ask you a question, Carter? I really appreciate it. I am thinking about, um, which identity instead of identity. And if I'm not mistaken, folks who are stud are held in high regard and pretty sought after and hot, um, as, as far as I remember, as I know. Yeah. So here you are, the way that you presented in the world and you were, um, if I'm hearing you right, you were presenting in a way that was masculine and you were often, [00:41:00] um, the word passing comes to mind, like you were blending in and then as you transitioned, did the rules of engagement change for you?

Kai: When you, um, started taking testosterone and, and living full time as Carter, did you find yourself being more aware of safety or more concerned about things or, uh, relating to people differently?

Carter: Yes, I did. Um, things changed for me in, um, in my own safety because I was now expected to be exclusively in male spaces. And not just, you know, the locker rooms and the bathrooms and so forth, but in conversation, you know, whereas before if women knew, you know, it's okay, you know, they're kind of one of us, you know, um, but I was totally not, um, expected to be in, [00:42:00] in, in women's spaces and not that that's a desire that I had, but I had more of a consciousness now of that.

Carter: That was their safe space and that I was more of a violator. you know, to try to fit into that space. Um, and that goes for not just general women's spaces, but the lesbian community, which was my community at the time. So I then had to, you know, they're reacting differently,

Jackal: How were they react? That was my exact question, like, how is the women's community, how is the lesbian community reacting to you? Because I'm sure you had girlfriends. And then now that you're transitioning, now that you're transition, now that you're identifying full time, identifying full time as male, what was the reaction?

Jackal: What was the response? You mentioned kind of like, how am I going to find love? Where am I going to find love? Like, what was that transition like for

Carter: Yeah, so, you know, lesbian women, they don't want to date a man, you know, even though, so it's, it was the response of either, [00:43:00] um, they saw you as a man and no longer part of the lesbian club, or you're just trying to be man, but you're still a woman. And so that was very unaffirming, don't want to, you know, it was one of those, those two options, um, which neither were in the favor of a trans man.

Jackal: right.

Carter: Um,

Jackal: you so much. Uh, this is really rich. It's really great for me. And I know you've already talked about stealth, uh, a lot already and, uh, disclosure and transitioning in that, in that regard and kind of being out. Um, but our show is called stealth. And so we always have to ask, um, what does stealth mean to you today?

Carter: to me, stealth means, um, as it did in the day, it just means, um, choosing when and who you disclose [00:44:00] your identity to, um, it's just about navigating spaces based on safety and comfort, um, for each individual. I don't think it's, I don't think that stealth is about secrecy, it's more about autonomy and self protection.

Carter: Um, and that's how I felt at the time and I still feel that way today. I feel that that's an individual choice. And to this day, I mean, there's still spaces where I choose when I'm going to disclose. Now, I'm, you know, Mr. Black Transman, I'm like, but, you know.

Jackal: You're Sir Trans, it's not Mister, it's Sir. Sir Trans, Sir Black Transman.

Carter: You know, so I'm obviously very out, um, but there's still, you know, if I go to 7 Eleven right now, they're not gonna know who I am, but I'm not gonna, oh, by the way, I'm trans, can I get a, you know, so it's still a matter of, um, I have, [00:45:00] I still have the option to choose when and where and who I want to disclose to.

Carter: Um, and I still do so you can still say in many ways I'm stealth in a lot of areas and then mega ways. I'm very, very out. It's an individual choice and it's based on various situations for each individual.

Jackal: Being out in your particular geographic location, and I know kind of might be stepping on your toes for a question here, but, uh, um, what is that like? Because you're in Dallas, which is a big city. So probably like other big cities has communities in that regard, but you're in Texas. Like Dallas is in Texas.

Jackal: Like let's not get, let's not skip over that fact. Um, What's that like?

Carter: Ah, it's a, uh, it's a catch 22, you know, there's, um, there's times when I, when I do feel like I'm [00:46:00] living risky, you know, we still get hate mail here to the office. Yeah.

Jackal: Yikes.

Carter: You know, just from people saying anti transgender stuff, and it still blows my mind that people take the time to print stuff, write stuff, copy it and, you know, cut it out, glue it to the paper and all kind of crazy stuff, just to send a hate message through the mail, pay the posters and everything.

Jackal: Wow.

Carter: So it is still risky, and I, and I mentioned that because I'm here at my office every day and, you know, anybody can walk in the building. And so all the time I'm in the office wondering, you know, we get random people coming to our office as well. So often I feel like, you know, I'm putting myself at a risk just by being out here.

Carter: Um, but then the, the other side of that is that. Look what has happened since I have made myself visible and the impact that the organization has made, um, [00:47:00] for so many people in their individual lives, inspiring them to create organizations. Connecting them with community, connecting them with the resources, the life saving resources that they need, giving them a place that, you know, they can go and be in community that's not, you know, just going to tolerate them like a lot of our LGBTQ spaces, you know, say, yeah, y'all can come here too, but it's really the gay club, but, you know, y'all can come perform, whatever.

Carter: I, like I said, I feel that it's, um, it's still a risk at times, but I, I'm, I feel obligated and I feel, um, purposed, um, to make that sacrifice because it's, it's much bigger than me, just a small notion of being out here, of coming to the office every day. Uh, is what really is making change for so many people.

Carter: So, you know, it's really [00:48:00] not about me at this point, uh, in, in, in, in my journey as an advocate. Um, it definitely overlaps my life in, in wanting to, um, be that, I don't want to use the word sacrificial lamb, but you know, it is in a way, it is a huge sacrifice in my personal life to be visible as a trans man.

Jackal: Thank you so much for all you do. Thank you.

Kai: I want to say the black trans org website highlights facts from the U. S. trans survey report on the experience of black respondents. And it really highlights. The, the things that are unique to the black trans community and the disparity. I really appreciate that. And when you're in contact with your, your, your community, Carter, and you're sticking your neck out like that, and it sounds like you're so driven to be of service that way. How do you all sort of contend with the [00:49:00] political climate, the wave of anti trans and anti blackness in this country, anti immigration, all the things. How do y'all support each other?

Carter: I mean, just staying connected. You know, just being connected and, um, and aware, you always have to stay aware, you know, everything that the anti trans agenda won't always be televised, you know, here in Texas. Recently, they changed the law where they'll no longer change your gender mark.

Jackal: Like your driver's license your birth certificate is that everywhere. They won't change it at all. Wow.

Carter: Won't change it at all. So clearly that's anti trans. Who else is trying to change their gender marker? You can still change your name, but you can't change your gender marker. Now, that never came up on the news? come up on my feed.

Jackal: Right.

Carter: It didn't come up for vote at the city council

Jackal: [00:50:00] That's

Carter: Ted Cruz is going crazy.

Carter: You know, all of his ads are about boys and girls, you know, boys and girls sports. Like, that's his whole platform.

Kai: Yeah.

Carter: So, you know, it's really just about, um, staying connected with community and being our own support and then also partnering with other organizations that are doing the work around political work.

Carter: Um, Equality Texas, uh, the TENT, which is the Transgender Education Network of Texas, is a trans led political organization, but definitely partnering with other organizations. [00:51:00] NCTE, which is now A4TE, they do a whole lot of work around policy and trans rights. Um, so definitely, you know, as I stated, just staying connected with community, the organizations, and with each other, um, on just staying, on being educated and aware.

Carter: Of the fight that we have ahead of us. How

Kai: you're highlighting so well, the importance of connection to each other and support we can provide for each other, and we have this Really special, unique bond in doing that. And, um, the comfort that you provide is immense Carter in this, with the uncertainty happening. And, and again, just that steadfast ability to stick your neck out like that and be present and be the face of what's happening, how do you, how do you keep it going?

Kai: You seem pretty, pretty resilient. Carter, talk to us a little bit about how you do this.[00:52:00] 

Carter: do I keep it going? I asked myself that so many times. I think I don't look at big picture. I don't know what all I've done actually in these 13 years, because I just go day to day with the small x. And I recognize that the small x make the greatest impact. And that really is what keeps me going because those small acts are very personal and I can, I can know what I've done.

Carter: Um, and the appreciation that someone feels, um, you know, when a, when another brother says, Hey, thanks for, you know, mentoring me when I really needed someone or, you know, Hey, I saw your face in a magazine and I saw myself, you know, thank you for being a voice, you know, those are the things that keep me going.

Carter: The small acts. Um, that have the huge impact are the things that really, [00:53:00] really keep me going because I know that I was once that person, um, on the other side looking for someone that looked like me or looking for someone to guide me, looking for someone to connect me with the resources that I need so that I can feel better about myself.

Carter: So I can be confident in who I was. Um, but I try to be that as much as I can to the next person.

Kai: I have just one more question, Jackal before you jump in and it's about that sense of safety and community and connection and, talk to us a little bit about the conference and then you have this gala. I, I, I just went to a camp, I went to Camp Lost Boys and I've been to a lot of different conferences.

Kai: I've been around trans folks since the mid nineties and I haven't ever felt that at home. And I hadn't ever felt that secure among our brothers. And we were a hundred plus of us in a pool and I've never felt that secure in my body and I've never felt that. And I have so many trans people in my life, but it was [00:54:00] just something so incredible.

Kai: And I just can imagine you create that at your, at your events. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? It's hard to put words to

Carter: Yeah, absolutely. And first of all, shout out to Rocco

Kai: no kidding.

Carter: Boys team. I went to, uh, I went camp Lost Boys, not this year, but the year before, so I just missed you. And I had a phenomenal time as well. We were in the mountains of, uh, California. It was great. Those guys do a really great job with those camps.

Carter: You know, creating that space or creating a space that is so welcoming and affirming for the community that I serve is a direct, I do mean a direct, um, outcome of all the things that I needed in my, you know, I've, you know, Uh, I won't give you guys my whole life story, but I've, um, I've had a very complex social life and that I've [00:55:00] moved a lot.

Carter: I've been in various social settings. I went to more schools than I did grades. Um, and so, you know, just really never feeling that I had a home or that I could make a. Connection that could stick. Um, being the only black person in the room too often being the only gay person in the room too often being the only trans person.

Carter: Um, you know, I know what that feels like, you know, as you said, Kai, you, you. I'm sure you're an awesome guy and you don't have any problems socially, but it was something about being with people that were just like you. You don't have a problem being around other white people, you don't have a problem being around other men, but it was something about being around other guys like you, um, that was very, very fulfilling and gave you a sense of completion or wholeness or a connection that was very important to you.

Carter: And so, you know, those were things that I was looking [00:56:00] for. And was able to provide and so that made it easy to say, hey, this is what it feels. This is what it should feel like. When you're connected with community, this is what I want it to feel like when I'm around other black people that I can be vulnerable, that I can laugh and talk about, you know, cultural things or, you know, without having to code switch or, you know, any of those things, you know, we need spaces like that, you know, where I can go somewhere and be trans and not worry about if I'm being too masculine for the gay people.

Carter: Or, you know, are these gay men wondering, you know, fetishizing over me as a trans man and all these things, you know, I can just go and be trans among other trans people. So, you know, it's a compilation of our experiences that really shape how we work and how we advocate for our communities. And so this is just the product of my own [00:57:00] experiences in wanting to create spaces like this.

Carter: so much.

Kai: Thank you. I just think it must be so magical for folks, particularly like newer, newer folks who've never, some folks I imagine have never met another trans guy, less a black trans man, you know, and I want to, again, just highlight how wonderful that is, Carter.

Carter: Thank you.

Jackal: Yeah, totally. Um, So I actually have two questions because Kai mentioned the gala, Right. And so like, I just. I so want to go to BTAC because it just, you have a family day, you have the gala, you have all these different things that it's not just a conference, right? It's a phenomenal, fun, inclusive event that's like embodies, you know, what it means to be a black trans person, right?

Jackal: What about the religion? Like, do you have any kind of religion, religious, functions that happen as part of your conference or is that a part?

Carter: No, so we don't have a religious thing per se, [00:58:00] but we do have a, um, I'll say a spiritually inspired opening and closing. So that means, um, all denominations we don't play many particular denomination it's more so a spiritual. Um, experience in wanting to pay homage and give a connection to our ancestry as black people, as trans people.

Carter: Um, and then we also set our intentions for the week, you know, state out loud why we're there for them and what we want to get from our time there in that week. And, and we, you know, we pray for each other that, that they're able to get those things. That week and we pray that they that they stay open on their minds and their hearts to either be the recipient or the giver of something that needs to happen in the conference that week.

Carter: Because as you said, it's not just the conference. It's not just plan your itinerary, get the information and go home. [00:59:00] This is a conference that People look forward to this all year long because they know they're not going to leave there the same.

Jackal: It shouldn't be called a conference anymore. It should be called a festival. The BTAC festival.

Carter: Yes, I like that, Jackal. that. I love that.

Jackal: It's such a celebration and, and I'm, I really, really wanna come.

Kai: I, I also think you're asking people to be really brave, you know, it's courageous to be open and allow yourself to be vulnerable in spaces, particularly because those of us who live on the fringes, who fear for our safety, who, you know, there isn't representation of us in the larger world. It's really brave to do that. It's a beautiful way to open and close your, your events.

Carter: Yeah, that's a great point, Kai, because a lot of people are on that first day or that first event or time together. They're very hesitant. Some people are. Overstimulated or reserved or [01:00:00] cautious because they've never seen as black trans people. We, a lot of us have never been in a space with other black people that want to love us.

Carter: Trans person, if you're among black people, you're watching your back, you know, or you're trying to simulate so that, you know, you can be tolerated. There's no place for us to come and show up fully. As ourselves, other than the Black Trans Advocacy Conference. And so that's a lot for people to take in, that this is true.

Carter: And then the energy that you can feel in the room can't be stated. We can't even put that in the program to know that there's love and acceptance. And nobody wants anything but goodness for you in this space.

Kai: And you're with your family and your partners and your sweethearts And I think you're demonstrating how lovable you are and how lovable we are. So I just I think it was beautiful.

Jackal: So let's shift to you a little bit like what are. [01:01:00] Important milestones in your life. What are you proud of? I know you're very proud of BTAC, but what other things are you proud of in your life?

Carter: Um, some key milestones, um, would definitely be, you know, starting my my physical transition starting the organization. Um, meeting and marrying my wife. My wife and I have been married for 23 years.

Jackal: Wow, congratulations.

Carter: She truly is my best friend and she's also the co-founder of the organization.

Jackal: Sweet, that's amazing.

Carter: Um, and my daughter, my daughter, um, and all of her accomplishments are my accomplishments.

Carter: She

Jackal: your daughter now?

Carter: 16.

Kai: Wow

Carter: Give me a minute to brag. Okay, so it's

Jackal: go ahead, brag, this is the milestone piece. You, you.

Carter: and it's really awesome to see guys I would love for you all to meet her because she grew up with the organization with us. [01:02:00] She was three when we started the organization. So she's rounded off. She's now the ally. She's helping. Uh, this little trans girl here, she got the, the, uh, LGBTQ homecoming

Jackal: Mm

Carter: did, it's really awesome.

Carter: Well, my daughter is 16, she's a junior in high school, she's currently taking dual credit classes. And she's already starting her college courses as well. Uh, she's a student council officer, so she's really good at event planning and just keeping people in great spirits. Like, I can count the number of times on my hand, I've seen her mad.

Carter: Um, yeah, so I'm just really, really proud of her. Um, and just You know, it's amazing to say, you know, my wife and I have really did okay being responsible for somebody's life, you know, at least. That's a remarkable thing and it's such a conscious and it brings me such joy because I try to make [01:03:00] her childhood, a major contrast to how mine was and so it seems to be working in is great and I just love to see.

Jackal: Wow. Congratulations on being a great father and a proud papa. Okay.

Carter: Exactly.

Kai: I'm, I'm impressed. Just one year, the length of your marriage, and then also you work together and then you have a child that you parent together, those are major things. Parenting is the toughest job, I think, and it is a responsibility, and some of us will know, like, this is, I want to do the thing that I didn't have for me I, I don't want to do that thing, but like, and then what do you do instead, right?

Kai: And , the fact that y'all have done that as a family is really wonderful, and she sounds awesome.

Carter: Thank you.

Jackal: So, we're nearing the end of our questions, at least this part, because we have bonus questions. What would you like to say to the newer generation of trans and non binary folk?

Carter: So [01:04:00] new generation of trans and non-binary folk. Folk. First I wanna say thank you. Um, thank you for being bold enough to choose your own life. Over, um, you know, the societal expectations of who you should be. Um, I think that's a beautiful thing and we need you as you and all of your uniqueness and all of your color in the world.

Carter: Um, just as you have someone to look to, there's going to be someone looking to you to be an example or a possibility model. Of, of how they can live authentically and be happy as well. Um, I'd also like you to know that when times get tough, such as now in this political climate, and it seems like you know, all the people with all the power are against our trans kids, you know, without reason, why don't they [01:05:00] deserve.

Carter: The same things that all kids deserve. So I want you to know that you do deserve those things, that you are valuable, that you are worthy, and that you are 100%, just a beautiful and valuable person to the people in your life. Um, to us here on this show, you know, a lot, and you've heard me talk about the sacrifices that I've made, and there were people that before me that did the same, um, even greater sacrifices so that I can be here, so I want you to see me as a, as a possibility model for yourself as well, that you too can have longevity, um, living authentically, you know, I'm about to be 50 years old, been married for 23 years.

Carter: I've raised a child and all things are possible for you. You have no limitations and if anything, transitioning erases all of the lines and boundaries and you're free to color outside of the lines and be whoever you [01:06:00] are. Most important for me is that you love yourself.

Jackal: Well, if the newer generation isn't inspired, I sure am. I'm telling you, that was, that was great. How do you think we can be more supportive of, uh, like what message would, would you give us, the older generation or the newer generation, like cross generationally, how can we be more supportive of each other as far as trans brothers out there?

Carter: How can we be more supportive? I think what you guys are doing is phenomenal. Not only are you, um, bringing visibility and awareness, um, to the trans community, but to the trans community that is often left alone. You know, the people that are stealth, we say, oh, well, they don't want to be, you know, they don't want to be a part of us, then we won't worry about them or, you know, those sort of things.

Carter: But they are trans and they do have experiences and they simply are making those life [01:07:00] choices of their own for their own safety and security, but they still need community. And so for you guys to uplift that and hold space for that is very, very important. And thank you for doing that. Um, and I also really think what you guys are doing with your mentoring program is a one.

Carter: There's nothing better one on one experience with somebody who takes the time to say, Hey, I see you. I want to help you and I want to uplift and affirm all the great things about you and also help and walk with you through your challenges. Mentoring is so important, especially for men. Who weren't raised as men from boys.

Carter: So, you know, you have a bunch of men that are trying to raise each other. And so, to make that connection with the work that you all are doing is phenomenal. And I think that's really great.

Jackal: Thank you so much. That's, that's [01:08:00] very sweet of you to say. Our last question is, what do you think we should have asked that we didn't? Or what famous last words of wisdom would you like to impart to us?

Carter: Um, what you should have asked that you didn't. I don't know. I feel like I had a whole lot of questions. I don't know.

Jackal: We try to cover things, but just in case. , you have a really rich life, so I'm sure you could, we could talk to you for hours and not scratch the surface.

Carter: Well, these are really great questions. I wouldn't mind talking to you guys for quite a while also, but I don't think you left anything out. I really enjoyed the questions that are very thoughtful. I don't think I have anything else that I wanted to plug either.

Kai: What I find remarkable and another thing that I really appreciate about you, Carter, is that you described a connection with folks who are like newer in transition or thinking about transition or whatever that was, in a way that's so [01:09:00] wonderfully accepting and affirming and some of us have a hard time with that. Some of us have a hard time speaking across generations or thinking that, um, folks have much to value,, and, or much to bring to us. And I think that reciprocity is so wonderful and it excites me. And I love hearing how you talk to folks. And, I, I agree with you about the mentoring program. It's such an opportunity to connect. And, I think we need each other so much. We need that connection. And I want to thank you for. Being here with us and for sharing your story with us today, Carter, and taking that the time. You're such a beautiful storyteller and

Jackal: you so much..

Jackal: Wow. That was something. What do you think now?

Kai: I think I'm more feeling than anything. I just feel so touched by getting to know him just a little bit. Carter's sensational. I just think he's a larger than life figure in my mind and the mind of many, and I am [01:10:00] appreciative that he's so approachable and kind and selfless. I just really appreciate the work and that doggedness that he has and hopefulness, you know,

Jackal: You always, not always, but you seem to really admire people who are of service. I've heard you use this term quite a bit. And if anybody embodies that, it's Carter. He was so incredible. Like, you know, like it's not just about being selfless. It's about sacrifice. He has sacrificed, like those are the words he used.

Jackal: And it's just like, wow. Like to, I mean, you know, I kind of don't want to bring bad karma towards us and say like, oh, we're so lucky that we haven't gotten trolled, you know, blah, blah, blah. But to receive literally those scary cut out letter hate mail, . postage letters.

Jackal: That's, that's scary. That's weird, you know, and he's just like persevered and you're right, like, he's so humble. He's so kind, like, the [01:11:00] intergenerational piece that he talked about. It was a really incredible interview. I'm so glad he said yes.

Kai: Yeah. And every day he's showing up to his office and he lives, we can't remove the geography from, from his experience and from the experience of black trans men and just in our country right now, you know, and I think the courage that he has and that he, is asking of his community too, when they show up and come together and, to experience the conference with each other and they make it together, you know?

Kai: And, um, so he clearly is able to set that up and, and people are coming back and it's growing, but I feel really a lot of gratitude for having him talk to us about the experiences that, um, Black trans men have that trans people of color have and, the support that he has found within his community and I appreciated too that he was really upfront about how the folks in the Yahoo chat group and the members, those groups [01:12:00] were white trans guys who were celebratory and saying, this is fantastic and Carter was upfront about his experience being different as being walking to the world as a black trans guy and finding support and folks who could really, really understand him. 

Jackal: There was so much to talk about and say, and one of the things that we've said before on this podcast, but I think it bears repeating, is that, you know, when people. Say the trans men in particular are doing it to just get male privilege. That is a very one sided because that's not everybody's experience.

Jackal: That might be white men's experience or trans men experience, you know, but it's also, uh, you know, a box of how you express masculinity. Like if you, if you become like a white. Trans male sissy boy. That's not a lot of there's different, there's different experiences and being a black man in the United States, [01:13:00] period, is a different experience. And so being a black trans man transitioning to get privilege as a black trans man. Is a ridiculous thing to think about, you know, like, so it just bears repeating that some of those myths that people have about us and our community really are just that myths

Kai: very simplistic, right? That it,

Jackal: simplistic.

Kai: yeah. And I think that's a great point, Jackal, just that he was able to articulate that just the complexities of all the intersectionalities and then the positionality of himself in the world and trans men in the world and black trans men in the world. And I, I'm so inspired by his community building, you know, , he talked about what was missing when he was, you know, And coming of age and coming into this and, and, and like how he's worked really hard with others he was very gracious to include, you know, collaborative work and acknowledge the people that came with him and before him, and Antoine [01:14:00] his brother and her on who passed. How he wanted to create a space that he didn't have as a younger trans person. And I thought that was, that was really awesome.

Jackal: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's all I have to say. I mean, he was amazing and I'm so glad he said, yes we were, we were big fans to begin with. We're big fans to end, you

Kai: Yeah, definitely. So if you want to learn more about, about Carter's organization, go to blacktrans. org. Um, and you can find out more about the conference that happens, the gala at BTAC, and then also the U. S. Trans Survey report on the experience of Black respondents, um,

Jackal: you'll see me and Kai there.

Kai: at the conference. Yeah, but

Jackal: we're going

Kai: big shout out to Carter,

Jackal: big shout out. Thank you so much.

Kai: brother.

Jackal: Hey, Jackal here. Kai and I are excited to offer a new members section on our webpage. As a member, you'll get ad free episodes with bonus material like transmasculine history. Here's a teaser. 

Adam: [01:15:00] Let's get started with famed African American gospel singer Willimer Broadnax, the frontman for his own quartet called Little Axe and the Golden Echoes.

Adam: I should here mention that Little Axe was his nickname. He was a small guy, especially compared to his brother William, who went by the nickname Big Axe. 

Jackal: Go to our website and sign up to become a member today. Now it's time for Transponder.

Jackal: So today's Transponder TransJoy segment has to be a shout out to BTAC, the Black Trans Advocacy Coalition. Their mission is to improve Black trans human experience by overcoming violence and injustice in the world through the power, value and love of all people. If you're looking for basic resources, getting basic needs, a job, housing, or healthcare, [01:16:00] BTAC has your back.

Jackal: So reach out to them at blacktrans. org, that's B L A C K T R A N S. org, blacktrans. org.

Jackal: If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact our Instagram page at transmasculinepodcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests, who share their insight, their Expertise and heartfelt stories.

Jackal: We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you. 

Kai: Good job today, Jackal 

Jackal: good job to you, Kai. 

Kai: Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before. The year 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over [01:17:00] time and will not represent everyone's experience.

Kai: We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority. 

Jackal: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids.

Jackal: We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community. 

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website. We monitor our social media platforms.

Kai: We respond to feedback from our audience and we will be accountable when we screw up. 

Jackal: We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. We are getting better, but we are still rookies and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way.

Jackal: The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own [01:18:00] and those of our guests. We do not represent any 

Kai: outside entity. Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know your feedback and support are essential to our show's success.

Kai: Help us get the word out about our podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media and rate us on your favorite streaming platform. You can find us on Instagram trans masking podcast on X formerly Twitter. At podcast stealth on YouTube, stealth, the trans masculine podcast, and be sure to check out our website, trans masculine podcast.

Kai: com. Thank you for joining us.