Aster is a 43 year old white queer transman. He lives on traditional Clackamas territories, Portland, OR, with his partner and 3 year old kiddo. Aster has been in queer and trans communities since his teens and has always worked toward improving access and visibility for LGBTQ+ and other marginalized people. This has included political direct action, drag, cabaret and spoken word performance, and educating healthcare providers in providing trauma-informed care for trans and gender diverse people. He currently works as a critical care registered nurse at a community hospital where he and his fellow nurses recently organized a union to better advocate for patient safety and healthcare worker protections. 

Aster Non Member all but bio & tranniversary

Jackal: [00:00:00] Hello everyone, welcome back. We're excited to be entering our fourth season of Stealth, a trans masculine podcast. I'm Jackal.

Kai: And I'm Kai. We're your hosts for the Transmasculine Podcast. It's amazing to us that we are still going strong after two years and we'll be featuring our 50th episode this season.

Kai: Our show continues to focus on the stories of people who identify as transmasculine and who transitioned either socially or medically before or around the year 2000. We will continue to make efforts to include stories from trans men of color and acknowledge the importance of representation from these voices.

Jackal: The name of our show highlights two important facts that one for our generation, we were often told to hide our past and live an underground existence and that due to that, our stories are very often

Kai: overlooked. We want our audience to know that we ourselves [00:01:00] are a part of this generation of trans masculine identified people, and that we value the experiences inside our trans masculine community.

Kai: We want people to know that throughout our lives. Each of us has had to navigate issues of disclosure, which have impacted us in many ways. As

Jackal: humans, we are always changing and transitioning. As elder trans men, we assume many roles. We get married and divorced. We are caretakers. We are parents. We are professionals, academics, and advocates.

Jackal: We push for human rights. and systemic change. We are exploring the various transitions that we undergo post

Kai: transition. If you're new to our show, welcome. And if you're a listener from a previous season, thank you for your continued support. You can find us on most social media platforms, including YouTube.

Kai: These are trying times, and we want to acknowledge that here in the States, And throughout the world, there are groups trying to remove protections in place for our trans and non binary communities. Safety is a real concern for us, particularly our trans and non binary BIPOC siblings. We offer links to health [00:02:00] and safety resources on our website, transmasculinepodcast.

Kai: com. Please hold each other dear and stay in touch with us.

Jackal: We invite our listeners to remember that we are a living community. We are healthy. We are contributing. We have experienced loss and success. We are loved. And we welcome you to our stories.

Jackal: So we're in the beginning of March, International Women's Day just passed. We want to. Say happy International Women's History Month to all of our listeners. Yeah.

Kai: Yeah. Happy, happy International Women's Month. Jackal has some thoughts that he'd like to share. We're gonna hand the mic over to Jackal.

Jackal: Thank you. In honor and respect of Women's History Month, International Women's Day, which just passed on March 8th, And Zero Discrimination Day, which happened on March 1st. I would like to comment on the still existing tension between some feminist thought and anti trans rhetoric. Of course, this conversation cannot be held without discussion of TERF ideology and Black feminist thought.

Jackal: TERF. Stands for [00:03:00] trans exclusionary radical feminism and stands that because trans women were not assigned female at birth They cannot understand nor experience the sexism that cisgender AFAB women have experienced. Black feminist thought has argued that women of intersectional identities also understand and experience sexism differently, and that the TERF argument therefore reduces all AFAB experiences of sexism as a white woman's experience.

Jackal: The argument, therefore, that trans women experience sexism differently than AFAB cisgendered women is invalid, since understood through a black feminist lens, all women experience sexism, and by Tension patriarchy differently in hopes of promoting trans inclusive feminism. I would like to acknowledge that all people who identify as women have had, or will have some experience with sexism and those experiences should never be invalidated to do so as to perpetuate a rape [00:04:00] culture, blaming the victim mentality as a trans man who knew 30 years of first hand sexism.

Jackal: I've often wondered where I fit in this conversation. TERFs often reduce trans experience to genitalia, but where do the trans women who have had bottom surgery and the trans men who have not fit into this conversation? In fact, where do trans men who have experienced sexism in their life fit at all? I am still a man, but I'm a feminist.

Jackal: I use my experience as an AFAB person to inform my masculinity, and also to inform how I interact with women. Although equity has not been achieved after a century of struggles, people are equal. According to the US Trans Survey Report on the Experiences of Black Respondents found on the BTAC website, 53 percent of black trans people experience sexual assault, 67 percent experience police brutality.

Jackal: 38 percent experience poverty and 42 percent [00:05:00] experience homelessness. And in 2023 alone, at least 30 black trans people murdered. We cannot afford to be divided. Marginalized peoples need to stand side by side, hand in hand, so that we may all achieve equity and inclusion and have an equal sense of belonging.

Jackal: We need to support and promote trans inclusive, anti racist feminism. It might seem like an. Odd way to end this thought piece and celebration of women's history, but I want to remind people that the Black Trans Advocacy Conference is happening April 23rd through the 28th in Dallas, Texas. I encourage you to support, donate, and attend this important annual conference, which can be found at hashtag VTAC 2024.

Jackal: Happy Women's History Month.

Jackal: AD

Kai: Jackal and I want to remind our listeners that we have a new member section. We want to thank those like Emory, Harold, Taylor, Matt, and Alex who have become members. Our member section offers bonus [00:06:00] questions, features trans masculine pioneers no longer with us, and hilarious personal stories by our volunteer extraordinaire, Adam.

Kai: Here's another teaser.

Adam: Anyway, the story I wanted to tell today is a pretty familiar one in the land of trans masc ridiculousness, in that it centers on a misplaced dick. So, as I mentioned, part of my whole midlife trans epiphany involved blowing up my 13 year marriage, which in turn meant that I needed to sell my house, which I'm actually still in the process of doing.

Adam: And I have two kids, and my ex and I split custody of them, but point being, kids live here in this house 50 percent of the time, and as such my house frequently looks like a tornado of glitter and crayons just ripped right through it. So, anytime the broker wants to bring prospective buyers by, I have to do a frenzied power clean of the house to make it look halfway presentable.

Adam: So, the other day, the broker calls and says he has some folks who want to see it, and I do the frenzied power clean and clear everyone out of the house. I come home a couple hours later after the showing, feeling extremely proud of myself for the manic level of cleaning efforts, and then notice that I manage to leave [00:07:00] a giant, hyper realistic, quite veiny dick in the sink.

Adam: Yeah, so after having the requisite shame spiral of crippling embarrassment, I text the broker, I believe it was just a string of fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, with like a thousand apologies after, and then I chose that moment to out myself as trans to him, since that seemed like the logical thing to do.

Adam: He being a grown up who is extremely focused on making his commission, replied with something to the effect of lol, all good, I've seen worse, and said that he'd actually noticed it in time to conceal it before the buyer saw it. Which, of course, made me wonder whether that meant he had picked it up and moved it somewhere and then moved it back?

Adam: Or maybe he just threw a towel over it or something? These are the questions that keep me up at night, wondering whether my broker has touched my dick. We also accept donations, and we want to thank Kida and Evan for their donations. The 4 a month. So go to transmasculine podcast.com and sign up now. We don't wanna be gatekeepers, [00:08:00] so if you feel like you can't afford $4 a month, please reach out to us via email, transmasculine podcast@gmail.com.

Adam: Consider buying a T-shirt while you're on our website. Or if you want to be cool like Adam. We're always looking for volunteers and we especially need a volunteer to handle our social media.

Adam: Today's interview is with Aster. Aster is a 43 year old white queer trans man. As a land acknowledgement, he wants to recognize that he lives on traditional Clackamas territories, contemporarily known as Portland, Oregon, with his partner and three year old kiddo. Aster has been in queer and trans communities since his teens and has always worked towards improving access and visibility for LGBTQ plus and other marginalized people.

Adam: This has included political direct action, drag, cabaret, and spoken word performance. He also educates healthcare specialists in providing trauma informed care for trans and gender diverse people. He currently works as a critical care registered nurse at a community hospital where he and his fellow nurses recently organized a union [00:09:00] to better advocate for patient safety and healthcare worker protections.

Adam: As anniversary is 1998, the same as Michael Elliot and Jackal. So go check out our website and see what momentous events happened in that year. We'll lead in this episode with another musical masterpiece by Ed Vargas Band Eddie in the Heartbeats.

Jackal: Hey, so welcome back to stealth, the trans masculine podcast. We're in season four. And today we're here with Astor. How are you doing today? Astor?

Aster: I'm great. How are you all doing?

Jackal: I'm good. We're good. Thank you. So we [00:10:00] don't know each other. Like how did you get to be part of this show? Did you reach out to us? What's the deal?

Aster: I have been looking around the last probably six months or so, especially for more ways to feel connected into trans, masculine, FTM, trans man, et cetera, community. Especially with folks that are from my own generation coming out or, Prior to that, and just kind of stumbled across y'all's podcast and started listening and just immediately felt a sense of relief and connection.

Aster: It's been really Nice for me to feel like I can be more connected in that way to other people's stories. So after I had listened, you know, probably exhaustively to an entire season, I reached out to y'all via email.

Jackal: We're so happy to have you.

Aster: Thanks. Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

Jackal: Yeah. So how did you learn [00:11:00] about trans masculine identities?

Aster: I came out as well as a dyke at the time pretty early in high school like age 14 probably and grew up out in a kind of small community farm town outside of Portland, Oregon. So I was lucky enough to be able to access queer youth support and The form of mostly, like, in person support groups, you know, this is, like, all before internet and social media and so found some, queer teen community throughout my teen years, and I think that's how I got exposed was just I definitely was aware of trans femme identities before I became aware of trans masc identities.

Aster: I know I think one of Kate Bornstein's earlier books came out when I was in high school, and I got a hold of that, and I think, I know this is probably a common one for a lot of folks in [00:12:00] my generation, but I found Leslie Feinberg's Stone Butch Blues

Aster: Read that you know, amazing, important piece of literature, also a pretty depressing thing to conceive, like, well, I guess this is maybe what my life is going to look like. Very much identified as a butch, dyke, or lesbian, and then late in high school really started to experiment with trying on, in my mind, , what it would mean to come out as trans. At that time, F to M, I think was the terminology that was, I was hearing the most. And then actually came out kind of officially the fall after I graduated high school as trans, so I was 17.

Jackal: Wow. Wow. So you're, cause I was thinking, you know, you're talking about the eighties cause that's when I was in high school, but you're talking about like you were in the nineties in high school and then came out like basically boom right after high school.

Aster: [00:13:00] Yeah, I think I probably, I think on some level I really knew that I felt like I had more of a male or at least a more complex gender identity in some ways in high school, but it was hard enough being out school. Yeah. As a dyke at school, you know, in the nineties I think some part of me just had a wise sense of self preservation to not you know, venture more into that until after I had moved out.

Aster: I was 17 when I graduated high school, so I was like moved out of my parents house and that was kind of the biggest thing I think safety wise for me.

Jackal: Thank you so much.

Kai: How did you find out about support groups? I mean, you're in a smaller town outside of Portland, there's no internet really. And how did you actually get connected and did you go into the city to be with the support groups?

Aster: I was very lucky in that my mom bless her heart, is really hard to be supportive. She definitely did [00:14:00] not understand at all what I was going through but she Helped find me a therapist in high school who was an older lesbian and She her practice was in Portland. And so I went into Portland To go to therapy and then I think she is the person, that therapist is the person that let me know about these groups through a non profit that I don't think exists anymore in Portland, but it was called Phoenix Rising, and they were hosting a number of different like teen social, and then there was one that was more, one was more social support, one, I remember being more like kind of focused on Writing and arts kind of stuff.

Aster: I think they put zines together sometimes. I was really big in the 90s. In my communities, at least. So that's how I got connected. And then, yeah, I did go. Into Portland to, I lived like in the [00:15:00] country, like four miles past the end of the last, , urban bus line. So I was able to like, I was on the outskirts of where it would be conceivable to get in and out of town on my own.

Aster: , and then as I said, my mom was doing her best to be supportive, which was awesome.

Jackal: That's amazing. That's really thank you, mom. So walk us through it. Like you're 17, you're coming out at least socially. How did you start your transition? What was the transition process like?

Aster: Well, I came out to my parents on my 18th birthday. With a letter that really threw them for a loop I was in, I did go to college briefly right out of high school and was living on campus at that time, there really was no meaningful support for, certainly trans people, and I didn't even really feel like for, Gay, lesbian, bi people at Portland State University again, late 90s so I think it's a very different world there now, but [00:16:00] parents, you know, had tried, my mom especially, to be supportive as much as she could when I was coming out as gay or a dyke in high school. They just really not wrap their heads around me coming out as trans.

Aster: And I think the biggest thing for them at the time is feeling like me making What they saw as permanent changes to my body when I was so young, you know, I think they were both comparing it to, well, I changed so much between 18 and 25 or whatever, like, how could you possibly know this about yourself at this age?

Aster: And I just was really clear that I knew who I was. I had no idea, like how I was going to. Get where I was going. But I definitely felt very grounded in my truth. So lost a lot of parental support for quite a long time. So I dropped out of college pretty promptly after that, just because there was no, I wasn't finding support on the [00:17:00] college campus and had started to find like a handful of other I guess what we would now say transmasc identified folks in Portland but really didn't know how to access, gender affirming medical services or anything like that.

Aster: It was really just kind of stumbling through it, and there, I was fortunate that there was sort of this early beginnings of transmasc community happening in Portland. People like mostly it's slightly older than me, but I was able to just through word of mouth eventually get connected with some other folks.

Aster: And it was all sort of this underground, you find out. From each other. Oh, this doctor, maybe we'll write you a prescription or this therapist, will maybe write you a letter. And we're, it was the Harry Benjamin standards of care at that time. So when I was 18, went back to the therapist that I had seen in high school to get a letter from her.

Aster: And I think she felt some hesitations about it because she hadn't done this before but she [00:18:00] did not make me do the full six months I think I just saw her a handful of times and she wrote me a letter. And then I went into a county health department medical office and basically convinced a doctor to write me a prescription for hormones.

Aster: Like I explained the Harry Benjamin standards of care to her and she was really uncomfortable with it. But I didn't have health insurance at the time. I didn't have health insurance for, a good chunk of my adult life. So it was just trying to figure out how I could hustle my way through the process, but it was definitely felt like very underground word of mouth. You know, figure it out by talking to other people. So that's how I started my medical transition. I had initially bummed a couple of testosterone off of a friend that I think I initially took in, gosh, 99. And then [00:19:00] I officially got a prescription for T, I think near the end of 99. So it was wild.

Aster: It was a wild time.

Jackal: Sounds like it. Did you have any, I know you said that there is a lot of older people. But a couple of guys that we interviewed are from that same area. Rej comes to mind and he was younger too. Did you know any younger trans men at all?

Aster: I did eventually the first, I would say I met two or three folks. One person I met through the college that I was going to. And then sadly for me, he moved to Montreal within a few months to be with his partner. And then I found out, I don't even remember how I found out about the True Spirit Conference. went to that I guess it would have been 99 for the first time, and I remember the majority of the folks that were attending were substantially older than me, so I would have been. [00:20:00] 18, I guess, at the time, and there was this small contingent, like maybe a dozen of us that were like, gosh, I would say 25 and under, but maybe even 30 and under and I formed really tight bond with those folks and then I, so that was definitely a beginning of having some connections for me, for folks, you know, mostly other places.

Aster: There's definitely some folks like in the Bay Area that I. Kept in touch with and developed more long term friendships with, and then I went back, I think, a couple more years after that to True Spirit. So that was definitely a helpful touch point for me in terms of finding some community. I feel I've heard a number of people interviewed on your show that went to True Spirit or even helped organize True Spirit. And probably we would be remembered as the annoying young punks after the first year or two, I feel like we honestly just went to party and meet each other and hook up. Us a hell of [00:21:00] annoying, but it was really helpful for me and I think for a lot of my peers

Jackal: Stick, stay here for just a second? Because for me, you and I are transitioning literally around the same time, like literally we're not very far apart. You're in Portland. I'm in Seattle, right? I have this huge group of, yeah. Guys that are, I'm in my thirties, you're barely, you're under 20, right? have this huge group, you know, of people that are around my age it was like critical mass in Seattle, right? This blow up of community. And I had a lot of community. And I can imagine as the beginning transition in my own mind, being very self centered . I did not, I didn't even think about people. I had barely heard about being able to be transmasculine, right? And transitioning. So I couldn't imagine thinking about this. As a teenager, , it just could not, it's like not having internet, like I couldn't imagine it happening, right? Like I just would be out of [00:22:00] my mind.

Jackal: Did you have any, did this group have any Mentors kind of step up from either my generation or like the James green generation or anything to give you more structured guidance or were you like me at the time kind of having to figure it out as you went as a teenager,

Aster: I would say more the latter I did know a couple older trans men that were in their probably 30s or 40s at the time You know some of them I think of a couple in particular that were very much living a very stealth life and we're kind of open to chatting a little bit. There's one person I remember that put a zine out that was really influential for a number of folks in my age group, I guess. And then

Kai: Remember what it was called.

Aster: Gosh, Willie boy, I think,

Kai: Yep.

Aster: Gosh, I'm like, this is like really reaching

Kai: You're doing great.

Jackal: great. That's awesome.

Aster: honestly, I feel [00:23:00] like it was more by the time I was 20, I think there was more people popping up.

Aster: I want to say, like, in our 20s, in Portland specifically, I was a part of I, I think that was more of what I felt like that kind of critical mass moment that you're describing, Jackal, in, in Portland, where there were more folks starting to come out and be more visible in the community that identified as trans men or FTM or along that spectrum somewhere.

Aster: And I was part of a direct action organizing group called Gender Machine Works in Portland in the early 2000s that was mostly folks like 30 and under. And that was, I think, that kind of that critical mass moment for me as far as in Portland. People starting to come together and we had a float in the pride parade to try to get more visibility.

Aster: And then we did some organizing around supporting, there was like a trans femme identified person who [00:24:00] is a high school student at a pretty Rural outlying high school outside of Portland and we all like at her requests, organized and showed up as like a picket across the street. So more community awareness stuff.

Aster: And then we also designed a curriculum workshop to help teach providers how to be. Friendlier to trans mass people in their medical practices, which is a big thing because we were just really trying to Grassroots organize for things to be a tiny bit easier for people in our community, you know, and I remember that first round of folks that went through that first class that we did was at outside in which is a nonprofit that serves street affected and I know their focus is primarily folks 30 and under.

Aster: And they still have a medical clinic through there that is accessible for folks that are low income. And we taught a lot of the providers [00:25:00] that were like baby providers starting their careers going through that program in the early 2000s. So that's the kind of stuff that, that we were getting up to. I feel like that early 2000s, really, in Portland, from my perception at least, was really kind of a critical moment.

Jackal: Well, thank you for everything you did, especially at that young age and for making that process easier for those who came behind you.

Kai: I just think about like right now with the medical world and Portland is kind of a hub for gender affirming surgeries having OHSU and legacy. And just the amount of work that has been done over the decades, you've been paying it forward and here you are. Again, thank you. It's pretty cool to be able to live, to see the ripple effect. It's pretty great.

Aster: It's, yeah, it's, it is cool, and it's absolutely wild when I reflect back on how things were, for sure.

Jackal: So Aster, you talked about being a young person and living in a rural area. How do you think your social standings, otherwise race, [00:26:00] class the sexual identity piece impacted your ability to transition or even your fears about transitioning.

Aster: Yeah I Grew up in a pretty solidly middle class family and had a lot of support, academically, for sure, growing up. My mom was an elementary school teacher for a very long time. So I definitely feel like I had the privilege of having that foundation, even once I lost family support for a number of years in my life I feel like I had the foundation to be able to critically think and be articulate in a way that made it probably slightly easier to advocate for myself and navigate through these systems. I'm white. I definitely recognize that I have a huge amount of privilege in that just in terms of intersectionality of oppressions.

Aster: After growing up pretty solidly middle class was very much like working class poor [00:27:00] in my adult life after I came out to my parents lost any like family financial support. And I was a punk kid living in, crappy rented houses, with a million roommates.

Aster: So in some ways, you know, I did, like, I didn't have health insurance through all of my young adult life which made things complicated more so as far as accessing transition related care. Like, I didn't have any labs drawn ever related to my use of hormones and stuff until I was probably in my 30s, things like that.

Aster: I think geographic location, even though like I grew up rurally I think the proximity to Portland really made a huge difference. Like the fact that I was able to find the kind of social support. In my peer group as a teen and then early 20 something was hugely impactful, especially being before the era of Internet and being able to find people [00:28:00] that way.

Aster: I don't think it's by any means easy to come out in a more isolated environment now. However, you are able to actually find other people at least in an online platform now, which it was not. Available to us at that time.

Jackal: Reddit has been like a big help for so many people like I know that there's hundreds of people on the under over 30 FTM group and stuff like, it's amazing what the internet has done for us.

Kai: You're bringing back lots of memories, especially from Portland. My sense of the Portland guys, when we were up in Seattle, the first guy that I talked to on an AOL message board, my question was butch, dyke, or F to M, even though I never really identified as butch, people would tell me that I was butch. and the person was from Portland. He was a trans guy from Portland and he was so sweet. And he just let me ask him whatever questions and, you dial up and wait for the thing to log on. And I was hoping that he would write back and it was [00:29:00] just very sweet. So there were some really sweet guys down there. And I think my sense was that it was very binary and it was very much, living your life and being a little bit stealth. I'm glad you found people. It sounds like you worked really hard at it

Aster: yeah. Yeah. I was pretty determined. I would say early on my, my earliest encounters with transmasc folks was folks that it was much more binary. I feel like My generation, as far as people in my adjacent age range, mostly a few years older than me, we're really trying to push the envelope and making more space for a variety of like gender expression

Aster: Because I Think I identified as butch because it was the closest thing to male that I could like get to safely As a teenager, you know in high school But I definitely remember feeling more like sometimes I have a more feminine gender expression, even though I feel male and that was like, so not okay amongst the [00:30:00] trans men that I, the handful that I knew, in my late teens, early 20s and that is definitely something that I saw burgeoning in Portland at that time was people saying, Hey, but I, Hey, Want to wear makeup sometimes and wear sparkly things or whatever, you know, and making space for that to be okay I think was a big thing that was happening here.

Jackal: I think it's really interesting because we've talked about this on the show quite a bit recently, at least, about cisgender men having a range of gendered expression, right? I mean, Whether they're gay or straight, there's guys that like to wear makeup, or like to wear sparkly things, or wear pink, or whatever. When I think about it, Kai and I, early on, I think in Season 1, had the conversation of, does it trigger you to be called girlfriend, hey girlfriend, cause I'm a gay guy. Right. So for me, people are calling you girlfriend all the [00:31:00] time and it was so triggering. Right. You're misgendering me. Like it's this different beast that goes on in my head. And I had to let that go at some point where it's actually being part of the crew, you're in crowd

Aster: Yeah. It's actually affirming.

Jackal: it's actually affirming, right? But I think for us, especially like those of us who transitioned in the nineties and before, we were very this was. What it meant to be a man. And this is definitely how you have to act like a trans man. And I remember actually trans women as well.

Jackal: Right? Like, so wearing dresses, wearing makeup, , like having this thing that's really done. And I always thought how limited that was as an AFAB expression body at the time. , I was like, women are all kinds of things. You don't have to be a trans woman and only be this. And yet when I transitioned, I did exactly the same thing.

Aster: I definitely felt that way like I remember when I went to the first True Spirit Conference that I went [00:32:00] to being like, I mean for me that was a huge stumbling block I think wrestling with my gender identity when I was coming out was like, at the time, I was only attracted to women, and I was like, I guess that means I'm a heterosexual man now?

Aster: And I was just like, this does not feel right, like this does not feel right, at all. It was like, so ardently feminist and Riot Grrrl music and culture was huge in the Pacific Northwest in the 90s, and I was lucky enough to get to be a part of that and around that as a teenager. So to then say, I'm trying to do this thing that is bringing me more to a true expression of my identity, and then being told, well, that means you're a straight dude now. There needs to be more room for people, you know, and then I actually started Hanging out in the radical fairy community when I was in my early mid twenties, and at that time, at least on the West Coast where, where I am, it was, the [00:33:00] majority was cis, queer, male identified folks. And to what you're saying, Jackal, I remember very early on in that community being like, this is so affirming in some ways, because there are all these male identified people wearing dresses and sparkles and running around in the woods and calling me girlfriend.

Aster: And similarly, I remember the first time that happened at a radical fairy gathering, and I was like, Oh my god, they're totally reading me as trans, and this is super fucked up, and then like by the end of that gathering, I was like, oh no, this is actually they're accepting me

Kai: I think some of the messages that you're touching on, even if it's implied that we were supposed to present in a certain way in certain circles, like I remember first being exposed to trans guys that were very much of the binary and very much non disclosing stealth, and it felt so restrictive to me and I was Monitoring my own behavior about my mannerisms, how I dressed, how I walked around those guys because I [00:34:00] felt too feminine and I would sashay versus strut, it's like different presentation in it really wasn't until I met other queer identified trans guys and gay trans guys that I felt at home with my people, and it's just a difference. It's not right or wrong. I didn't feel comfortable going down that restrictive lane. And I also want to just acknowledge that I felt in some ways, because I was brought up in that, I felt a little threatened by folks calling themselves gender queer. And I remember having discussions with someone who was from the Northwest, and they were trying to equate their experience with mine. And while there are some similarities, once I physically transitioned and socially transitioned, I felt like our differences were pretty vast? I remember having a conversation about that and feeling like, what is it about this person's presentation? Their nail polish and how they present that's really bothering me in some way, so that was something that was a very informative and difficult thing for me [00:35:00] to wrap my head around and very much at odds with how we should be.

Kai: So our show is called Stealth, a Transmasculine Podcast, and we have to ask about this what does stealth mean to you, Aster?

Aster: I would say I am more stealth right now in my life than I have been ever, which is for me a trip because I'm a nurse, I work in intensive care, and I work at a community hospital, on the outskirts of Portland, and it is an extremely heteronormative work environment, you know, not that there aren't other queer folks that work at that hospital, but overall I am not very out at work, and I have a female partner, and so the way that I am viewed, by heteronormative society is as a straight man, which is as I said, the first time in my life, I, you know, Mostly living in Portland, have had the privilege of [00:36:00] really being able to live in a pretty queer bubble most of my adult life once I found community and intentionally so, because that has always felt safer to me and I have not really ever wanted to be someone that had to be super closeted or stealth. So I went back to school In my mid thirties, graduated from nursing school when I was 37 and that being in nursing school and then entering my career as a nurse is really the first time that I have had that experience of being much more stealth in my life.

Aster: And it's, it's a mixed bag for me. Sometimes I feel really invisible. I would say I feel more invisible now than I have probably since I was a teenager in some ways., my life is in a really different place now, so it's not unsettling in the way that it was. At that time, because I have really solid community around me these days, but I had been a nurse for almost three years [00:37:00] when COVID hit, and then I actually Transitioned into working in intensive care, pretty early on in the pandemic.

Aster: So I have developed these pretty intense, trauma bonds with my coworkers. I work in a pretty small intensive care unit and I'm very deeply connected to a lot of folks that I work with because of what we've been through together. But yet I'm not out to most of them, which is. Such a head fuck to me a lot of the time, and I think it's a lot of what that Feeling and experience is a lot of what led me to seek out y'all's podcast, you know what I'm like,

Aster: A lot of my long time trans male friends have moved out of the area over the years and I'm a parent now I have a three year old kiddo and my life is just in such a different place where I feel in a lot of ways more isolated, my partner and I, yeah.

Aster: Being able to appear as a [00:38:00] hetero relationship from the outside and now being parents, I think, get pushed into that kind of paradigm even more. So, I will say that, for me, stealth, there's certainly a huge element of safety for me in that and I always feel like I have been able to kind of code switch and move in and out.

Aster: If I'm traveling and I'm in the middle of nowhere at a rest stop in the middle of the country, I'm certainly Gonna pitch my voice in a certain way and walk in a certain way into the restroom at the truck stop to feel more safe. So for me, I feel like stealth is a lot about safety being in the world that we live in and depending on the environment that I'm moving through.

Jackal: I have a follow up. And that is, you know, you're in this relationship, very bonded relationship with your colleagues and and you're not out to them. Is there any feeling of like, it's too late to come out to them. Is there any desire to come out to somebody at any point and be like, I don't know if I can now because it's been too long.

Aster: [00:39:00] Yeah I definitely feel that. I've been this workplace, in this hospital for almost three years now. And I've wrestled with that. I've talked about it with my partner, with friends, with my therapist. Obviously I don't believe the narrative that I'm hiding something from you and I've like betrayed you.

Aster: I think that obviously is, that's a narrative that gets foisted on us a lot though, the whole deception thing. And I really, I honestly. Believe that most of my coworkers would probably be fine if I came out to them about it, but I just don't want it to all of a sudden become like the center of attention.

Aster: It's this mix of like, I want to be my authentic self. And I also don't want to all of a sudden be fielding a bunch of invasive questions from folks that I otherwise know pretty well, you know? It's sort of a mixed bag. I do think about it. I think I have been pushing myself to have more casual conversations with some of my coworkers that I feel like you know, more like I can [00:40:00] anticipate what their reaction will be when I disclose to them. So that's kind of been my strategy is just to have kind of one on one conversations with folks slowly. But also part of it is the nature of just the hospital that I work in is a smaller community hospital and the unit that I work on is pretty small so it's like you can't, there's not like.

Aster: Oh, we're alone in this hallway or this area where we can have a more confidential conversation. Most of the time if I'm talking to somebody, everyone else around is going to be hearing it. So that's part of it, I think, too, is it's just not a lot of opportunity to have more private conversations.

Kai: And I really understand how challenging it can be to make decisions about disclosure and I think there's a protective factor we want. We're genuinely concerned about our safety. And while, you have a sense that the people would be very supportive one of the things that you're concerned about is that folks would somehow put you on the spot and ask questions [00:41:00] that cross a line that you normally wouldn't talk about.

Kai: I can just guess what those are. That really resonates with me and I, when you went into the job, when you went into nursing school and you entered this, , you're aster, you're showing up, you're in a new learning environment, it's a professional world, right? Did you consciously decide I'm not going to share or disclose?

Aster: I consciously decided I didn't want to just share that up front because I wanted a chance to develop relationships with people. Also, I have not been in a professional world like this prior to becoming a nurse, I have done a lot of things to make money in my life, but I never completed college before going to nursing school, and the jobs that I had, the environments that they were in it was a lot more casual. I was able to be myself. I was largely around people in my own community and a lot of the jobs that I've done in the past. So, I think part of it was just like. I have no idea what to [00:42:00] expect. I think being in school in particular, like nursing school is hard. It's not an easy thing to get through.

Aster: And I think at that time I was just thinking, I want to focus on getting through this program and getting into my career. And don't want this to be Like people's focused interests or inappropriate questions or whatever to be distracting me

Kai: This is an interesting line of questioning. One, I want to thank you for the work that you've done as a nurse and then working through COVID and probably seeing things that would be very trauma inducing, so I really want to thank you for that and mention that. As you were going through your school, I imagine the way that the material was presented and the work that the practicums that you were doing, maybe not have included as much trans related or non binary related information. Did you feel any sort of tension there where it felt like I should mention,, are they excluding trans people or [00:43:00] LGBTQ plus people? Did you feel any of that as you went through your schooling? Yeah.

Aster: and I feel like I was walking a lot and I feel like I still do this walking a line of I really am uncomfortable with just sitting back and not speaking up. So I have been continually trying to walk this line of, I'm going to stand up and advocate. But I'm not sure if I'm going to actually disclose in the process of that and so I think I just confuse the hell out of people a lot because I'm like, they're seeing me as this hetero guy, but yet I seem to have this wealth of information about queer trans people.

Jackal: Great. That's great, though. I love that because we've talked about this as well. How do we advocate for trans rights without outing ourselves? We're not obligated to disclose our personal history, We can still advocate. We can still be that cishet white [00:44:00] guy or whatever, everybody sees and advocate, we can still be our own allies and nobody knows that we're actually advocating for ourselves. I think that's amazing. I love thank you so much.

Aster: yeah. I even have the healthcare system that I work for have been involved with helping train. New providers and especially new nurses or new nurses to the organization around how to provide more respectful care to trans and gender diverse patients. And I don't historically out myself even in those sessions, which, is still, again, sort of like a head fuck, but I'm always trying to ride that line of like, how useful is this?

Aster: How, potentially dangerous or uncomfortable does that feel? To me, and also, how much, if I disclose, will that distract from actually the information that I'm trying to share if the focus turns into personalizing it about me specifically, and I'm trying [00:45:00] to, provide information to folks that are, is about a much broader population than just my experience to

Kai: We run into these situations and these circumstances so often, and that's what makes this show so great because. There are times where we could speak up and maybe share some information or some knowledge about something that would be very in community, really unlikely for someone like me to know if I weren't trans. And also I think, man, it's quite an opportunity for people who are allies, who know something about us to do that for us, to step up for us, to advocate for us. I've had some of the best care ever in rural environments. I really appreciate the work that you're doing.

 I just love this interview.

Jackal: Aster what are some milestones or important moments in your life post transition?

Aster: So many. Definitely becoming a parent is a huge thing for me. My partner and I became parents through open adoption. Our kiddo is. three and we adopted him shortly after birth. [00:46:00] So that has been a huge milestone and has shifted my whole life. We have a really unique. Open adoption, I think, in that our kiddos birth parents are quite involved in his life and in our family life. They both identify as queer and actually chose us to be his adoptive parents because they wanted him to be in an environment that was really queer affirming. Who knows who he's gonna be, but that felt really important to them. So we actually Have a lot of contact with his birth family, which is cool. I think that it's the best possible scenario for him. So that definitely has hugely changed my life in a lot of ways. I think,

Kai: okay. I'm happy to be partnered with somebody who's adopted and disclosing about adoption can be a thing, right? It's an issue for persons who are adopted. And so how did you as a family. Extended family decide to share information. I know your [00:47:00] kid's only three, but have you thought about that?

Kai: Like how you may present this information as. He grows up.

Aster: We are very open about it already, like we always have been. He's a little buddy still, so it's as much as his, developmental stage can wrap his little brain around. But we, from the beginning, have been really transparent about it. This is your birth parent. You grew inside this person's Belly, as he understands it now, and then you were born and you came home to us when you were two days old, we talk about it, and I think as much as he can conceptualize it at three, he is very aware of where he comes from and how his particular family structure has come into being.

Kai: I think it's going to be something that your kid's going to come up against too. It's more common to come from families that have multiple parents and caregivers and there may be times over his life where he's going to have to decide how much or how little to share about his family constellation? Thank you for sharing that.

Aster: When we eventually decided to adopt, it felt really important to both of [00:48:00] us that it be open adoption. My older sister is adopted, and, at the time, she was born in 69, so closed adoption was really like the only way it happened for the most part at that time, and I just have really seen her struggle her whole life with that, and I know that's not always the case for everyone who is an adoptee through closed adoption, but it just felt really important to both of us, I think, having witnessed that experience of hers, and then having other adult friends who are adoptees, that have had similar so much.

Aster: Struggles that it felt important to both of us,

Jackal: Well, interesting. Hey, I want to circle back to something. It might be a milestone, it might not, but what's your relationship with your parents like now?

Aster: Much better. It took a long time. My, so my parents are married still they're, you know, I'm 43, but they are solidly baby boomers. My mom was a bit older when I was born. I'm the youngest of four. And it was tough for [00:49:00] them. I reconnected with my mom, I think, earlier on. We never were like completely cut off communication.

Aster: There, it was tough. Yeah. Yeah. really difficult for a long time. My my dad, once I started to medically transition, he never said it was about this, but he did not go out in public with me for almost a decade after I started transition. So there's definitely a lot of hardship there.

Aster: And,

Jackal: Heartache,

Aster: I think because of the age that I was when I came out, I had not really developed my own relationships with my extended family outside of through my parents you know, how it is often as a kid so I kind of lost my extended family for a long time too, because my parents both wanted to disclose to their respective sides of the family, in their own time my mom ended up doing that a lot earlier than my dad and I have a [00:50:00] two older siblings through my, just, we have the dad in common and cousins and stuff on his side and my grandparents who are now passed on, but I didn't see them or have any contact with them for almost a decade, so they all were like, oh, we just thought you just disappeared, or maybe you were, living on the street, or like really wrapped up in addiction or something that like you were just out of touch with the family and then in my late 20s getting in touch with them again They were all pissed Honestly, and they have varying levels of , they're actually all conservative politically but Since they found out Been, like, but you're our, brother, cousin, whatever. And feel like that's super messed up that we didn't have the opportunity to know you for all those years .

Kai: Again, it's a great line of questioning because when we're starting this out and we're disclosing to people around us, there's no rule book on how to do this. There's no guide. Maybe there is now a guidebook like guidelines for coming out to everybody, but you

Jackal: Kai and [00:51:00] Jackal's guide for coming out.

Kai: Because I felt. There was a lot of shame and I never said to them, are you going to tell the extended family, both sides of the family? And I never knew when people knew or how they found out. I took a break too. And I know that I wasn't attending events and my absence was noted. And since that time, when I reentered the big extended family, they were fantastic, and they were great. And we're from very different worldviews. And I hear you there. What was that like for you to not be a part of that?

Aster: I. Honestly, at the time, just felt like that is part of the trans experience. I mean, that's so much of just what I saw around me, what I read, and, you know, trans people's writing and so, I just thought that's how it was. I was really busy trying to build my own chosen family, you know, within community. That's always been super important to me. I [00:52:00] think in some ways, it really pushed me to have to develop these, deeper supportive chosen family relationships with people, and some of those people I'm still close with, you know, like 20 years later which is cool. But my parents now,. I think it really helps that my life on the outside makes a lot more sense to them. I went back to college and have this professional job now, and I'm with a long term partner, and we are parents, and my life is something that's a lot easier for them to wrap their heads around now than when I was, like, this queer punk kid, like, barely getting by financially, hitchhiking around or traveling to these weird hippie gatherings in the woods,

Kai: Jackal's going to fall more and more in love with you

Aster: my my life is a lot more palatable, I think to them now, so it's, I think that makes it easier, but they have also grown, you know, over the years.

Kai: Thank you.

Jackal: Do you have any other challenges that you have overcome in your life? It sounds like family [00:53:00] is definitely one of them, but what are some of the greatest challenges that you've overcome?

Aster: Whew. So many things. I. I really try to be transparent in talking about mental health stuff. I have struggled with anxiety and depression, like, my whole life since I was a teenager. And so that's something that is ongoing for me. I am currently really trying to reflect on and work through a lot of the PTSD that I have realized I'm carrying as a result of being a nurse in ICU through a global pandemic. So that to me, a day that I can do some self care, which for me can look like a lot of different things, but it's a lot harder being a parent of a young kid to carve out that time for myself, but, if I can do some yoga or go for a walk in the woods or sit down and read a book for 20 minutes.

Aster: You know, really, one of the biggest things I think that I find are [00:54:00] helpful for me well, in addition to therapy and medication and herbs is having a mindfulness practice in my life, , and just trying to be accepting of the flow of emotions. As they move through and just trying to be okay with where I'm at, but also trying to be proactive about my mental health, because I definitely am a person that can sink into some pretty scary places at times.

Aster: And it's very different now than it was when I was younger, and feeling like I'm so isolated. Am I the only person like me in the world? I have a lot more support now you know, and I'm just, I think a lot more wisdom but It's still a struggle, , I think the world that we live in, obviously I know y'all talk about this on your show, but just the, all the like anti trans legislation that's happening, I think probably for a lot of us in trans community I think especially because I came out at such a young age, like just looking at what trans youth and gender diversity youth are going through Right now, really weighs a lot on my heart, so, I guess that would be one of [00:55:00] the other big hurdles that I think about in my life, is just like, trying to be okay, not being okay, and like, doing the self care that I need to still move through my life and be a good partner and a good parent and nurse and good to myself

Kai: I think when the world is unwell, it's hard to be well,

Aster: It's so true.

Kai: and that's, it's not very, I don't know. It sounds, it might sound

Jackal: poetic. No, that's

Kai: don't know. I mean. Thank you. All right. You mentioned how well supported you are right now, and you also shared with us offline that you might feel a little disconnected from some community. So what kind of support do you have now and what do you imagine you might need as the years gone? Mm-Hmm.

Aster: I definitely have a great chosen family Both folks that live here and folks that live other places that I you know, try to stay in touch with My partner is amazing incredible support from [00:56:00] her. I definitely think about what it's going to look like to age as a trans person, I'm only 43, but I already have seen, what it's like for my body to change. I can't just Take it for granted, like I could 20 years ago I'm not dealing with any major health issues, but definitely have had some stuff come up where I'm like, Oh, yeah, this is middle age is real for me, especially around, some dental issues and, just some other, minor health stuff.

Aster: But I think especially as a nurse, I think a lot about that. I have., had these like imaginings of helping create, whether it's like a actual facility or some kind of organization in the future to help support trans people as we're aging and, that's also partially, largely that's like community service, but also like at least a tiny bit selfish because I want that stuff to be there as I get older too, I do think it's a lot, I find it's a lot easier For myself to feel disconnected because [00:57:00] when I was in my teens and twenties, we needed, I, this is my perception, we needed each other just like for survival and I don't, the urgency isn't there as much now and so I feel like it's a lot easier for me to kind of drift and not feel as connected and I just have noticed in my own life that I have A lot of queer and non binary folks in my life, but a number of the people that I've been really close to that identify as trans men have just by happenstance moved away or whatever, and so I've really been missing that piece. So that's something that I definitely recognize as I get older, is I have to make a much more concerted effort to feel connected with community.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: How do you think you can, how do you think that's gonna happen?

Aster: Well, I'm trying to figure out. It's like, you know, I like, you know, again I'm lucky to live in a place where there is a lot of trans community. I've been making an effort to just try to [00:58:00] have hangout time with other trans mask folks, in my own generation and that for me is I have to really push myself to make those connections and my life is just really busy too, you know, working full time, my partner works full time or parents.

Aster: So, a lot of it is just making the effort to make those connections with people and maintain them like friendships take continuous effort. And

Kai: have other folks who are parents? That level of support can be really important. I know it's hard to relate. If you are hanging out with people who don't have kids we can just go out and at the drop of a hat most of the time. And then you have a kid.

Kai: So it's like, you can't just leave it, you know, leave a kid at home to fend for himself.

Aster: It's true.

Kai: You have other friends who are parents.

Aster: I will say that we are the only folks in our closest community that are parents. So we have both been making an effort to cultivate those connections more with other folks, you know, especially other queer parents [00:59:00] and and I know some folks that are queer parents.

Aster: It's just not the close, the people that I've been closest with. So definitely making more of an intentional effort to connect with other queer parents. And then other parents of adoptees feels important. Those things, they're not always crossing over, but no, that does feel super important.

Aster: And it's something that is a journey right now, for sure, for my partner and I feel like she's honestly a lot better at being proactive about reaching out to folks, but it's something that's happening. I think we're making an effort. Yeah. Both for our kiddo and for us to have those connections.

Jackal: So, Aster, what would you say to the newer generation of trans and non-binary folk? It doesn't have to be trans youth necessarily, but just newly transitioning folks.

Aster: Don't discount the importance of community support. I think that from my experience, that is so vital to develop those [01:00:00] relationships. With for me what I consider chosen family. I think also reaching out. It's I think in the era of my own experience of the internet social media era is it can be a lot easier to connect on a superficial level with folks and find other people that maybe share similar experience.

Aster: And I also in my life feel like I've seen a trend that

Jackal: Okay.

Aster: It can, that can be at the sacrifice of developing deeper relationships and that those deeper relationships in my life have really been what have buoyed me through some really hard shit. So, and then I think also to learn about who came before you and in terms of.

Aster: A lot of people have done a lot of work to make the space that exists. And that's, I think that's our generation, but it's also people before us. I definitely, I feel really lucky that I came out. In a way [01:01:00] that I was taught to respect my queer elders and take the time to listen to their stories and understand all the work. Do my best to understand the work that was done. That, we're all really standing on each other's shoulders.

Jackal: And is there anything that you think we should have asked that we didn't? Any famous last words of wisdom?

Aster: I think just that trans people have always been here and we will always be here despite. People trying to legislate us out of existence or , throw hate at us or all the things that are happening, I think, on a political and social level in this country in the U. S. right now and we have such a long lineage behind us that is so beautiful, , and I really try to think about it as my queer and trans ancestors holding me up, and I really draw a lot of strength from that because it can feel, I think, devastating at times to feel like I am just one little solitary human being trying to struggle through this world, [01:02:00] but we really do have a whole lineage behind us that you know, and then we'll be those ancestors for future generations of queer and trans people,

Jackal: Yeah, totally.

Aster: that's a really beautiful thing.

Jackal: I do too. And I just want to say, throwing all the hate at us, we are still lovable and we are loved. That is an important message to get out there and keep saying to ourselves and to each other.

Aster: I just echo that like that we really we are lovable and we create that for ourselves, you know, we can create those communities and circles for ourselves and for each other. We don't need to look to a hierarchical structure outside of ourselves to create that for us.

Aster: We can do it for ourselves.

Jackal: It's been a really rich interview and I really appreciate your time today. So don't

Aster: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Kai: Thank you so much, Aster. We want to thank you for your time. Thank you for your insight, your stories, very rich conversation today. And thank you for reaching out to us. We so appreciate it. You have reminded us what it was like to be [01:03:00] trans and coming out back in the day. All the different things that come up, both with family, within our work lives.

Kai: So, we're happy that you came back. You're within the fold. You've got us. We are a community of brothers. We have that special bond. And we are not going anywhere.

Jackal: And keep reaching out to us if you need connection.

Aster: Yeah, absolutely no, I really appreciate it I really super appreciate what y'all are doing, you know The community that you're helping create and I feel like y'all are helping foster those Dialogues and help create that community.

Kai: Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you for being a part of our show.

Jackal: Thank you.

Aster Reflections

Jackal: Yeah. What'd you think of Aster's interview?

Kai: Okay. Well, one, I'm really glad that he reached out. He approached us. So if anybody's listening and wants to be on our show, email us, we will get back to you and we can make this happen. Yeah. So really grateful about that. And then I really appreciate that he brought his experience as a younger person, starting out in the Pacific Northwest and the conservative place. The thing that [01:04:00] stuck out from the first part of the interview was just feeling, body feeling when he, he was talking about his family, and his parents, and how that was a really tough one for all of them and how he took some space from them, you know, and he was being very gracious and how he described it.

Kai: And I, it just sounds really hard.

Jackal: Yeah.

Kai: There were so many things that were bright spots in that interview. what did you think of the interview today when our time with Aster?

Jackal: Yeah. Well, if you want to talk about a bright spot, like just becoming a parent, like that's

Kai: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Jackal: You know, of course I connect with the idea and ideology of being a young punk, you know,

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jackal: kind of thing you'll figure and but you know, like getting your life together kind of later on, you know, like it's, it's a, it's a common story for us.

Jackal: It's common story. You know, we've talked about you and I,

Kai: Mm

Jackal: we transitioned in our thirties, right? Like, so him being a younger guy, you know, like I didn't have my shit together when I was [01:05:00] 18. Yeah. I didn't have my shit together when I was 18 at all. And I didn't transition for another 10 years, 15 years, right?

Jackal: So For me, at least he was ahead of the game a little bit like he, you know, like he didn't have a shit together and he was transitioning

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jackal: that's what you're supposed to do at 18 like it's okay. And, you know, getting it together later on and now having a family and, and a job and, and I feel very proud of him, you know,

Kai: Me too. Yeah. That's a great way to say it. And I think you and I both, , having gone to college late and struggled financially and I, I don't know too much about your family relationships at the time when you were transitioning, but mine were strained for a bit and supportive, at the same time.

Kai: His description of, yeah. Having that disappear, you know, even if he was in contact with his mom throughout that time, it just sounded really tough. And his ability to find [01:06:00] other trans guys to help him get through that, that just seems to be most everybody we talk to. And I know that was true for me, that creates that bond that is so imprinted on us.

Jackal: Yeah, it's interesting for me, talking about family, like I was close to my mom and dad later on in life. I think I've mentioned that a bit, but I grew up in a blended family. Right. And we didn't practice the religion. In fact, I was forbidden to pray at the table even over dinner. And the youngest and I got told for a good six years of my life that as soon as I graduated high school, they were moving out, they were moving and I didn't have it. So like,

Kai: Yeah. Wow.

Jackal: so it was for me because it's like for them. You know, even being gracious [01:07:00] to my parents for them, it was like they started the relationship with basically preteens and teenagers and had no kind of self time for themselves.

Jackal: And so they were looking forward to the empty nest so that they could be kind of honeymooners for the first time. But for me, as a kid, That was a traumatic message, right? Like that was a traumatic message that it was like, was not loved. I was not, they did not care for me.

Jackal: They did not give two cents. And I was out, like I was out as soon as I turned 18, right? Yeah. So, my story is a little bit different in that way. And so for me, my parents didn't give a shit about me from the beginning, so it's like whatever. And that's part of probably why, why I was such a rebel anarchist, fuck you and every authority on the planet because, by the time I was 18, I was going to be [01:08:00] on my own. And so we're talking six years by the time I was 12, I started getting that message.

Kai: Oh, yeah.

Jackal: You know, I started getting that message probably even earlier than that, but

Kai: Mm

Jackal: at least cognitively, by the time I was 12, I had the message that they were going to be moving out. They were going to be moving out. I wasn't welcome. I wasn't welcome. I wasn't welcome. Anyway. So this isn't about me, but but that just kind of gives you an overall idea about like how my relationship to family is completely different,

Kai: Mm hmm.

Jackal: than that. And the one thing that stuck out to me, again, this is about me, but it's my own self centeredness. Here's this kid at 18 that we might have crossed paths, like, true spirit or some gathering And I don't know anything about him. I don't care anything about him because I'm 30 and I'm newly transitioning and I'm focused on me, the ego and the self centeredness of like that, like finding yourself and [01:09:00] transitioning.

Jackal: Yeah, that kind of struck me that kind of, I kind of ouched myself. I was like, Ooh, like, Oh, you know, I wonder if I could have been there for people and I wasn't because I was so self centered in my own process and stuff like that. So

Kai: Interestingly once he disclosed to his parents that he was trans, that that sort of closed the doors on extended family, and in some ways I'm like, Okay, it'd be great if there was a, a guidebook to know how to do this so that you could alert everyone, which you can now in social media, you just come out on Instagram or Facebook, but, but to do it in a way that's really thoughtful and connected, stay connected with people.

Kai: And, and you're right, Jackal, I think that time, during transition. The focus on self, it makes a lot of sense. You can only handle and be there for so many people. Your body, if you're medically transitioning, your body chemistry is changing and your mood is impacted. And you're just, your sense of who you are. It is an immense process. Transition is no joke. It's no [01:10:00] small matter. You're not just going down to the store for a tomato.

Jackal: Put a couple of tomatoes in my pants to make it bulge better.

Kai: you go. Yeah.

Jackal: Oops, that's squished.

Kai: We don't know how it's going to be, we, there's so much uncertainty at that time, who's going to love me. What am I going to do? How am I going to support myself? Where can I live, and he touched on that a lot. He's trying to figure that out at age 17 or 18, and us is 30 year olds, 31 year olds. I barely, I was jumping from house to house and had lots of roommates was trying to make ends meet, and how that plays out in life. He's a scrapper, I really appreciated that that Astor was talking about his job as a nurse and his experience being a consumer of healthcare and getting substandard care that wasn't affirming.

Kai: He said it a lot nicer than I am, was prompting him, helped him become a better nurse. And man, he, he went through COVID in a intensive care unit and [01:11:00] I, You know, I know. So again, I really am sincerely thanking him and express such appreciation for him and the people like him.

Jackal: I also want to say one more thing about him as that health care provider piece. And that is because we've talked about this a little bit before. He's an advocate for us, he's an advocate for us without disclosing, or at least low disclosure, and I love that because so many of us struggle with , I can't advocate because then I'm going to be out myself,

Kai: Yeah.

Jackal: When we don't want to be outed necessarily, especially in professional work environments, right? And. You can do both and he's doing both and I so appreciate that both as a role model and just that he's doing it, right? I think he's, he's offered so much. So I appreciate this

Kai: reminded me of all about Adam episode number one, where Adam is talking about being misgendered and Adam, Adam is talking [01:12:00] about how he can be, he can be at peace when people assume that he's a CIS straight white male, that he can be the type of public presenting person he wants to be in and show masculinity in a way that he wants.

Kai: it to be seen. So he hugs everybody. He's all the things. Shout out to all the Portland folks that were stirring things up back in the day.

Kai: Willie Boy zine and Gender Machine Works and some of the other folks that we're there for him.

Jackal: girls

Kai: Yeah, exactly. Just the different representations. Man, I'm so glad things are flexing and I'm so glad that doesn't feel threatening to me anymore. I don't know if that means I'm a better person, but it certainly feels less, less stressful.

Jackal: You know, I mean, if you feel like does you better, like for me, it's like if I hold anxiety or stress or anything, it makes me less healthy, you know? So if I'm not holding anxiety and stress about something, [01:13:00] then it makes me healthier. So if that is better, healthier is better, you know, then yeah, you're a better person.

Kai: Exactly. And then as he was considering his life moving, I think the question you asked him was like, what would you say to younger or newer, newly transitioning folks? And he was talking about implications of decisions as a young person and how that impacts health. I really appreciate that we got to meet him.

Jackal: Me too. Like our third or fourth person who's reached out to us this season.

Kai: Yeah, I know we're going to have,

Jackal: it's exciting. I'm excited about that.

Kai: exactly. Me too. So keep reaching out and nice work today, Jekyll.

Jackal: Nice work to you, Kai.

Kai: All right. Thank you.

Kai: CONTENT WARNING

Kai: I want to provide a content warning today. During our podcast today, we're going to be talking about the passing of a young non-binary person. We're providing a resource in our episode notes. Please be sure to check it out.

Jackal: And now it's time for Transponder. [01:14:00] So today's Transponder news would be remiss without mentioning the death of Neps Benedict, a 16 year old who died a day following being assaulted in their high school bathroom, and who identified as genderfluid. On Saturday, February 24th, more than 500 people filled the A Point Gallery, a venue in Oklahoma City's LGBTQ plus community haven, while at least 100 others gathered in the street outside watching the vigil on their phones via live stream.

Jackal: The vigil hosted by Rural Oklahoma Pride and Point A Gallery was one of many memorial events held Saturday around Oklahoma. Brian Paddock, one of the co founders of Rural Oklahoma Pride, said his organization wanted to bring people together because he said a vigil is an event where a stance is taken to light the pathway forward.

Jackal: Rest in peace. Next Benedict. And in support [01:15:00] of my women's history banter, I wanted to quote a Washington Post article from 2023 by Kelsey Burke, feminists have long supported trans rights in a new survey of more than 5, 000 Americans. The Public Religion Research Institute, P. R. R. I., found that the vast majority of feminists support transgender rights.

Jackal: A resounding 81 percent of self identified feminist respondents opposed laws that prevent children from receiving medical care for gender transition, compared with only 56 of Americans as a whole. While one in three Americans say it is never appropriate to teach that some people are transgender in K 12 education.

Jackal: Public schools, only one in 10 feminists in the surveys agreed. While social media is aflame with debates about TERFs, the empirical and historical evidence is clear. [01:16:00] Most American feminists are far from trans exclusionary and have long been among the most supportive groups of LGBTQ equality. Feminists have debated over time whether and how to support LGBTQ rights, but they have never as a whole, neither today nor in the past, discriminated in large measure against trans people and their allies.

Jackal: Good to know. If you have trans joy that you would like us to share on our Instagram, please contact Kira at our Instagram page at transmasculinepodcast. We enjoy your comments and look forward to hearing from you. Lastly, this show would be nothing without our guests, who share their insight Expertise and heartfelt stories.

Jackal: We absolutely adore you and are forever grateful to you.

Kai: Good job today, Jekyll. Good job to you, Kai. Thank you for listening to today's podcast. Stealth tries to capture stories of those who transitioned before. the year [01:17:00] 2000. We recognize that language has its limitations. The words we use to describe ourselves and our community evolve over time and will not represent everyone's experience.

Kai: We also want you to know that the health and well being of our community is our number one priority.

Jackal: In fact, we want to give a shout out to parents who are supporting their gender non conforming kids. Supporting your child in the development and expression of their identity is not child abuse. We support you and love you for supporting your kids.

Jackal: We fully anticipate that people and groups will express positivity and negativity in response to our stories. We're prepared to deal with this, and as you know, thrilled to be one small part of our community.

Kai: We offer links to health and safety resources on our website, we monitor our social media platforms, we respond to feedback from our audience, and we will be accountable when we screw

Jackal: up.

Jackal: We want you to know that we are just two guys doing this in our spare time. As we enter season four, we are getting better, but we are still rookies [01:18:00] and still two old farts to boot. So we ask that you still be patient with us as we learn the ropes and find our way. The opinions expressed on our podcast are our own and those of our guests.

Jackal: We do not represent any outside entity.

Kai: Remember, if you're interested in sharing your story, we would love to hear from you. If you're interested in volunteering, please let us know. Your feedback and support are essential to our show's success. podcast. Tell your friends, share on social media, and rate us on your favorite streaming platform.

Kai: You can find us on Instagram, Transmaskingpodcast. On X, formerly Twitter. At podcast stealth on youtube stealth the trans masculine podcast and be sure to check out our website Transmasculinepodcast. com Thank

Jackal: you for joining us until next time [01:19:00] You